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Thread: Iron Age Balkan DNA on GEDmatch

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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.

    Iron Age Balkan DNA on GEDmatch

    I have uploaded to GEDmatch this ancient sample from the area near Lyaskovets:

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map...3.0796/26.0423

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyaskovets



    I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria (500-400 BC), GEDmatch Genesis kit number - JD6924634

    Eurogenes K15 results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 28.65
    2 East_Med 26.64
    3 North_Sea 15.14
    4 Atlantic 12.54
    5 West_Asian 9.66
    6 Red_Sea 3.72
    7 Baltic 3.65

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 11.98
    2 South_Italian 12.54
    3 West_Sicilian 12.55
    4 East_Sicilian 12.78
    5 Central_Greek 13.11
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 13.68
    7 Greek_Thessaly 13.77
    8 Italian_Jewish 14.15
    9 Algerian_Jewish 15.17
    10 Ashkenazi 15.36
    11 North_Italian 15.49
    12 Greek 15.57
    13 Sephardic_Jewish 16.87
    14 Libyan_Jewish 19.2
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 20.2
    16 Portuguese 21.5
    17 Bulgarian 21.51
    18 Spanish_Extremadura 21.65
    19 Spanish_Galicia 21.91
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 22.12

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 67.3% Central_Greek + 32.7% Sardinian @ 7.43
    2 68.2% East_Sicilian + 31.8% Sardinian @ 7.5
    3 68.9% South_Italian + 31.1% Sardinian @ 7.51
    4 62.8% Ashkenazi + 37.2% Sardinian @ 8.1
    5 65.5% Italian_Jewish + 34.5% Sardinian @ 8.13
    6 66.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 33.2% Sardinian @ 8.24
    7 66.8% Greek_Thessaly + 33.2% Sardinian @ 8.48
    8 71.3% West_Sicilian + 28.7% Sardinian @ 9.01
    9 56.2% Libyan_Jewish + 43.8% Sardinian @ 9.47
    10 75.4% Tuscan + 24.6% Sardinian @ 9.75
    11 60.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 39.2% Sardinian @ 9.78
    12 64.8% Algerian_Jewish + 35.2% Sardinian @ 9.79
    13 58.2% North_Italian + 41.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 10.12
    14 54.3% Italian_Jewish + 45.7% North_Italian @ 10.2
    15 54.4% Sardinian + 45.6% Lebanese_Muslim @ 10.22
    16 59.2% Sardinian + 40.8% Assyrian @ 10.29
    17 51% Algerian_Jewish + 49% North_Italian @ 10.32
    18 58.6% Sardinian + 41.4% Lebanese_Druze @ 10.32
    19 73.2% South_Italian + 26.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 10.35
    20 66.8% Italian_Jewish + 33.2% Spanish_Galicia @ 10.41

    K15 PCA Coordinates:

    Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm



    Eurogenes K13 results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 31.11
    2 East_Med 30.15
    3 North_Atlantic 22.77
    4 West_Asian 8.14
    5 Baltic 4.36
    6 Red_Sea 3.47

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 West_Sicilian 8.99
    2 Tuscan 10.37
    3 South_Italian 11.27
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 12.35
    5 East_Sicilian 12.66
    6 Central_Greek 13.16
    7 Italian_Jewish 13.93
    8 Algerian_Jewish 14.11
    9 North_Italian 14.54
    10 Ashkenazi 15.08
    11 Sephardic_Jewish 15.08
    12 Greek_Thessaly 15.53
    13 Tunisian_Jewish 19.04
    14 Libyan_Jewish 19.47
    15 Spanish_Andalucia 20.53
    16 Spanish_Extremadura 20.9
    17 Sardinian 21.53
    18 Spanish_Murcia 21.8
    19 Portuguese 21.84
    20 Spanish_Valencia 21.97

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 72.3% West_Sicilian + 27.7% Sardinian @ 3.85
    2 67.1% South_Italian + 32.9% Sardinian @ 4.54
    3 64.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 35.2% Sardinian @ 4.7
    4 59.6% Ashkenazi + 40.4% Sardinian @ 5.19
    5 64.5% East_Sicilian + 35.5% Sardinian @ 5.34
    6 59.7% Sephardic_Jewish + 40.3% Sardinian @ 5.5
    7 62% Italian_Jewish + 38% Sardinian @ 5.55
    8 63.6% Central_Greek + 36.4% Sardinian @ 5.68
    9 73.3% Algerian_Jewish + 26.7% French_Basque @ 5.8
    10 74.1% Italian_Jewish + 25.9% French_Basque @ 6.51
    11 65.8% Algerian_Jewish + 34.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 6.51
    12 60.9% Algerian_Jewish + 39.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.51
    13 67.8% Algerian_Jewish + 32.2% Southwest_French @ 6.77
    14 62.9% Algerian_Jewish + 37.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 6.91
    15 64.2% Algerian_Jewish + 35.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 6.96
    16 72.7% Tuscan + 27.3% Sardinian @ 6.98
    17 61.6% Italian_Jewish + 38.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 6.99
    18 66.5% Algerian_Jewish + 33.5% Spanish_Cantabria @ 7.01
    19 61.2% Cyprian + 38.8% French_Basque @ 7.08
    20 68.4% Italian_Jewish + 31.6% Southwest_French @ 7.09

    Eurogenes K36:

    100694 SNPs used in this evaluation

    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian 2.82 Pct
    Armenian 6.06 Pct
    Basque 1.58 Pct

    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 0.67 Pct
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 3.39 Pct
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 0.66 Pct
    East_Med 16.73 Pct

    Eastern_Euro -
    Fennoscandian -
    French 4.38 Pct
    Iberian 8.36 Pct

    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 36.99 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African -
    North_Atlantic -
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 1.28 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural -
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian 3.63 Pct
    West_Med 13.45 Pct


    And also:

    Similarity Map:



    ^ It was a woman with mtDNA haplogroup H:

    Sample: I5769 (grave 8)*
    Epoch: Iron Age
    Latitude, Longitude: 43.16, 25.88
    Sex: Female
    Site: Dzhulyunitsa - near https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyaskovets
    Date: 500-400 BCE

    Not much context available:

    "I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)*

    Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm."

    *One source says grave 8, one says grave 9.

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    How she compares to Balkan Bronze Age samples:


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    Very Interesting, thanks for sharing.
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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting, modern Serbs plot halfway between Belgorod and ancient I5769:

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I5769 plots here: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel



    Belgorod is what I suggested before as probably a good proxy for Proto-Slavs:



    Let's call this guy a Thra-Slav:

    Abscisse (x-axis): 477 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 262 pixel


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Interesting, modern Serbs plot halfway between Belgorod and ancient I5769:

    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I5769 plots here: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel



    Belgorod is what I suggested before as probably a good proxy for Proto-Slavs:



    Let's call this guy a Thra-Slav:

    Abscisse (x-axis): 477 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 262 pixel

    Thracian sure... But Slavic in the Iron age in Modern Bulgaria?

    "Ancient Roman sources refer to the Early Slavic peoples as Veneti, who dwelled in a region of central Europe east of the Germanic tribe of Suebi, and west of the Iranian Sarmatians in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD.[11][12] The Slavs under name of the Antes and the Sclaveni first appear in Byzantine records in the early 6th century. "


    That's at the very least 800 years difference from your sample in modern Bulgaria and the etnonym Slav being used for the population in Bulgaria.



    Maybe I understood this wrong:

    "Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 11.98
    2 South_Italian 12.54
    3 West_Sicilian 12.55
    4 East_Sicilian 12.78
    5 Central_Greek 13.11
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 13.68
    7 Greek_Thessaly 13.77
    8 Italian_Jewish 14.15
    9 Algerian_Jewish 15.17
    10 Ashkenazi 15.36
    11 North_Italian 15.49
    12 Greek 15.57
    13 Sephardic_Jewish 16.87
    14 Libyan_Jewish 19.2
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 20.2
    16 Portuguese 21.5
    17 Bulgarian 21.51
    18 Spanish_Extremadura 21.65
    19 Spanish_Galicia 21.91
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 22.12"



    Maybe you and me are reading the sample differently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Thracian sure... But Slavic in the Iron age in Modern Bulgaria?

    "Ancient Roman sources refer to the Early Slavic peoples as Veneti, who dwelled in a region of central Europe east of the Germanic tribe of Suebi, and west of the Iranian Sarmatians in the 1st and 2nd centuries AD.[11][12] The Slavs under name of the Antes and the Sclaveni first appear in Byzantine records in the early 6th century. "


    That's at the very least 800 years difference from your sample in modern Bulgaria and the etnonym Slav being used for the population in Bulgaria.



    Maybe I understood this wrong:

    "Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 11.98
    2 South_Italian 12.54
    3 West_Sicilian 12.55
    4 East_Sicilian 12.78
    5 Central_Greek 13.11
    6 Italian_Abruzzo 13.68
    7 Greek_Thessaly 13.77
    8 Italian_Jewish 14.15
    9 Algerian_Jewish 15.17
    10 Ashkenazi 15.36
    11 North_Italian 15.49
    12 Greek 15.57
    13 Sephardic_Jewish 16.87
    14 Libyan_Jewish 19.2
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 20.2
    16 Portuguese 21.5
    17 Bulgarian 21.51
    18 Spanish_Extremadura 21.65
    19 Spanish_Galicia 21.91
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 22.12"



    Maybe you and me are reading the sample differently?
    He was trying to emulate what a mix of a Proto-Slav and Thracian would've looked like, hence the creation of the Thra-Slav sample(made by him). This Thracian sample was more southern shifted as you pointed out and was shown in the PCA.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Going by location this sample may have been part of the Moesi tribe of Thracians. They inhabited the Tarnovo area of Bulgaria which Lyaskovets is a part of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    He was trying to emulate what a mix of a Proto-Slav and Thracian would've looked like, hence the creation of the Thra-Slav sample(made by him). This Thracian sample was more southern shifted as you pointed out and was shown in the PCA.
    I see. Makes logical sense. If the Thraco-Slavic stipulated sample is right. Need to read Tomeanbles posts about Belgorod to fully grasp this one.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks. This is what I was waiting for. A confirmation of the pre Slavic (and other Northern European invasions) state of Balkans. Balkans and Italy had very similar genetically population in Iron Age. Slavic invasion into Balkans left extremely strong signature and pulled Balkans' genetics towards Northern Europe.

    Also, I mused some time ago that today's Crete might indicate state of pre slavic, classical Greek genetic composition. Now it looks that way.

    And remember the hypothesis that there was some population invasion from Anatolia/Armenia into South Europe to pull Greece and Italy to the East with "Caucasian and South Asian" admixture? It is not present yet in this Iron Age sample, or fully present. Either it wasn't a huge invasion but steady constant population inflow, a long process.

    However, I'm yet to run the sample through Harappa World on Gedmatch.
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^^
    Those in Western Balkans were already different (like today, there was a west-east cline from Croatia to Bulgaria):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Age-Balkan-DNA

    In this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I3313 Bronze Age Dalmatia: Abscisse (x-axis): 338 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 271 pixel
    I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

    So there was a west-east cline already in Pre-Slavic Balkans:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^
    Those in Western Balkans were already different (like today, there was a west-east cline from Croatia to Bulgaria):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Age-Balkan-DNA

    In this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I3313 Bronze Age Dalmatia: Abscisse (x-axis): 338 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 271 pixel
    I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

    So there was a west-east cline already in Pre-Slavic Balkans:

    Given the geography, populations, this graph makes a lot of sense.

    Thanks for taking the time to graph and share.

    Edit the cline I would characterize as North-West to South-East. Rather a 1:1 NW-SE correspondence.
    Last edited by Archetype0ne; 27-02-19 at 13:51.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    DNA Land Ancestry Report for this Ancient Bulgarian sample:


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^
    Those in Western Balkans were already different (like today, there was a west-east cline from Croatia to Bulgaria):

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Age-Balkan-DNA

    In this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I3313 Bronze Age Dalmatia: Abscisse (x-axis): 338 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 271 pixel
    I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

    So there was a west-east cline already in Pre-Slavic Balkans:

    Im reposting this request incase you missed it:

    Can you please do the same thing for I4331 from the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe as well?

    This sample is also ancient croatia, and J2b2-L283
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Im reposting this request incase you missed it:

    Can you please do the same thing for I4331 from the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe as well?

    This sample is also ancient croatia, and J2b2-L283

    I have messaged him and he said he is gonna do it.


    Would also like the E1b Neolithic found in Croatia added.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    I have messaged him and he said he is gonna do it.


    Would also like the E1b Neolithic found in Croatia added.
    Would like to see how the J-L283 sample compares to I3313, though I think they will be similar considering the time frame and location . The E-L618 Dalmatian will probably just end up plotting close to Sardinians like other EEF samples, they were all very similar genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Would like to see how the J-L283 sample compares to I3313, though I think they will be similar considering the time frame and location . The E-L618 Dalmatian will probably just end up plotting close to Sardinians like other EEF samples, they were all very similar genetically.
    Yeah that is very possible. its also possible Neolithic farmers mixed with some native hunter gatherers there

    I read a paper that this occured in Romania for example.

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    I5769 looked in the study more Sardinian oriented and with somewhat less Steppe ancestry. I'll look into this sample from an archaeological POV. It should be Thracian ofc, yet also it has to be said cremation was very widespread in Thracian groups..

    I3313 should per archaeological evidence be proto-Iapodian Illyrian, I looked into this locality and its archaeological affinities. If it was a male I would have guessed some R-U152 clade or E-L241, and some J-L283 would be my 3rd choice.

    E-L618 should also be interesting, it will be Sardinian-like but in the study this sample in most calculators is a flat Mediterranean line unlike most other Neolithic samples, so I'd be interested in whether he has some slight Natufian-like affinities or maybe N.African. As Natufian component was modeled in the study I guess not. But going by his components he seems extreme in Mediterranean direction, I think one Starčevo sample also looked similar.

    This is ofc from where V13 ultimately comes from, Cardial wave people quite different from the main Neolithic wave, so I'd be interested to see their genetic differences. They were culturally different and I believe that they likely spoke different languages. Also Dalmatian Cardial pottery people were far from being classical farmers to being with..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I5769 looked in the study more Sardinian oriented and with somewhat less Steppe ancestry. I'll look into this sample from an archaeological POV. It should be Thracian ofc, yet also it has to be said cremation was very widespread in Thracian groups..

    I3313 should per archaeological evidence be proto-Iapodian Illyrian, I looked into this locality and its archaeological affinities. If it was a male I would have guessed some R-U152 clade or E-L241, and some J-L283 would be my 3rd choice.

    E-L618 should also be interesting, it will be Sardinian-like but in the study this sample in most calculators is a flat Mediterranean line unlike most other Neolithic samples, so I'd be interested in whether he has some slight Natufian-like affinities or maybe N.African. As Natufian component was modeled in the study I guess not. But going by his components he seems extreme in Mediterranean direction, I think one Starčevo sample also looked similar.

    This is ofc from where V13 ultimately comes from, Cardial wave people quite different from the main Neolithic wave, so I'd be interested to see their genetic differences. They were culturally different and I believe that they likely spoke different languages. Also Dalmatian Cardial pottery people were far from being classical farmers to being with..
    Going by the region would you say I5769 was possibly part of the Moesi? They occupied roughly the same area

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post

    Let's call this guy a Thra-Slav:

    Abscisse (x-axis): 477 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 262 pixel


    Quite interesting. I am postitioned just next to Thra-Slav and no wonder since Gedmatch is modeling me usually as 50% South Italy and 50% Belarus/Poland

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    There were no Slavs neither East Germanics in 400-500 BC in Bulgaria.
    So this guy should have been a Thracian and the other guys, from Iron Age samples from Balkans, posted by Tomenable, which are close to current North Italy and Iberia populations, are Thraco-Celts, I think.
    They also score plenty of North Atlantic admixture.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...Age-Balkan-DNA
    So lol, originally Celts from Balkans had lots of North Atlantic and some Baltic admixture.
    Very interesting.

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    My family has lived in Thrace as far as I know forever. My Y haplogroup according to LivingDNA is R1b-M269. I suspect that those Celts that were roaming around the Balkans in the 3-4th century BC might be my ancestors. My coordinates are 556 and 335.Where does that put me on that map?

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    Just NE of Thessaly. Open the plot in Paint,go to View and check the boxes of Gridlines and Rulers. Follow the coordinates in the lower left corner as you move the cursor to pinpoint the exact location.


    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by td120 View Post
    Just NE of Thessaly. Open the plot in Paint,go to View and check the boxes of Gridlines and Rulers. Follow the coordinates in the lower left corner as you move the cursor to pinpoint the exact location.


    http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm
    Thanks, I really and truly appreciate it. Yeah but very close to Thessaly. I wonder which side of the family is closer to the Thessalian Greeks. I am willing to bet my father's side.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    more ancient samples from the Balkans and Hungary.




    ancient samples from all of Europe.

    Last edited by voloh; 08-07-19 at 22:02. Reason: mistake on pca

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The latest study on mitochondrial DNA from Thracian paleogenetic material and Proto-Bulgarian from pagan burials 8-10 century The survey was conducted in 2016. in Florentine University, whose laboratory is specialized in the study of the paleogenetic material. The tables of the report show the mitochondrial hippology of the respective samples of Proto-Bulgarian and Thracian genetic material, as well as a comparison of paleo DNA with that of 36 modern European populations. Page 31, Table 2- Results from the Bulgarian probes tested. Page 32, Table 3-Results from Thracian samples. Page40, Table 10 - Number of individuals belonging to mDNA hippocarpins and subgroups in the samples of 37 populations included in the PCA analysis.Under number 37 - Proto-Bulgarian samples. Page 43, Table 11 - under number 37 - Thracian paleo-probes. The comparison is made between the results of the study of Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and 37 populations from Europe and Asia. The comparison is based on 22 halo logs (H *,H5, HV0, HV, R0a, JT, U1, U2e, U3, U4, U5a, U5b, U6, U7, U8, U *, K, N1, N2, X, M and L). Samples of proto-Bulgarians and Thracians in this analysis are grouped into a single table, the number and ratio of halo logs not changing. Table 12 lists 36 populations from Europe and Asia with which they are compared
    Proto-Bulgarians and Thracians. Discuss the data obtained from the PCA (Principal Component Analysis) analysis of the results of all samples
    The comparative analysis between Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and contemporary Bulgarians shows their position among the populations of Europe and Asia. The graph of the PCA analysis (Figure 32) indicates where the populations are and their proximity to other populations. The Proto-Bulgarians are in close proximity to the modern Bulgarians, which confirms theirs
    kinship and continuity. In the immediate vicinity are Croats, Hungarians and the population of Central Italy. In close proximity are Romanians, Northern Italians, southern Italians, Sicilians and Greeks. They are distant from the Thracians, showing a lack of kinship and continuity between them according to the initial data on the Thracians. The Proto-Bulgarians are also remote from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. There is also a lack of proximity to Northern and Eastern Europe. The Thracians are close to Austrians, Slovenes, Bosnians. They are distant from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/...8Kg52O3V_mLgMs

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