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Thread: Germanic-Albanian similarities

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.

    Germanic-Albanian similarities



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ate_hypothesis

    Based on the wiki-page about Germanic substrate hypothesis, we see that some o fthe words have their cognates in Albanian:
    english 'North' - in albanian 'narth' means 'I am feeling cold', or 'it is cold'
    english 'sword' - in albanian 'kordha', with the same meaning
    english 'shield' - in albanian 'shilte' is a hassock
    english 'bow' - in albanian 'bahe' means sling, weapon of David against Goliath
    Icelandic 'drekka' - in albanian 'dreka' means lunch, the portion of middle day (afternoon)

    There also similarities in other fields, which I cannot write here about, f. ex. in mythology, fairy tales etc.

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah, Germanic, Albanian and Balto-Slavic were likely spoke in close proximity at a very early period since the lexical sharings are found in the very basic vocabulary pertaining to primitive agriculture. The lexical sharings Albanian has with Thracian, Greek etc. seem to be later developments.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yeah, Germanic, Albanian and Balto-Slavic were likely spoke in close proximity at a very early period since the lexical sharings are found in the very basic vocabulary pertaining to primitive agriculture. The lexical sharings Albanian has with Thracian, Greek etc. seem to be later developments.
    These above are neither in slavuic, nor in any other ie language! It is so called germanic substrate!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    These above are neither in slavuic, nor in any other ie language! It is so called germanic substrate!
    Some lexical sharings are with Germanic only of course. Likewise there are exclusive isoglosses between each of the pairs.

    It is possible that the ancestors of the Germanics and Albanians subsisted on the backs of the same pre-IE agricultural population I guess.

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    Something I find fascinating about Albanians in Germany is how quickly they learn German, losing even the accent within a short period of sojourn.
    I would suspect the similarities neither start neither stop at the lexicon, yet I am not too familiar with grammar, so could not say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yeah, Germanic, Albanian and Balto-Slavic were likely spoke in close proximity at a very early period since the lexical sharings are found in the very basic vocabulary pertaining to primitive agriculture. The lexical sharings Albanian has with Thracian, Greek etc. seem to be later developments.
    Serbsplaining as usual. And with incorrect info. Why don't you stick to talking on subjects you know.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Serbsplaining as usual. And with incorrect info. Why don't you stick to talking on subjects you know.
    It's in Orel's book. Why would Serbs want that anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Something I find fascinating about Albanians in Germany is how quickly they learn German, losing even the accent within a short period of sojourn.
    I would suspect the similarities neither start neither stop at the lexicon, yet I am not too familiar with grammar, so could not say.
    IIRC in computer generated trees Albanian sometimes ends up on one branch with Germanic. Ought to be taken wih a grain of salt though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    IIRC in computer generated trees Albanian sometimes ends up on one branch with Germanic. Ought to be taken wih a grain of salt though.
    Yeah, I have seen some of those models. Not sure how much authority/legitimacy one should assume in those models though. Although such an hypothesis would not surprise me.

    I know for a fact they (AI researchers) have been able to use unsupervised neural networks to "group" / cluster populations simply based on their genetic input.



    I wonder If similar systems can be implemented for comparative linguistics(?).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yeah, I have seen some of those models. Not sure how much authority/legitimacy one should assume in those models though. Although such an hypothesis would not surprise me.
    I know for a fact they (AI researchers) have been able to use unsupervised neural networks to "group" / cluster populations simply based on their genetic input.

    I wonder If similar systems can be implemented for comparative linguistics(?).
    The standard method is based on Bayesian inference of the phylogenetic tree. Linguists tend to have mixed feelings about this approach and there's no clear consensus.
    One of the problems is that these methods don't account for unequal rates of linguistic change, for example due to intense interaction with other groups. This I believe to be very important in the case of Albanian which has both extremely archaic features and very innovative features. Unfortunately Albanian is understudied, though it is much more interesting for the IE question than Germanic, Celtic, Slavic etc. . For example the retention of archaic Indo-European palatals, velars and labiovelars means it must have separated from the IE stem even before Tokharian. The reason the language doesn't look so divergent today is because the Albanian speakers were surrounded by other IEs whom they interacted with for so long.

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    There are other words shared between Germanic and Albanian, which are whole IE:
    Spear - alb. spirrë means thin woods to start fire
    Hungry - alb. Hanger means 'eat'
    Cow - alb. Kau means bull
    Blood - alb. Blatim means sacrifice, offering to the god
    Cave - alb. Guva is a synonim for shpella (cave), shpella is derived from greek spelaeum

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    Neander, these are theories that have been discussed and rediscussed many times. However, read this, maybe you will find it interesting:
    1705-1715
    Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:
    Correspondence on the Albanian Language



    The German philosopher and mathematician Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz (1646-1716) was a major figure in Western thought. Born in Leipzig, he served as a diplomat and lived for much of his life in Paris. He later served the Duke of Brunswick in Hanover and became the first president of the Prussian Academy of Science. His wide-ranging works on philosophy, mathematics, science, history and jurisprudence were written in French and Latin. Leibniz was a man of many interests and even devoted himself to the Albanian language, which was very little known at the time. Here are extracts from his correspondence.

    I. On some medication, II. On the death of the Count of Schwerin, III. The Albanian-Illyrian language, IV. Chinese, V. On Wales, etc., VI. On the old Spanish alphabet.


    I. I would like to thank you for informing me about the remedy of the Prior of Cabrières. Such proven remedies ought to be published with details of experience with them. You mentioned some others.
    II. I am grieved by the death of the Count of Schwerin. He was a man of knowledge and curiosity and helped promote studies and learning. I somewhat suspect that Mr Brand will now be given the position as head of the King's Library.
    III. I have no doubt, Sir, that your merits will be taken into consideration more and more as I note that those with positions of authority are persuaded of them. I also see that I am in aere tuo since I owe you the Lord's Prayer in Hottentot. I still cannot find it, but as I am sure that I have it somewhere, you will receive it one day without fail. As to the language of the Albanians, I have the impression that it may be a sort of Slavic since this tongue is spoken along the Adriatic Sea. It is commonly known as Linguam Illiricam, but I believe that the language of the ancient Illyrians was something quite different. If there were any remnants of it in the mountains of Epirus, it would certainly be very odd, and most worthy as a subject of research. I have thought about it more than once, but it did not occur to me when I was in Rome, where I know Mr Pastritio (if I am not mistaken), professor at the College della propaganda (for the Propagation of the Faith), who was himself from Dalmatia. I do not know if he is still alive. That could be found out in Ragusa (Dubrovnik) or even in Venice since the territories of the Republic are quite near to Albania.
    IV. If I might, Sir, I would like to encourage you to learn the Chinese language. I believe, as you do, that the late Mr Muller, a gentleman of learning, saw something of interest in it. I hope that we will get a copy of the Tartar-Chinese Dictionary which the Emperor of China is having prepared, and I have written to the Jesuits telling them that it would be good to have some explanations in a European language. Father Grimaldi did not believe that there was a key to Chinese characters. But there must be some reason what they were made that way, even though the passage of time may have rendered them difficult to decipher and caused irregularities in them.
    V. I received two dictionaries of the language of Wales. The older one by Davies was published in London in 1632 in fol. and was sent to me with a grammar published in 12 in 1621. The second Welsh dictionary is by Thom. Jones, published in 12 in 1688. It gives Welsh to English, though not vice versa. But Davies gives Welsh to Latin and Latin to Welsh. I am still persuaded that at least half of Welsh corresponds to Germanic, and that it is rather like Greek is to Latin. Old Germanic contained quite a few words we do not understand today. I rather believe that the ancient Britons came from Germany, and that the Gauls etc. have something of the language of the ancient Cimbrians and Germans of which little is left, and that the Irish are the reflection of an earlier migration of older Britons, who also crossed the sea. Thus, Irish is an even older form of Celtic. There are people in England working at the moment on explaining the Irish language and I would be curious to know what they come up with. Davies quotes a Dictionarium Britannico-Aremoricum, published in Paris impensis Yvonis Quillevere in 1521. But enough of this.
    VI. I asked for the Chinese inscription from Mr Cuper, but I have not yet received it. He spoke to me about a Dutchman who spent much time in Spain and hoped to be able to decipher the ancient Spanish alphabet.
    (Hanover, 24 June 1705)

    I. On the Albanian language, II. On the Armenian, Coptic and Georgian languages, etc., III. On the language of the countries under Czarist rule.

    I. Since Mr Hubener is passing through here on his return from Holland, I asked him to get hold of a manuscript in the King's Library, which I am sending back to you with thanks, and I have the honour of writing to you at the same time. I was very pleased to hear that you have received a book and a Dictionary of the Albanian Language. By it we see what the language of the ancient Illyrians was like. I nonetheless notice that there is much Latin in it. Attiyne for "our father" corresponds to the Scythian languages. It would also seem that there are small traces of words which are like German, such as seet for "earth," Enandeyenée "to pardon," and ndetekech "in temptation."
    II. You will soon be universal in linguistics, Sir, since you are even enhancing your knowledge of Armenian, which is quite different from other languages. You know that the late Mr Acoluthus thought he had found a link between Armenian and Coptic, but I believe he was mistaken, at least I received no persuasive evidence from him when he talked to me in Berlin. You will be able to make a better judgment now. The Georgian language seemed to me more unusual than Armenian because of the multitude of moods it has. Your explanation of the Armenian medals will be suitable as part of our Miscellanea.
    III. There is a gentleman from Moscow here, an envoy of the Czar, who intends perhaps to spend a couple of weeks here. He calls himself a prince or knjaz and is of the old Kurakin family. I will endeavour to get him to write to the Chancery in Moscow to get us samples of the languages of the countries under Czarist rule, and of the neighbouring countries. And if you have any request, I would beg you, Sir, to inform me of it as soon as possible. As he is a native of the country, he can more easily write to get things than can foreigners in the employment of the Czar, to whom I have written and spoken, but to no avail. For the rest, I am yours, etc.
    (Hanover, 10 December 1709)

    I. On the Albanian language, II. The Georgian language, III. The work of Nestor of Kiev, IV. The rebaptism of the Latins among the Russians, etc., V. The origin of the word Cossack.

    I. It would be a good idea in Albanian to distinguish between what is native to the language and what has been borrowed. No one could do this better than you, Sir. Nevertheless, I would like to give you my opinion on several words in this language. Hunde pro naso, an dicemus antiquum Celticum esse? (hunde for "nose," may we call this old Celtic?) and the German word "Hund" (dog) got its name from the nose because it excels in the use of this organ, just as Truye "troia" (sow)derives differently from trogue or truyn, meaning "nose" in ancient Gaulish and among the modern Gauls, too. "Hunting" is one thing in English, yet "hint" is a trace or indication, which modern Germans would call Spuhr. Therefore it is possible that all of this comes from the root in Kunde "knowledge," from which the French connoître (to know) and Greek gnóoskein (to know)derive. I would come to a similar conclusion with craha "brachium (arm)" in Albanian because Krebs or crabbe (crab) is an animal with arms, and Krallen (claws), krazzen "to scratch," kriechen "to crawl," Kröte "bufo" (toad) would seem related to this, too. The letter "k" in roots often signifies a bending, and the letter "r" a movement, whereas arms are often expressed with a "cr." Massa would seem to me to mean "meat" in Slavic. This has become mix in Albanian and mis in Armenian, both meaning "meat." Burri "maritus" (husband) could be related to Braut (bride), Bräutigam (groom), Freia is the Germanic goddess Venus. As to the crab, Albanian gaforreia, I suspect there may be a relation with Gafel, i.e. furca "fork." Boots as the Hungarians are wont to wear them are called citmes in Vienna in Italian pronunciation, i.e. tschismes. One must also see whether ocrea is not the same thing as tschisme in Hungarian or some other neighbouring country, as it is in Albanian. The Albanian words for numbers have nothing that can be derived from the neighbouring languages, but, knowing all the languages you do, you will be able to figure out why the Albanians call an ox chau, and the sea deet, and "mulier (woman)" crue and "good" emir. Perhaps deet derives from delt, i.e. thálassa, etc. …
    (Hanover, 26 December 1709)
    II. On this occasion, I would beg you, Sir, to send me the Lord's Prayer in the Epirotic (Albanian) language in an interlinear version and would be obliged to you if you could add the Credo, if possible. Please also send me the titles of the two books in this idiom, their size and the date and place of publication, for this language, being little known, is worthy of being investigated. I will endeavour to find these books in Rome. With them, ancient monuments have been dug up from the foundations of Notre Dame in Paris.
    (Hanover, 28 December 1711)
    … The modern European alphabets are derived from Latin, with the exception of the two Slavic ones: Cyrillic and so-called Glagolitic. Some authors later attributed these to Saint Jerome who was of Illyrian origin, but falsely so, as if the ancient Illyrian language were some sort of Slavic. But the Slavs were late to arrive in Illyria, not before the age of Justinian. The ancient Illyrians were of Celtic origin. They used a language closely related to Germanic and Gaulish. It is evident that relics of this are preserved in the modern language, in particular in that of the Epirots, of which I have seen specimens published. Nowadays they generally call the Slavic language Illyrian because the Slavs settled in Illyria. …
    (Vienna, 13 January 1714)
    II. …One day in Berlin you gave me a book in the language of the Epirots, printed in Rome by the Propaganda Fide. I believe it had the Lord's Prayer in that language and I took it out. But I cannot easily find it in my letters. Would you be so kind, Sir, as to send it to me once more?
    (Hanover, 24 March 1715)
    Source: [Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz, Opera Philologica (Hildesheim: Georg Olms, 1989). Translated from the French by Robert Elsie.]

    http://www.albanianhistory.net/1705_Leibniz/index.html

    P.S.
    From my side i will add the possible connection of the Albanian word gosti = feast, banquet in English, with guest in English and gast in German.
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    See - alb. sy (eye)
    Dark - alb. dark (dinner)
    Hound - alb. hund (nose), hounds could be derived due to their smelling ability
    You - alb. ju (you)

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    For a reason unknown to me, after my last post in this thread i got -32 points:

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    Can someone from the mods explain why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    For a reason unknown to me, after my last post in this thread i got -32 points:

    21-02-19

    21:50 LABERIA has lost -32 Points for Posts points
    21:50 LABERIA has earned 8 Points for User points
    21:50 LABERIA has earned 2 Points for threads points

    Can someone from the mods explain why?
    There's no downvote for either of those threads, so I don't know what to tell you. I don't know any other way you could lose reputation points.


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    Gost can be slavic loanword, since they use it too. While Hund germ. and Hound in eng. can be linked to lat. Canis, and illyrians Kan, albanian qen, just K is changed to H

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    Any linguists opinion about this? apart that in computer generated trees Albanian is put with Germanic,and some earlier linguist claiming that Lithuanian is the closest living language to Albanian,i forget his name.

    And probably in my opinion has the greatest similarities and cognates among the mentioned languages.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    Gost can be slavic loanword, since they use it too. While Hund germ. and Hound in eng. can be linked to lat. Canis, and illyrians Kan, albanian qen, just K is changed to H
    I would assume Gosti / Guest to have the same proto-indo-european root. So not sure we can characterize it as Slavic, since then - how did Brits borrow this word from Slavs.

    The word might originate from a common proto-indo-european root, rather than be direct borrowing among any of Albanian / English / Slavic.

    Another root I suspect of this nature could be "clear / klaar / chiaro / qartë "

    What I mean is that there is little way to tell which way a word was borrowed, if it indeed was.

    Albanian Akull and Icelandic Jokull, surely have the same root, meaning ice. But I doubt it was borrowed one way or the other. Rather it was inherited from a common lexicon at some point in history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milan.M View Post
    Any linguists opinion about this? apart that in computer generated trees Albanian is put with Germanic,and some earlier linguist claiming that Lithuanian is the closest living language to Albanian,i forget his name.

    And probably in my opinion has the greatest similarities and cognates among the mentioned languages.
    Orel has a good outline of cognates in his book. This shouldn't be mistaken for common descent - Albanian is a much older branch of PIE. But I find The evidence that early Balto-Slavs, Germanics and Albanians met at one point very convincing.

    Would be interesting to know where. I'd think The timeframe would be around the Middle Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Orel has a good outline of cognates in his book. This shouldn't be mistaken for common descent - Albanian is a much older branch of PIE. But I find The evidence that early Balto-Slavs, Germanics and Albanians met at one point very convincing.

    Would be interesting to know where. I'd think The timeframe would be around the Middle Bronze Age.
    Yes that is my opinion also

    But I find The evidence that early Balto-Slavs, Germanics and Albanians met at one point very convincing.
    Thanks if you can post something from Orel's book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neander View Post
    While Hund germ. and Hound in eng. can be linked to lat. Canis, and illyrians Kan, albanian qen, just K is changed to H
    Highly unlikely that hund and kan are related. In Albanian the 't' or 'd' endings are lost after 'n', not added. Same goes to 'b' or 'p' after 'n' or 'm'.

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    Does anyone have a more updated tree than this?

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_299878405



    Gray, Russell & Atkinson, Quentin & Greenhill, Simon. (2011). Language Evolution and Human History. 10.1093/acprof:osobl/9780199608966.003.0016.

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    Possibly useful to this conversation.


    NeighborNet analyses of the Indo-European lexical data. Scale bar, 0.1. (Grey et al. 2010, Phil. Trans. R. Soc. B 365: 3923-3933).
    http://jgpausas.blogs.uv.es/files/20...ge-network.jpg



    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig2_220802977
    A plausible phylogeny computed for Indo-European languages, using CMODELS. / Character-Based Cladistics and Answer Set Programming

    Conference Paper (PDF Available)inLecture Notes in Computer Science 3350:37-51 · January 2005with 171 Reads
    DOI: 10.1007/978-3-540-30557-6_5 · Source: DBLP





    https://www.compevol.auckland.ac.nz/...e_culture.html
    https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0823175406.htm
    Paper: Bouckaert, R., Lemey, P., Dunn, M., Greenhill, S. J., Alekseyenko, A. V., Drummond, A. J., Gray, R. D., Suchard, M. A., Atkinson, Q. D. (2012). Mapping the origins and expansion of the Indo-European language family. Science, 337:957–960.
    Researchers: Dr Remco Bouckaert, Prof Alexei Drummond, Prof Russell Gray, A/Prof Quentin Atkinson

    Interesting Read:
    l

    "(Phys.org)—A pair of researchers has conducted a phylogenetic analysis on common fairy tales and has found that many of them appear to be much older than has been thought. In their paper published in Royal Society Open Science, Sara Graça da Silva, a social scientist/folklorist with New University of Lisbon and Jamshid Tehrani, an anthropologist with Durham University describe the linguistic study they carried out and why they believe at least one fairy tale had its origins in the Bronze Age."




    More information: Comparative phylogenetic analyses uncover the ancient roots of Indo-European folktales, Royal Society Open Science, Published 14 January 2016.DOI: 10.1098/rsos.150645 , http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.o...ent/3/1/150645

    Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2016-01-phylog...older.html#jCp

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Radoslav Katicic describing Milan Budmirs opinion on Alb:


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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Orel on Albanian-Greek isoglosses. These are shared between Alb and Greek only, and happened in a secondary location (i.e. not in the PIE honeland but after the tribes had moved out).

    IMO a good candidate for this is Epirus. The terms are also pretty basic and agricultural


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