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Thread: Cheddar Man, Mesolithic Britain, GEDmatch results

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    Cheddar Man, Mesolithic Britain, GEDmatch results

    I have uploaded him to GEDmatch Genesis:

    Cheddar Man England 7150 BC, GEDmatch Genesis kit number - NW6414429

    Eurogenes K36:

    137669 SNPs used in this evaluation

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 8.81 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 17.68 Pct
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 9.69 Pct
    Fennoscandian 36.88 Pct

    French -
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian -
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 7.78 Pct
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 19.15 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med -

    Similarity Map:



    Edit:

    DNA Land Ancestry Report for Cheddar Man:

    Last edited by Tomenable; 24-02-19 at 18:57.

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    Was Cheddar Man part of the Villabruna Cluster?

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    Fascinating. Some people rich in WHG like Basques and Sardinians do not look similar at all to Cheddar Man in the map. Does it suggest that "WHG" is maybe a generic cluster, and there was actually a lot of regional genetic structure? Or is it just because compared to Northern Europeans, who also have a lot more EHG, the sum of Mesolithic European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG+EHG) is lower in the other regions?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Was Cheddar Man part of the Villabruna Cluster?
    9.1 ka in Britton, he is bound to be

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    I uploaded him to DNA Land, let's see what was his coffee consumption etc. :) Here are his pigmentation SNPs:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...964#post567964

    I don't think he was "black" in a Sub-Saharan African way, rather something between "Pakistani" and "Dark Finn".

    Dark Finn:


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Fascinating. Some people rich in WHG like Basques and Sardinians do not look similar at all to Cheddar Man in the map. Does it suggest that "WHG" is maybe a generic cluster, and there was actually a lot of regional genetic structure? Or is it just because compared to Northern Europeans, who also have a lot more EHG, the sum of Mesolithic European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG+EHG) is lower in the other regions?
    Actually it's strange that in the map, Sardinians score only one point higher than Cypriots (2 vs 1) when in reality they have much more WHG ancestry. It makes 0 sense for their WHG to be close to Cypriot levels
    mmmmmmmmmm doughnuuuuutz

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Fascinating. Some people rich in WHG like Basques and Sardinians do not look similar at all to Cheddar Man in the map. Does it suggest that "WHG" is maybe a generic cluster, and there was actually a lot of regional genetic structure? Or is it just because compared to Northern Europeans, who also have a lot more EHG, the sum of Mesolithic European Hunter-Gatherer (WHG+EHG) is lower in the other regions?
    If Chad Rohlfsen (https://populationgenomics.blog) is right WHG might be a relatively complex admixture of Magdalenian on the one Hand and Anatolian + Gravettian + ANE + ENA on the other. This could explain the similarity to Finno-Ugrian groups who have additional Gravettian and ENA admixture from Siberia.

    It would be interesting to investigate whether the HG admixture in Basques is more similar to Magdalenians.

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    Hmm, pigmentation. Maybe he was like an Arab, since the WHG were I haplogroup and Arabs are J, so they descend from the same ancestral stock on the male line. With his clustering with Northern Norway and Estonia, maybe we need to come up with a new group, Northern Hunter-Gatherers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Hmm, pigmentation. Maybe he was like an Arab, since the WHG were I haplogroup and Arabs are J, so they descend from the same ancestral stock on the male line. With his clustering with Northern Norway and Estonia, maybe we need to come up with a new group, Northern Hunter-Gatherers.
    AFAIK the scientists in question looked at more SNPs than just those in the Hirisplex system. Is there any good reason to doubt the skin color of the reconstruction?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Cheddar Man Genetic analysis showed that it was Y DNA I2a2b-S10750 Or I-L38*
    Cheddar Man is a "partial" I-L38*, a line ancestral to all I-L38s today as follows:
    Y11324/FGC29600+
    Y11319/FGC29553+
    S2524/SK1263/V2774+
    S2519+
    Y13463/FGC29582+
    S2592+
    S8646 (2/3 reads derived)
    The other SNPs are ancestral
    https://yfull.com/tree/I-L38/

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    AFAIK the scientists in question looked at more SNPs than just those in the Hirisplex system. Is there any good reason to doubt the skin color of the reconstruction?
    I have seen several skin color reconstructions ranging from:

    This: http://www.early-man.com/cheddar-man.html

    ... to this:

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/02/07/...ent-phenomenon



    These are quite different, 2nd looks MENA, 1st looks Black.

    =====

    Here is a good article:

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...-be-published/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have uploaded him to GEDmatch Genesis:

    Cheddar Man England 7150 BC, GEDmatch Genesis kit number - NW6414429

    Eurogenes K36:

    137669 SNPs used in this evaluation

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 8.81 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro -
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 17.68 Pct
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 9.69 Pct
    Fennoscandian 36.88 Pct

    French -
    Iberian -
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian -
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic 7.78 Pct
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 19.15 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med -

    Similarity Map:


    From a K36 Oracle




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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    Actually it's strange that in the map, Sardinians score only one point higher than Cypriots (2 vs 1) when in reality they have much more WHG ancestry. It makes 0 sense for their WHG to be close to Cypriot levels
    Cheddy:
    Eurogenes Hunter_Gatherer vs. Farmer Admixture Proportions

    Population

    Anatolian Farmer -
    Baltic Hunter Gatherer 94.00 Pct
    Middle Eastern Herder -
    East Asian Farmer 0.09
    Pct South American Hunter Gatherer -
    South Asian Hunter Gatherer -
    North Eurasian Hunter Gatherer -
    East African Pastoralist -
    Oceanian Hunter Gatherer 0.35 Pct
    Mediterranean Farmer 5.56 Pct
    Pygmy Hunter Gatherer -
    Bantu Farmer -

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have seen several skin color reconstructions ranging from:

    This: http://www.early-man.com/cheddar-man.html

    ... to this:

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/02/07/...ent-phenomenon



    These are quite different, 2nd looks MENA, 1st looks Black.

    =====

    Here is a good article:

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...-be-published/
    I 'll came back later but I just say here the discrepencies between the two reconstructions show us how unreliable these things can be; the first one seems to me the less reliable, not specially about skin colour but about features: nose flesh, lips... a provocative one for sure...
    I think the 'cromalike' heritage was for thin lips, the 'brnlike' one was for thicker lips, so some choice in Mesolithic, but even like that, these curious lips???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    I have seen several skin color reconstructions ranging from:

    This: http://www.early-man.com/cheddar-man.html

    ... to this:

    https://www.euronews.com/2018/02/07/...ent-phenomenon



    These are quite different, 2nd looks MENA, 1st looks Black.

    =====

    Here is a good article:

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/...-be-published/
    Not a good article IMHO. Same old "I feel he should be lighter".

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Not a good article IMHO. Same old "I feel he should be lighter".
    It would be surprising though if people like him contribute a significant amount of N Euro ancestry (and N Euros are light skinned). They also chose the darkest possible estimate from a range of possible pigmentations, which says it all really

    Something like Yemenis is a pigmentation I could “accept” as plausible

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Iain Mathieson said a few days ago on Twitter:

    I would say that basically it is impossible to predict skin pigmentation of these populations [SHG and WHG] with any degree of confidence, partly because they likely had variants that are not common today, and partly because there is too much epistasis.... I mean if you had some of the light pigmentation alleles you would probably guess lighter than if not, but I would still be extremely skeptical of any kind of quantitative prediction. There are hundreds of GW-significant pigmentation variants in UK Biobank alone, and these sort of predictions involve a small fraction of those

    It seems we have underestimated the complexity of pigmentation genetics until recently. People favouring relatively light skin (racists and conspiracy theorists aside) are figuring that selection would have worked on them as it has on modern high-latitude people. At this point we just don't really know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It would be surprising though if people like him contribute a significant amount of N Euro ancestry (and N Euros are light skinned). They also chose the darkest possible estimate from a range of possible pigmentations, which says it all really

    Something like Yemenis is a pigmentation I could “accept” as plausible
    I think he's lighter than many Eurasians like Papuans, Australians and especially Onge to whom he might have some additional affinities. If he had lighter skin it would have been caused by allelles that got lost anyway.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Jesus some people are soo concerned about white skin color it's embarrassing. Almost like they're embarrassed to be related to someone with a dark skin... Face it guys, you are recent descendants of dark people. Caucasians are the true white people. xD

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    I have made this recreation. I think they have done a good reconstruction, I have seen it working on it. The only thing that I think had given it a somewhat cannibalistic look and yet to my recreation I have seen more human aspects similar to modern man. His hair was graying gray and he could have had blue eyes or his children do not know, but he certainly did not have blue ones, it was rather that chestnut that looks red that would vary according to the light, there in the photo I was giving the light very fully it is understandable that they came out so red, poor man.

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    ^^^ "Red Skin" Amerindian? :)

    he certainly did not have blue ones
    What is this statement based on?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Onge to whom he might have some additional affinities.
    ???

    There are Onge and Jarawa on GEDmatch, they score like ancient Hoabinhians (also on GEDmatch):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoabinhian

    They all score mainly South Asian, Malayan and Oceanian. Onge, Jarawa, Malaysia & Laos foragers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^ "Red Skin" Amerindian? :)

    What is this statement based on?
    It's inexplicable.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post


    I have made this recreation. I think they have done a good reconstruction, I have seen it working on it. The only thing that I think had given it a somewhat cannibalistic look and yet to my recreation I have seen more human aspects similar to modern man. His hair was graying gray and he could have had blue eyes or his children do not know, but he certainly did not have blue ones, it was rather that chestnut that looks red that would vary according to the light, there in the photo I was giving the light very fully it is understandable that they came out so red, poor man.
    You turned Cheddar Man into a stone-age Drag Queen. LOL

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^Already in the original photo that does not mean that it was so exactly looks something childish or even a little effeminate I mean in the aspect not in other connotations.

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