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Thread: Cheddar Man, Mesolithic Britain, GEDmatch results

  1. #26
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    DNA Land Ancestry Report for Cheddar Man:



    For comparison, Steigen (Northern Norway hunter gatherer):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post568120
    Last edited by Tomenable; 25-02-19 at 00:27.

  2. #27
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    North Slavs: taking British jobs since Upper Paleolithic: ;)

    https://www.thecanary.co/wp-content/...n-Main-Two.jpg


  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I uploaded him to DNA Land, let's see what was his coffee consumption etc. :) Here are his pigmentation SNPs:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...964#post567964

    I don't think he was "black" in a Sub-Saharan African way, rather something between "Pakistani" and "Dark Finn".

    Dark Finn:

    Dark Finn? His hair notwithstanding, that "dark" skin color is undoubtedly white and would be perceived as white virtually anywhere, I believe. He isn't darker than many Germans or French people out there. I mean, with that skin complexion he must definitely have all the main skin-lightening mutations that are fixed in Europeans, so he's certainly much lighter than Cheddar Man was. But as for "Pakistani" looks, I'll agree with you, that's also my personal hunch, but only if you're taking about average Pakistanis, not the lightest-skinned ones, who aren't much darker than Syrians or Armenians. In my opinion, Cheddar Man was dark-skinned, but not in the "tropical African" sense. I'd say something Yemeni-like or Pakistani-like.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    If Chad Rohlfsen (https://populationgenomics.blog) is right WHG might be a relatively complex admixture of Magdalenian on the one Hand and Anatolian + Gravettian + ANE + ENA on the other. This could explain the similarity to Finno-Ugrian groups who have additional Gravettian and ENA admixture from Siberia.

    It would be interesting to investigate whether the HG admixture in Basques is more similar to Magdalenians.
    Interesting, that would make these results more understandable, but I still wonder why in the map Cheddar Man shows so more similarity with some populations much richer in WHG than in EHG than to populations like the Basques and Sardinians, with quite a lot of WHG for European standards (though not as much as the Baltic area). Is it possible that the fact that the non-WHG part is more ANF than anything else in Southern Europe, more distantly related than EHG, explains that? I'd be surprised if for instance the Basque WHG was more distant from Britain WHG than even EHG.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    DNA Land Ancestry Report for Cheddar Man:



    For comparison, Steigen (Northern Norway hunter gatherer):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post568120
    Intriguing. I wonder how much do modern Baltic people, North Russian and Finnish people score in WHG (in a model that also accounts for EHG to try to differentiate the two sources of Hunter-gatherer ancestry)? Anything as much as 1/3?

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    1 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    The biggest surprise here is low IQ of the people in here who cannot grasp the whole Chedar man was black is clearly propaganda and has nothing to do with with facts or honest science. The GED match results show how black or paki this hunter gatherer survivor was, which is a big fat zero. His reconstruction is just ill intention fraud.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    The biggest surprise here is low IQ of the people in here who cannot grasp the whole Chedar man was black is clearly propaganda and has nothing to do with with facts or honest science. The GED match results show how black or paki this hunter gatherer survivor was, which is a big fat zero. His reconstruction is just ill intention fraud.
    His GED match results show nothing about the SNPs related to the polygenic trait of skin color pigmentation. Do you think people would stop to be autosomally European just because they had darker skin pigmentation? Would they change their autosomal makeup because of a few gene alleles that were not present in them? If you do, you know nothing about population genetics. I know you're perhaps too used to think that "dark skin = black = African or maybe some of those dark South Asians", but that's nothing but misconception about what race, ancestry and skin pigmentation are and how much they are related.

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    Which one of the samples did you use to create the kit?

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    references

    Cheddar man shares little DNA with modern English/Scots/Welsh. After him came Neolithic farmers of mediterranean appearance who wiped out the western hunter gatherers. After them came fairer, lighter skinned people from the steppes (who wiped out the earlier Neolithic farmers). Some of these later farmers had similar mtDNA to Cheddar man because they had mixed with relatives of the Western Hunter Gatherers on the Steppes

    see Human Paleogenetics of Europe by Brandt G et al

    and

    Natural History museum 'ancient DNA shows migrants introduced farming to Britain from EU'
    Last edited by ewe2; 17-04-19 at 14:30. Reason: thought more info would help

  10. #35
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ewe2 View Post
    Cheddar man shares little DNA with modern English/Scots/Welsh. After him came Neolithic farmers of mediterranean appearance who wiped out the western hunter gatherers. After them came fairer, lighter skinned people from the steppes (who wiped out the earlier Neolithic farmers). Some of these later farmers had similar mtDNA to Cheddar man because they had mixed with relatives of the Western Hunter Gatherers on the Steppes

    see Human Paleogenetics of Europe by Brandt G et al

    and

    Natural History museum 'ancient DNA shows migrants introduced farming to Britain from EU'
    cheddar man would be derived for 6 out of 73 SNP's for I2a2b-L38, an extinct clade

    A tale of two Y sequences:
    One a very famous ancient person, and another a single Big Y, and the YFull tree:
    Cheddar Man, "the first Briton" who died 9150 years ago, and the Big Y id:YF07139 from France in I-Y10705. The I-L38 YFull tree. It looked like Cheddar man was ancestral for some I-Y10705 SNPs, and therefore he was a "partial" I-Y10705, even though he is derived for some SNPs of the I-Y10705 subclade I-L38.
    It turns out that this ordering of SNPs is based solely on the single Big Y, id:YF07139. With the help of Antonios Kollias, we were able to determine that in fact the Big Y of id:YF07139 had no reads for all of these supposed I-Y10705 SNPs on the YFull tree that Cheddar Man was negative for.
    These 9 SNPs are not really I-Y10705 SNPs at all, they are in fact I-L38 SNPs, and so Cheddar Man is positive for at least 6 I-L38 SNPs, and also positive for all actual I-Y10705 SNPs.People on Anthrogenica and most sites got it wrong, based on an "estimation" in the YFull tree which turned out to be wrong, based on this Big Y.

    Cheddar Man is a "partial" I-L38, not just I-Y10705.
    I-L38 has a few hundred people in it, and is found all over Europe, but mostly in the British Isles and Northwest Europe. This is the actual Y haplogroup of the fabled "lost land" of Doggerland, not R1b-M269.

    The moral of the story is, if you want a good Y sequence and an accurate YFull tree based on it, it pays to be dead for over 9000 years and get a whole genome sequence instead of getting a Big Y!

    https://docs.google.com/…/1aT79s3Hax...piJ…/edit…

    https://yfull.com/tree/I-Y10705/

  11. #36
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Polish Hunter-Gatherer (with similar pigmentation as Cheddar Man):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...unter-Gatherer

  12. #37
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b - L21/S145*
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3c

    Ethnic group
    more celtic
    Country: France



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Interesting, that would make these results more understandable, but I still wonder why in the map Cheddar Man shows so more similarity with some populations much richer in WHG than in EHG than to populations like the Basques and Sardinians, with quite a lot of WHG for European standards (though not as much as the Baltic area). Is it possible that the fact that the non-WHG part is more ANF than anything else in Southern Europe, more distantly related than EHG, explains that? I'd be surprised if for instance the Basque WHG was more distant from Britain WHG than even EHG.
    I think that yes, the lower weight of ANF among today N-E European pops compared to S-W ones and the common DNA shared by WHG and EHG explain these apparent oddities, without having to depend too much on WHG substructures. What does not exclude some substrucutres among pops (Spain and Britain Mesolothics) which were separated then since some time. Maybe some closer light WHG elements were send to Britain (and to West Scandinavia) later along with more EEF, from Iberia, at the Megalithic/Long Barrows times, putting western modern people closer between them, but today britain farther from Cheddar? it explains too the closer proximity of Cheddar to N-E Europe more than to Britain.

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