Germanic-Albanian similarities

[MOESAN]

Hund is the Albanian word for 'nose' and kan/ken became 'qen'. So 'kan' became either 'qen' or 'hund' (adding the 'd' at the end as I said) not both.

'kan' became 'qen', nothing else, in Albanian, I suppose; and the Albanian 'hund' has nothing to do with Germanic 'hund' then.

 

[Nik]

'kan' became 'qen', nothing else, in Albanian, I suppose; and the Albanian 'hund' has nothing to do with Germanic 'hund' then.

Hund means nose in Albanian and dog in German, so you can't say they're not related since there's clearly a connection due to their sense of smell.

 

[LABERIA]

Leibniz's letters sound more like speculation based on little data and previous linguistic research available to him at that time, therefore he has to resort to a lot of immaginative assumptions and mostly rely on on mere sound similarity instead of a more methodic way to assess the connections between the two languages as well as other languages of Europes. I don't think it's a good source after all the huge development of the science of linguistics in the 19th and 20th centuries.

Anyway, there is certainly a high possibility that gosti is related to guest/gast but it doesn't help us establish the degree of closer connections between Germanic and Albanian, because that same root, Always within the same semantic realm, is also presente in other IE groups like Latin hospes/hospites (hence hospitality and so on - also "guest, one who is received into one's house or land") and in Slavic gosti. By the way, searching for the etymology of Albanian gosti "feast", I saw some sources claiming that it is probably a later loanword from Slavic gosti, because the word missed the effects of vowel reduction in Old Albanian (and it's really almost identical to the Slavic root). I'd like to know the main sound correspondence to PIE *gh-, *ó- and unstressed *i- (the PIE root was *ghóstis) in Albanian to assess the possibility that it's actually na old native word in Albanian.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34003-David-Reich-speech-on-steppe-migrations-April-29-2017

 

[halfalp]

I think a good methology would be to first, compare similarities between Germanic languages and Albanian dialects, and then compare the say words with the other IE languages. If there is more cognates between Germanic and Albanian than between Germaniac, Albanian and other IE languages, it's likely that those cognates came from something earlier than PIE, mainly Neolithic substrate. I say that with having obviously not much clue about the relationship, but for who knows, they can already have their somewhat conclusions.

 

[Ygorcs]

Hund means nose in Albanian and dog in German, so you can't say they're not related since there's clearly a connection due to their sense of smell.

That's a vague semantic relationship and almost like trying to fit one word and the other together. That's okay, a possible hypothesis, but it is much less likely than hound being related to Albanian qen (which may have come from Latin canis via Proto-Albanian kjen, but I don't know), especially when you take into account that /h/ in Germanic languages corresponds to early /k/. The reconstructed PIE word for "dog" was *k'wó- which added to a known suffix -nt(ós) can easily result in Germanic hundaz via regular sound rules, directly from a word already meaning "dog", instead of a totally speculative idea that Germanic would've borrowed Albanian hundë to name their dogs (and assuming that the word would never have evolved since millennia ago in Albanian and in Germanic languages, remaining almost identical). Besides, there is the problem that Proto-Albanian hundë, when you study the etymology of the léxicon and the phonetic history of the language as a whole, not just random and scattered words, probably derives from a Proto-Albanian form *skunta, which does not sound like Proto-Germanic *hundaz.

People need to understand that many loanwords and especially real cognates usually date to centuries and millennia before the presente, so they are not expected to still sound similar or - as in this case - identical at all, quite on the contrary.

 

[MOESAN]

Hund means nose in Albanian and dog in German, so you can't say they're not related since there's clearly a connection due to their sense of smell.

the semantic connexion exists (with a broad tolerence) but we cannot base our statements only on possible semantic chains: the word in question owe to show the regular phonetic evolution, or it is only a loan, and even then, this loan has to be proven; in this case, for phonetic reasons, the loan would be very recent, and then, the semantic evolution could not have taken place, I think.

 

[MOESAN]

I don't deny possible specific connexion between Germanic and Albanian, but the question is not simple: we have to determine:
- if the common words are ancient and not recent loans
- even ancient, since when? Germanic words can have been borrowed from Goths, so not from the first layer of Germanic
- are these common words, of PIE cognates, specific to Germanic/Albanian, or are they common to say Balto-Slavic, by instance, which show wome proximity too with Albanian?
- are these Germanic/Albanian words older than PIE, heritage of a pre-IE layer shared somwhere to find (very exiting, indeed)?

 

[Neander]

I would assume Gosti / Guest to have the same proto-indo-european root. So not sure we can characterize it as Slavic, since then - how did Brits borrow this word from Slavs.

The word might originate from a common proto-indo-european root, rather than be direct borrowing among any of Albanian / English / Slavic.

Another root I suspect of this nature could be "clear / klaar / chiaro / qartë "

What I mean is that there is little way to tell which way a word was borrowed, if it indeed was.

Albanian Akull and Icelandic Jokull, surely have the same root, meaning ice. But I doubt it was borrowed one way or the other. Rather it was inherited from a common lexicon at some point in history.

Yes it is IE. But in albanian it is loanword from slavic because it is the same, and even because its verb 'gostit' is slavic 'gostit', the same. The Ie wihich evolved in illyrian probably was lost, because it was replaced by slavic loanword. Brits dont say gost, they say guest, which fairly evolved and dissimilar with slavic.
Any way, the thread is only for words which are similar between germanic and albanian, but not for other IE languages.

 

[Neander]

I don't deny possible specific connexion between Germanic and Albanian, but the question is not simple: we have to determine:
- if the common words are ancient and not recent loans
- even ancient, since when? Germanic words can have been borrowed from Goths, so not from the first layer of Germanic
- are these common words, of PIE cognates, specific to Germanic/Albanian, or are they common to say Balto-Slavic, by instance, which show wome proximity too with Albanian?
- are these Germanic/Albanian words older than PIE, heritage of a pre-IE layer shared somwhere to find (very exiting, indeed)?

My thread is clear: German-albanian simmilarities, not other IE.

 

[Neander]

'kan' became 'qen', nothing else, in Albanian, I suppose; and the Albanian 'hund' has nothing to do with Germanic 'hund' then.

Kan (alb.), Canis (lat.), kuon (gr.), Hund (ger.)
So hund is derived from IE root, which is comon for all these termes, just K evolved into H

 

[Nik]

That's a vague semantic relationship and almost like trying to fit one word and the other together. That's okay, a possible hypothesis, but it is much less likely than hound being related to Albanian qen (which may have come from Latin canis via Proto-Albanian kjen, but I don't know), especially when you take into account that /h/ in Germanic languages corresponds to early /k/. The reconstructed PIE word for "dog" was *k'wó- which added to a known suffix -nt(ós) can easily result in Germanic hundaz via regular sound rules, directly from a word already meaning "dog", instead of a totally speculative idea that Germanic would've borrowed Albanian hundë to name their dogs (and assuming that the word would never have evolved since millennia ago in Albanian and in Germanic languages, remaining almost identical). Besides, there is the problem that Proto-Albanian hundë, when you study the etymology of the léxicon and the phonetic history of the language as a whole, not just random and scattered words, probably derives from a Proto-Albanian form *skunta, which does not sound like Proto-Germanic *hundaz.

People need to understand that many loanwords and especially real cognates usually date to centuries and millennia before the presente, so they are not expected to still sound similar or - as in this case - identical at all, quite on the contrary.

Everything you said is correct, besides the part than kan in Albanian derives from Latin since we know it was Illyrian too.

I didn't understand why it was directed to me since I didn't make a statement I simply pointed out something that might interest anyone reading this and hoping someone more knowledgeable will clarify something about it.

Consider it simply food for thought.

 

[Ygorcs]

Everything you said is correct, besides the part than kan in Albanian derives from Latin since we know it was Illyrian too.

I didn't understand why it was directed to me since I didn't make a statement I simply pointed out something that might interest anyone reading this and hoping someone more knowledgeable will clarify something about it.

Consider it simply food for thought.

I just took the opportunity of your post to write about my little research about those words, that's all.

Btw, isn't that word qen in Albanian? I didn't research about kan, but the sources say "dog" in Albanian is qen. Is it a dialectal variation? All I could found was that qen would come from Latin canis via Proto-Albanian *kjen (reconstructed), but I don't know precisely why they assume that, but I think that's because of the sound rules that were applied to Albanian from PIE to the early stages of Albanian, namely: the PIE root*k'wó- has a palatalized /k/, which accoridng to the sound correspondences found in many other Albanian words should have become a /th/, not a /k/. But if the original root had become a fully labialized /kw/ eventually delabialized, then I can see it theoretically becoming a q, therefore qen. I think both possibilities are plausible. In any case, it's a well known IE root found in many branches, so I think it's really a bit surprising if it didn't survive in Illyrian.

 

[MOESAN]

My thread is clear: German-albanian simmilarities, not other IE.

It seems no didn't understand the deep meaning of my post...
And by the way English isn't German, but Germanic; maybe you made a little mistake here? if Germanic, then you have to respect the old forms of this language, if you tempt to show us ancient ties and not recent loanwords.

 

[Nik]

I just took the opportunity of your post to write about my little research about those words, that's all.

Btw, isn't that word qen in Albanian? I didn't research about kan, but the sources say "dog" in Albanian is qen. Is it a dialectal variation? All I could found was that qen would come from Latin canis via Proto-Albanian *kjen (reconstructed), but I don't know precisely why they assume that, but I think that's because of the sound rules that were applied to Albanian from PIE to the early stages of Albanian, namely: the PIE root*k'wó- has a palatalized /k/, which accoridng to the sound correspondences found in many other Albanian words should have become a /th/, not a /k/. But if the original root had become a fully labialized /kw/ eventually delabialized, then I can see it theoretically becoming a q, therefore qen. I think both possibilities are plausible. In any case, it's a well known IE root found in many branches, so I think it's really a bit surprising if it didn't survive in Illyrian.

Yes, the Albanian word is qen indeed (pronounced differently depending on the region) but kan was the Illyrian word, so just like many other cases there's no need to attribute such words to Latin but rather to the Illyrian languages. Who knows how many of those so-called Latin loanwords are actually Latin or just local.

I'm not well versed in linguistics but I can help with my knowledge in Albanian. In my dialect we have preserved the 'kj' instead of 'q' but the word qen is an exception which we pronounce it something like "tshiên" (prolonged 'e'). Other Gheg dialects pronounced it as several versions of chên while Tosk has what was made later a Standard of qen or qën, where 'ë' is derived from older a, â, ô, or i, and 'q' is pronounced completely differently, so different that Ghegs (besides some Standardized South Gheg speakers in Central Albania) are unable to pronounce it for life.

 

[Neander]

It seems no didn't understand the deep meaning of my post...
And by the way English isn't German, but Germanic; maybe you made a little mistake here? if Germanic, then you have to respect the old forms of this language, if you tempt to show us ancient ties and not recent loanwords.

How can you say recent loanwords wthout facts. Since we are albanians, w know much more about our language, and there can be no english loanwords in the tongue of some illiterate oldmen in mountains.
Visigoths didnt occupy only albanians, they were everywhere in roman territory, why these similarities are only with albanians??
So we are not talking here about loanwords, my thread is very clear, these are germanic-albanian similarities.
Only I don't know what kind of worm is not letting you rest in peace? Why you have so much problem with this thread? You are not contributing anything, just destructive power.

 

[MOESAN]

How can you say recent loanwords wthout facts. Since we are albanians, w know much more about our language, and there can be no english loanwords in the tongue of some illiterate oldmen in mountains.
Visigoths didnt occupy only albanians, they were everywhere in roman territory, why these similarities are only with albanians??
So we are not talking here about loanwords, my thread is very clear, these are germanic-albanian similarities.
Only I don't know what kind of worm is not letting you rest in peace? Why you have so much problem with this thread? You are not contributing anything, just destructive power.

Is not the worm in you? Ygorcs made remarks of the same kind, I think.
I avow I'm not contributing, because at first I prefer put some solid basis in the search and EXPLANATION of common words presence. And I have too few clues concerning Albanian lexicon, ancient and modern.
The mainstream to date consider Albanian as a language closer to the Dacians/Medes one, close enough to the poorly known Dardanian language and to the very Illyrians language (the southern one, not the italic-like language of late northern Roman Illyria.
So, more remotely linked to Slavic, then Baltic tongues; Germanic has some ties with Italic on one hand, and to Baltic-Slavic languages on the other, so some links to Albanian too. A remote link to the Northwestern IE languages, but not by force a specific tight and exclusive link to Albanian, except we find new data.
And I find totally respectable to look for Germanic-Albanian ties, but with phonetic rules respected, to can make the differences between origins ties and later loans, at ancient and recent times. My position is rather senseful and respectable too, nothing more.
Croatian has 'plav' for "blue", it could be a Germanic loan. Slavic tongues have 'hleb'/'hljab' for "bread" (IE *hlop? -> "loaf of bread"), so a loan, otherwise from PIE it would have been # 'kleb', approximatively.
But you could keep on posting here, I have no objection; it would be interesting anyway, and I 'll can learn some Albanian words, with old forms, it would be even better.
Good sunday

 

[MOESAN]

@Neander
BTW the dumb-down is not mine, spite I have been tempted...

 

[Johane Derite]

Is not the worm in you? Ygorcs made remarks of the same kind, I think.
I avow I'm not contributing, because at first I prefer put some solid basis in the search and EXPLANATION of common words presence. And I have too few clues concerning Albanian lexicon, ancient and modern.
The mainstream to date consider Albanian as a language closer to the Dacians/Medes one, close enough to the poorly known Dardanian language and to the very Illyrians language (the southern one, not the italic-like language of late northern Roman Illyria.
So, more remotely linked to Slavic, then Baltic tongues; Germanic has some ties with Italic on one hand, and to Baltic-Slavic languages on the other, so some links to Albanian too. A remote link to the Northwestern IE languages, but not by force a specific tight and exclusive link to Albanian, except we find new data.
And I find totally respectable to look for Germanic-Albanian ties, but with phonetic rules respected, to can make the differences between origins ties and later loans, at ancient and recent times. My position is rather senseful and respectable too, nothing more.
Croatian has 'plav' for "blue", it could be a Germanic loan. Slavic tongues have 'hleb'/'hljab' for "bread" (IE *hlop? -> "loaf of bread"), so a loan, otherwise from PIE it would have been # 'kleb', approximatively.
But you could keep on posting here, I have no objection; it would be interesting anyway, and I 'll can learn some Albanian words, with old forms, it would be even better.
Good sunday

In terms of the Albanian to Balto-Slavic relations, albanian has closer relations with the Baltic group, lithuanian specifically.

 

[MOESAN]

@JohaneDerite

Maybe, I cannot judge by myself to date.

BTW bis: 'dumb down': I want to say 'thumb down'!