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Thread: Germanic-Albanian similarities

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Some lexical sharings are with Germanic only of course. Likewise there are exclusive isoglosses between each of the pairs.

    It is possible that the ancestors of the Germanics and Albanians subsisted on the backs of the same pre-IE agricultural population I guess.
    I don't like the word 'isoglosse 'for lexicon, I prefer keep it for phonetics.
    Concerning shared roots at an exclusive level between languages, it occurs often here and there and according to the words you choose, you can "marry" different families of languages of same deep origin: I think I can give you some common cognates in Celtic and Slavic and they don't prove Celtic was particuliarly close to Slavic. it occurred even between close dialects of the same language, when some earlier words common to the whole family were lost here and there, remaining only in some of them, sometimes at the extreme ends of the family territory, without peculiar link with roads or trade.
    I have not time to look at just now, but this thread is interesting nevertheless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Orel on Albanian-Greek isoglosses. These are shared between Alb and Greek only, and happened in a secondary location (i.e. not in the PIE honeland but after the tribes had moved out).

    IMO a good candidate for this is Epirus. The terms are also pretty basic and agricultural

    You're absolutely spot on about the ancestor of Albanian likely predating Greek in the Balkans, though I would say that Greek almost definitely would have come down from the area of Thrace rather than Epirus, so we would probably be talking about a meeting point east of that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Highly unlikely that hund and kan are related. In Albanian the 't' or 'd' endings are lost after 'n', not added. Same goes to 'b' or 'p' after 'n' or 'm'.
    Surely hund and kan are related: PIE *k- gave regularly X- (kh) in very old Germanic and h- today;
    'hound' is 'qen' in today Albanian. so no -nd in Albanian. You missed something, I think.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Orel on Albanian-Greek isoglosses. These are shared between Alb and Greek only, and happened in a secondary location (i.e. not in the PIE honeland but after the tribes had moved out).

    IMO a good candidate for this is Epirus. The terms are also pretty basic and agricultural



    indeed it is funny,

    for example thelle Albanian with Greek κοιλος, so the Albanian belly is thellea? compare Greek κοιλια?
    or the Albanian uje =water with Greek Υδρια !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! while Υδωρ = water like Brygian Edu

    I only see crap here,
    which where reposted,

    I think if it is Orel's work
    it is just a cheap work,

    THE MOST AMAZING BULLSHIT OF THE POST,
    Albanian ndyj Greek Δυω,

    comparing English Dive
    THEN ALBANIAN IS ISOGLOSSES WITH ENGLISH ALSO ????



    just crup.


    LETS LOOK ANOTHER ONE

    the Bee

    Greek Melissa follows the IE female ending -issa (compare Βασιλισσα, )
    and uses the word honey = μελι
    so it is what? honey + ending -ssa typical ending for Greek and Anatolian languages ending (Anah-itta Anak-issa)

    Albanian Mjalce,
    I do no not know Albanian,
    but if the word for honey is Mjal is ok?
    if the albanian word for honey is not mjal? then?
    and is it typical ancient Albanian female anding -ce????
    or could a loan?

    SO I SEE JUST CRAP HERE,
    FOR EVEN IN BULGARIA AND OTHER BALKAN COUNTRIES THE 'HONEY' is MEL,
    pathetic posts
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Radoslav Katicic describing Milan Budmirs opinion on Alb:



    HAHAHAHA

    Agin that post,

    only the one who post it does even know or ever read the word of Thomopoulos,

    Thomopoulos make a big mistake,
    and all his work today is just crap.

    He consider that in Aegean and Balkans before Greek there was a language called Pelasgian but from IE origin.
    in his work it is obvious that Celtic origin loans appear as Pelasgian,
    Budimir fall in to the same mistake,

    CAUSE IF THERE WAS AN IE SUBSTRACTUM BEFORE GREEK,
    THEN THE SAME SHOULD BE IN ALBANIAN AND THRACIAN.
    MEANING THAT IT WOULD ABSORVE AND PROVIDE ITS OWN ASPIRATIONS
    SO GREEK ALBANIAN (DACO-THRACIAN) AND THRACIAN SHOULD SHARE SOME SAME CHANGES OF THIS SUBSTRACTUM
    TO ALL THESE 3 LANGUAGES,
    SOMETHING THAT IS NOT YET FOUND. (and never will be)

    SO BUDIMIR FELL TO THE SAME MISTAKE OF THOMOPOULOS<

    the truth is the proto-Greek and proto-Brygian were sprung next to Thracian.
    while Illyrian were that era at today Austria.

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    BTW

    THE THREAD IS ABOUT GERMANIC-ALBANIAN

    so any comparison with Greek.
    IS OUT OF THREAD.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    According to extensive and scientific analyses by linguists I have read, Albanian shares more isoglosses with Balto-Slavic (particularly Baltic in fact), Greek and Germanic, in that descending order (I hope I'm not messing up things in my memory, but I will check it out later). The fact it is not extremely more related to any of the other extant IE branches (you may be sure that there were other IE branches that simply died out before they were written down) suggests to me that Albanian has a really ancient common proto-language with any one of the IE subfamilies we know. That is, its ancestral language probably split off quite early, and somehow it belonged to a part of the original LPIE dialect continuum that was in contact with and/or shared lexical and grammatical traits (innovations or archaisms) with mainly the ancestral dialects of Balto-Slavic, Hellenic and Germanic. Maybe somewhere around the Carpathians or Western Ukraine? I don't know. But I'm certain that the connections are really old and probably happened well before the IE subfamilies consolidated in their respective geographic regions distant from each other.

    EDIT: Or, as Moesan correctly pointed out, it may be that some - though I doubt all - of those closer lexical and phonetic connections just meant that some words and grammatical quirks that were distributed across the PIE dialect continuum were preserved in just a few dialects, but not in others, and that did not necessarily imply they were particularly close to each other, as some remote dialects could just have preserved more words than others (for instance, they may be more archaic, and not sharing innovations).

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ate_hypothesis

    Based on the wiki-page about Germanic substrate hypothesis, we see that some o fthe words have their cognates in Albanian:
    english 'North' - in albanian 'narth' means 'I am feeling cold', or 'it is cold'
    english 'sword' - in albanian 'kordha', with the same meaning
    english 'shield' - in albanian 'shilte' is a hassock
    english 'bow' - in albanian 'bahe' means sling, weapon of David against Goliath
    Icelandic 'drekka' - in albanian 'dreka' means lunch, the portion of middle day (afternoon)

    There also similarities in other fields, which I cannot write here about, f. ex. in mythology, fairy tales etc.
    Those kinds of "visual/audible" comparisons of sound-alikes are fun, but do not have any scientific meaning at all, especially when the words of two particularly divergent languages/language groups are compared (because of course in that case it's much less likely that any two words that are real cognates, and not just similarities caused by random chance, would still look almost identical after thousands of years when the two languages are mostly very different from each other in other lexical and grammatical traits).

    Other than that, Albanian does have many isoglosses with Germanic, but less than with Hellenic and Balto-Slavic. But I'm not sure the examples you've given here are the best examples of such isoglosses. Similarities are not enough. Galician "nai" is a clear cognate of German "mutter" even though the two words don't look or sound much similar at all. To establish real connections between two languages, you'd have to have a look at the comparative vocabulary of the two languages and try to identify and derive regular sound correspondences between them - then you'd be certain that they aren't just random sound-alike words, but actual and probable connections between the two languages. To give you a totally hypothetical example, this is how it really must be done:

    LANGUAGE X ---- probable semantic correspondence in ----- LANGUAGE Y
    drako : llowa
    náikeni : dííwâdh
    kadravi : wollob
    navúli : dobwégh
    painúlo : fiidhwégha

    The words above sound mostly nothing like each other, but if you analyze them as a group of words, and not just individually, you can find regular sound correspondences that make them clear counterparts to each other and make it possible to "guess" the word to a high degree in the other language by applying those "sound rules":
    1) /a/ in X corresponds to /o/ in Y
    2) /k/ in X corresponds to /w/ in Y
    3) /n/ in X corresponds to /d/ (initialy) or /dh/ (medial) in Y
    4) /i/ in X corresponds to a dropped vowel in Y
    5) unstressed /o/ in X corresponds to /a/ in Y
    6) /u/ in X corresponds to /we/ in Y
    7) /ai/ in X corresponds to /íí/ in Y
    8) /l/ in X corresponds to /gh/ in Y
    9) /dr/ in X corresponds to /ll/ in Y

    Of course this is a very simplified example, but that's just to demonstrate that linguistic similarities between two languages do not necessarily - or even most often - imply that the really corresponding words will sound very similar. This kind of mass comparison looking for words that look almost identical can be very misleading, because especially when they're too similar there is a big chance that it's just random chance, coincidence, which is of course always a possibility when you have a limited number of phonemes (mostly 30-40 per language) and dozens or hundreds of thousands of words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    There are other words shared between Germanic and Albanian, which are whole IE:
    Spear - alb. spirrë means thin woods to start fire
    Hungry - alb. Hanger means 'eat'
    Cow - alb. Kau means bull
    Blood - alb. Blatim means sacrifice, offering to the god
    Cave - alb. Guva is a synonim for shpella (cave), shpella is derived from greek spelaeum
    Cow vs. kau is not a specifically Germanic-Albanian isogloss, the PIE root *gwós/gwou- can be found in most IE language groups.

    And cave is not a good example of the Germanic-Albanian connection, because cave is a French loanword of Latin origin into English.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I read Orel's opinion yesterday and he points out that Albanian was spoken in Dacia Ripensis or further north Carpathian Beskids,which some linguist believes that have Albanian etymology,Carpathians and Beskids likewise.I think he dates the Albanian migration a bit before the Roman conquest of Balkans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Neander, these are theories that have been discussed and rediscussed many times. However, read this, maybe you will find it interesting:

    Source: [Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Opera Philologica (Hildesheim: Georg Olms, 1989). Translated from the French by Robert Elsie.]

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1705_Leibniz/index.html

    P.S.
    From my side i will add the possible connection of the Albanian word gosti = feast, banquet in English, with guest in English and gast in German.
    Leibniz's letters sound more like speculation based on little data and previous linguistic research available to him at that time, therefore he has to resort to a lot of immaginative assumptions and mostly rely on on mere sound similarity instead of a more methodic way to assess the connections between the two languages as well as other languages of Europes. I don't think it's a good source after all the huge development of the science of linguistics in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    Anyway, there is certainly a high possibility that gosti is related to guest/gast but it doesn't help us establish the degree of closer connections between Germanic and Albanian, because that same root, Always within the same semantic realm, is also presente in other IE groups like Latin hospes/hospites (hence hospitality and so on - also "guest, one who is received into one's house or land") and in Slavic gosti. By the way, searching for the etymology of Albanian gosti "feast", I saw some sources claiming that it is probably a later loanword from Slavic gosti, because the word missed the effects of vowel reduction in Old Albanian (and it's really almost identical to the Slavic root). I'd like to know the main sound correspondence to PIE *gh-, *ó- and unstressed *i- (the PIE root was *ghóstis) in Albanian to assess the possibility that it's actually na old native word in Albanian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Orel on Albanian-Greek isoglosses. These are shared between Alb and Greek only, and happened in a secondary location (i.e. not in the PIE honeland but after the tribes had moved out).

    IMO a good candidate for this is Epirus. The terms are also pretty basic and agricultural

    I think that the shared isoglosses between Albanian and Germanic,Balto-Slavic is far greater than with any other languages.That is not something bad.Greek language is also not "native" to Greece but came from somewhere,including all other languages spoken in the Balkans today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Surely hund and kan are related: PIE *k- gave regularly X- (kh) in very old Germanic and h- today;
    'hound' is 'qen' in today Albanian. so no -nd in Albanian. You missed something, I think.
    Hund is the Albanian word for 'nose' and kan/ken became 'qen'. So 'kan' became either 'qen' or 'hund' (adding the 'd' at the end as I said) not both.

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    Albanian language has some loan words from the Gothic language and that is well known.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albani...e#Gothic_loans

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Albanian language has some loan words from the Gothic language and that is well known.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albani...e#Gothic_loans

    I always found it interesting that the common proto-indo-european root for Mother / Mater / Mutter in Albanian is used for Sister instead.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Hund is the Albanian word for 'nose' and kan/ken became 'qen'. So 'kan' became either 'qen' or 'hund' (adding the 'd' at the end as I said) not both.
    'kan' became 'qen', nothing else, in Albanian, I suppose; and the Albanian 'hund' has nothing to do with Germanic 'hund' then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    'kan' became 'qen', nothing else, in Albanian, I suppose; and the Albanian 'hund' has nothing to do with Germanic 'hund' then.
    Hund means nose in Albanian and dog in German, so you can't say they're not related since there's clearly a connection due to their sense of smell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Leibniz's letters sound more like speculation based on little data and previous linguistic research available to him at that time, therefore he has to resort to a lot of immaginative assumptions and mostly rely on on mere sound similarity instead of a more methodic way to assess the connections between the two languages as well as other languages of Europes. I don't think it's a good source after all the huge development of the science of linguistics in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    Anyway, there is certainly a high possibility that gosti is related to guest/gast but it doesn't help us establish the degree of closer connections between Germanic and Albanian, because that same root, Always within the same semantic realm, is also presente in other IE groups like Latin hospes/hospites (hence hospitality and so on - also "guest, one who is received into one's house or land") and in Slavic gosti. By the way, searching for the etymology of Albanian gosti "feast", I saw some sources claiming that it is probably a later loanword from Slavic gosti, because the word missed the effects of vowel reduction in Old Albanian (and it's really almost identical to the Slavic root). I'd like to know the main sound correspondence to PIE *gh-, *ó- and unstressed *i- (the PIE root was *ghóstis) in Albanian to assess the possibility that it's actually na old native word in Albanian.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-April-29-2017
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    I think a good methology would be to first, compare similarities between Germanic languages and Albanian dialects, and then compare the say words with the other IE languages. If there is more cognates between Germanic and Albanian than between Germaniac, Albanian and other IE languages, it's likely that those cognates came from something earlier than PIE, mainly Neolithic substrate. I say that with having obviously not much clue about the relationship, but for who knows, they can already have their somewhat conclusions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Hund means nose in Albanian and dog in German, so you can't say they're not related since there's clearly a connection due to their sense of smell.
    That's a vague semantic relationship and almost like trying to fit one word and the other together. That's okay, a possible hypothesis, but it is much less likely than hound being related to Albanian qen (which may have come from Latin canis via Proto-Albanian kjen, but I don't know), especially when you take into account that /h/ in Germanic languages corresponds to early /k/. The reconstructed PIE word for "dog" was *k'wó- which added to a known suffix -nt(ós) can easily result in Germanic hundaz via regular sound rules, directly from a word already meaning "dog", instead of a totally speculative idea that Germanic would've borrowed Albanian hundë to name their dogs (and assuming that the word would never have evolved since millennia ago in Albanian and in Germanic languages, remaining almost identical). Besides, there is the problem that Proto-Albanian hundë, when you study the etymology of the léxicon and the phonetic history of the language as a whole, not just random and scattered words, probably derives from a Proto-Albanian form *skunta, which does not sound like Proto-Germanic *hundaz.

    People need to understand that many loanwords and especially real cognates usually date to centuries and millennia before the presente, so they are not expected to still sound similar or - as in this case - identical at all, quite on the contrary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Hund means nose in Albanian and dog in German, so you can't say they're not related since there's clearly a connection due to their sense of smell.
    the semantic connexion exists (with a broad tolerence) but we cannot base our statements only on possible semantic chains: the word in question owe to show the regular phonetic evolution, or it is only a loan, and even then, this loan has to be proven; in this case, for phonetic reasons, the loan would be very recent, and then, the semantic evolution could not have taken place, I think.

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    I don't deny possible specific connexion between Germanic and Albanian, but the question is not simple: we have to determine:
    - if the common words are ancient and not recent loans
    - even ancient, since when? Germanic words can have been borrowed from Goths, so not from the first layer of Germanic
    - are these common words, of PIE cognates, specific to Germanic/Albanian, or are they common to say Balto-Slavic, by instance, which show wome proximity too with Albanian?
    - are these Germanic/Albanian words older than PIE, heritage of a pre-IE layer shared somwhere to find (very exiting, indeed)?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I would assume Gosti / Guest to have the same proto-indo-european root. So not sure we can characterize it as Slavic, since then - how did Brits borrow this word from Slavs.

    The word might originate from a common proto-indo-european root, rather than be direct borrowing among any of Albanian / English / Slavic.

    Another root I suspect of this nature could be "clear / klaar / chiaro / qartë "

    What I mean is that there is little way to tell which way a word was borrowed, if it indeed was.

    Albanian Akull and Icelandic Jokull, surely have the same root, meaning ice. But I doubt it was borrowed one way or the other. Rather it was inherited from a common lexicon at some point in history.
    Yes it is IE. But in albanian it is loanword from slavic because it is the same, and even because its verb 'gostit' is slavic 'gostit', the same. The Ie wihich evolved in illyrian probably was lost, because it was replaced by slavic loanword. Brits dont say gost, they say guest, which fairly evolved and dissimilar with slavic.
    Any way, the thread is only for words which are similar between germanic and albanian, but not for other IE languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    I don't deny possible specific connexion between Germanic and Albanian, but the question is not simple: we have to determine:
    - if the common words are ancient and not recent loans
    - even ancient, since when? Germanic words can have been borrowed from Goths, so not from the first layer of Germanic
    - are these common words, of PIE cognates, specific to Germanic/Albanian, or are they common to say Balto-Slavic, by instance, which show wome proximity too with Albanian?
    - are these Germanic/Albanian words older than PIE, heritage of a pre-IE layer shared somwhere to find (very exiting, indeed)?
    My thread is clear: German-albanian simmilarities, not other IE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    'kan' became 'qen', nothing else, in Albanian, I suppose; and the Albanian 'hund' has nothing to do with Germanic 'hund' then.
    Kan (alb.), Canis (lat.), kuon (gr.), Hund (ger.)
    So hund is derived from IE root, which is comon for all these termes, just K evolved into H

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