Iron Age Balkan DNA on GEDmatch

My family has lived in Thrace as far as I know forever. My Y haplogroup according to LivingDNA is R1b-M269. I suspect that those Celts that were roaming around the Balkans in the 3-4th century BC might be my ancestors. My coordinates are 556 and 335.Where does that put me on that map?
 
Just NE of Thessaly. Open the plot in Paint,go to View and check the boxes of Gridlines and Rulers. Follow the coordinates in the lower left corner as you move the cursor to pinpoint the exact location.


http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

Thanks, I really and truly appreciate it. Yeah but very close to Thessaly. I wonder which side of the family is closer to the Thessalian Greeks. I am willing to bet my father's side.
 
more ancient samples from the Balkans and Hungary.

wQIl8kD

wQIl8kD.png


ancient samples from all of Europe.

QYl4jjM.png
 
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The latest study on mitochondrial DNA from Thracian paleogenetic material and Proto-Bulgarian from pagan burials 8-10 century The survey was conducted in 2016. in Florentine University, whose laboratory is specialized in the study of the paleogenetic material. The tables of the report show the mitochondrial hippology of the respective samples of Proto-Bulgarian and Thracian genetic material, as well as a comparison of paleo DNA with that of 36 modern European populations. Page 31, Table 2- Results from the Bulgarian probes tested. Page 32, Table 3-Results from Thracian samples. Page40, Table 10 - Number of individuals belonging to mDNA hippocarpins and subgroups in the samples of 37 populations included in the PCA analysis.Under number 37 - Proto-Bulgarian samples. Page 43, Table 11 - under number 37 - Thracian paleo-probes. The comparison is made between the results of the study of Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and 37 populations from Europe and Asia. The comparison is based on 22 halo logs (H *,H5, HV0, HV, R0a, JT, U1, U2e, U3, U4, U5a, U5b, U6, U7, U8, U *, K, N1, N2, X, M and L). Samples of proto-Bulgarians and Thracians in this analysis are grouped into a single table, the number and ratio of halo logs not changing. Table 12 lists 36 populations from Europe and Asia with which they are compared
Proto-Bulgarians and Thracians. Discuss the data obtained from the PCA (Principal Component Analysis) analysis of the results of all samples
The comparative analysis between Proto-Bulgarians, Thracians and contemporary Bulgarians shows their position among the populations of Europe and Asia. The graph of the PCA analysis (Figure 32) indicates where the populations are and their proximity to other populations. The Proto-Bulgarians are in close proximity to the modern Bulgarians, which confirms theirs
kinship and continuity. In the immediate vicinity are Croats, Hungarians and the population of Central Italy. In close proximity are Romanians, Northern Italians, southern Italians, Sicilians and Greeks. They are distant from the Thracians, showing a lack of kinship and continuity between them according to the initial data on the Thracians. The Proto-Bulgarians are also remote from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. There is also a lack of proximity to Northern and Eastern Europe. The Thracians are close to Austrians, Slovenes, Bosnians. They are distant from Turks, Tatars, Chuvashi, Udmurti, Comi, Bashkir, Morvini and others. http://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/...8Kg52O3V_mLgMs
 
"slavic" DNA in these analysis (rather rough) doesn't mean true Slavic ancestry, IMO, but perhaps an ancestry close the Slavs one, what is not exactly the same? IA saw a lot of moves of big and small bands, I think. But this could point to a far enough place of origin.
 
It turns out the Slavic occupation was not that exaggerated by the Byzantines as some would argue.
 
Even Thracians plot southwest of modern Thessalians, imagine what distance ancient Macedonians and ancient Thessalians will have with modern Thessalians and modern Greek Macedonians in PCA. I guess Byzantines didn't describe Thessaloniki as a Roman island in Slavic sea for no reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vlachia

So much for South Slavs being little ''Slavic''. The genetic science does wonders.
 
Plotted me and my father. I am the blue dot and my father is the green dot right under me.

dibrank15.png


Sorry for the late response; I just saw this. Very interesting.

What program was used?

I asked because based on the work we're doing on the Vahaduo site I don't think the "Illyrian" samples would plot there (i.e. so close to the Spanish samples), although I didn't do a PCA. The Iron Age "Thracian" was described in the original paper as "Tuscan" like. Actually, it looks more to me like Lazio or Campania, but the paper only used 1000 genomes, so obviously Tuscan was the closest they could come.

As for using this sample to judge the amount of "Slavic" ancestry in the Balkans, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea. By that I mean that this particular "Thracian" might not have been "typical", or at least not all Iron Age Thracians were like him. They might have been, or they might not have been. My recollection is that the Bronze Age samples from that region plot further "north". Did they just pass through, or did they stay and really influence the genetics of a lot of people. The only pretty accurate way to know how much influence the Slavic migrations had is, imo, to get more than one, and hopefully a scattered sample of people from the Balkans from the Imperial Era and then compare them to modern people. I don't think it can be some huge amount of Slavi given how much Neolithic and CHG/Iranian like or what used to be called "West Asian" there still is in the Balkans, but time will tell.

Distance to:IllyrianDalmatian_I3313
3.56275646Italy_Lombardy
4.78770749Italy_Emilia
4.93995082Italy_Liguria
5.14574766Italy_Veneto
5.39127537Italy_Piedmont
6.07536254Italy_Tuscany
6.54086099Swiss_Italian
7.53474883Italy_Trentino
8.14842046France_Corsica
8.45013349Italy_FriuliVG
8.57974941Italy_Romagna
9.78872702Italy_Aosta_Valley
11.74627933Italy_Marche
12.03777155Italy_Lazio
12.29336406Albanian_North
12.42080915Albanian_Kosovo
14.46197428Baleares
16.46757724Galicia
17.19215810Extremadura
17.51714611Italy_Abruzzo
18.13725448Portuguese
18.50866554Murcia
18.86604092Andalucia
19.05735291Greek
19.22266111Castilla_Y_Leon
 
Sorry for the late response; I just saw this. Very interesting.

What program was used?

I asked because based on the work we're doing on the Vahaduo site I don't think the "Illyrian" samples would plot there (i.e. so close to the Spanish samples), although I didn't do a PCA. The Iron Age "Thracian" was described in the original paper as "Tuscan" like. Actually, it looks more to me like Lazio or Campania, but the paper only used 1000 genomes, so obviously Tuscan was the closest they could come.

As for using this sample to judge the amount of "Slavic" ancestry in the Balkans, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea. By that I mean that this particular "Thracian" might not have been "typical", or at least not all Iron Age Thracians were like him. They might have been, or they might not have been. My recollection is that the Bronze Age samples from that region plot further "north". Did they just pass through, or did they stay and really influence the genetics of a lot of people. The only pretty accurate way to know how much influence the Slavic migrations had is, imo, to get more than one, and hopefully a scattered sample of people from the Balkans from the Imperial Era and then compare them to modern people. I don't think it can be some huge amount of Slavi given how much Neolithic and CHG/Iranian like or what used to be called "West Asian" there still is in the Balkans, but time will tell.

Distance to:IllyrianDalmatian_I3313
3.56275646Italy_Lombardy
4.78770749Italy_Emilia
4.93995082Italy_Liguria
5.14574766Italy_Veneto
5.39127537Italy_Piedmont
6.07536254Italy_Tuscany
6.54086099Swiss_Italian
7.53474883Italy_Trentino
8.14842046France_Corsica
8.45013349Italy_FriuliVG
8.57974941Italy_Romagna
9.78872702Italy_Aosta_Valley
11.74627933Italy_Marche
12.03777155Italy_Lazio
12.29336406Albanian_North
12.42080915Albanian_Kosovo
14.46197428Baleares
16.46757724Galicia
17.19215810Extremadura
17.51714611Italy_Abruzzo
18.13725448Portuguese
18.50866554Murcia
18.86604092Andalucia
19.05735291Greek
19.22266111Castilla_Y_Leon

Hey. If I remember correctly(posted some time ago) I believe its the K15 PCA. So, I believe it may not be accurate now that G25 is available.

I think its merely a mix-up of certain components, shifting samples to and fro. For example a half Lebanese, half Polish person from TA came out "Romanian" on Gedmatch. Perhaps due to similar components pulling them closer.

Taking this into account, and as some theorize that Slavs may have already been close to the Danube; it is possible not all the Neolithic/Southern like admixture in Slavs is from the Balkans or even vice versa(depending upon their impact). They may have already had significant Southern-like admixture. Which would mean some of the Neolithic may be from Slavs to. Doubtful they were strictly steppe ANE.

What Vahaduo calc is that by the way? I would like to run mine and see.
 
Hey. If I remember correctly(posted some time ago) I believe its the K15 PCA. So, I believe it may not be accurate now that G25 is available.

I think its merely a mix-up of certain components, shifting samples to and fro. For example a half Lebanese, half Polish person from TA came out "Romanian" on Gedmatch. Perhaps due to similar components pulling them closer.

Taking this into account, and as some theorize that Slavs may have already been close to the Danube; it is possible not all the Neolithic/Southern like admixture in Slavs is from the Balkans or even vice versa(depending upon their impact). They may have already had significant Southern-like admixture. Which would mean some of the Neolithic may be from Slavs to. Doubtful they were strictly steppe ANE.

What Vahaduo calc is that by the way? I would like to run mine and see.

That particular one is the updated K12b. I just input that particular sample as the target.
 
That particular one is the updated K12b. I just input that particular sample as the target.
Ahh I see. I wiped my Gedmatch after the new law/update. Probably should have saved my coordinates for Vahaduo first lol.
 
Ancient Balkanites before the Slavs were extremely close to Italians. This is not the first time were ancient people of Balkans end close to modern Italians. They were probably nearly indentical in antiquity.
 
Sorry for the late response; I just saw this. Very interesting.

What program was used?

I asked because based on the work we're doing on the Vahaduo site I don't think the "Illyrian" samples would plot there (i.e. so close to the Spanish samples), although I didn't do a PCA. The Iron Age "Thracian" was described in the original paper as "Tuscan" like. Actually, it looks more to me like Lazio or Campania, but the paper only used 1000 genomes, so obviously Tuscan was the closest they could come.

As for using this sample to judge the amount of "Slavic" ancestry in the Balkans, I don't think that's necessarily a good idea. By that I mean that this particular "Thracian" might not have been "typical", or at least not all Iron Age Thracians were like him. They might have been, or they might not have been. My recollection is that the Bronze Age samples from that region plot further "north". Did they just pass through, or did they stay and really influence the genetics of a lot of people. The only pretty accurate way to know how much influence the Slavic migrations had is, imo, to get more than one, and hopefully a scattered sample of people from the Balkans from the Imperial Era and then compare them to modern people. I don't think it can be some huge amount of Slavi given how much Neolithic and CHG/Iranian like or what used to be called "West Asian" there still is in the Balkans, but time will tell.

Distance to:IllyrianDalmatian_I3313
3.56275646Italy_Lombardy
4.78770749Italy_Emilia
4.93995082Italy_Liguria
5.14574766Italy_Veneto
5.39127537Italy_Piedmont
6.07536254Italy_Tuscany
6.54086099Swiss_Italian
7.53474883Italy_Trentino
8.14842046France_Corsica
8.45013349Italy_FriuliVG
8.57974941Italy_Romagna
9.78872702Italy_Aosta_Valley
11.74627933Italy_Marche
12.03777155Italy_Lazio
12.29336406Albanian_North
12.42080915Albanian_Kosovo
14.46197428Baleares
16.46757724Galicia
17.19215810Extremadura
17.51714611Italy_Abruzzo
18.13725448Portuguese
18.50866554Murcia
18.86604092Andalucia
19.05735291Greek
19.22266111Castilla_Y_Leon

The result of the Thracian sample fits the rhyme with most ancient Balkan samples as in being significantly more south-western shifted towards Italy and this result can only be attributed to the Slavic invasion. But seeing some other samples in that map really disappointed me (very close to Spain, Hungary etc) it does not look to me a very accurate presentation. I would rather not come up with conclusions until more data gives enough information.
 
The result of the Thracian sample fits the rhyme with most ancient Balkan samples as in being significantly more south-western shifted towards Italy and this result can only be attributed to the Slavic invasion. But seeing some other samples in that map really disappointed me (very close to Spain, Hungary etc) it does not look to me a very accurate presentation. I would rather not come up with conclusions until more data gives enough information.

Since the PCA is based on K15, I agree.
 
today modern bulgarians
score % in central euro
and east central euro elements in eurogenes k36

contrary to this iron age thracian woman ......... ( which is expected as those elements were very likely brought by slavic invaders to east balkan region )
it is a very cool sample :)
 
Tomenable, can you run modern Bulgarians in calculator to show Thracian vs West Ukrainian difference in terms of ancestry, please. Can you do the same for Croats and bronze age Dalmatians.
 
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The result of the Thracian sample fits the rhyme with most ancient Balkan samples as in being significantly more south-western shifted towards Italy and this result can only be attributed to the Slavic invasion. But seeing some other samples in that map really disappointed me (very close to Spain, Hungary etc) it does not look to me a very accurate presentation. I would rather not come up with conclusions until more data gives enough information.

By the way, a 1956 craniologic report by Charles concerning ChalcoL in Italy, said that two models were in competition, one more southern, "mediterranean", surely Helladic mediated, and one more "northern", where newcomers showed, according to his typology and means (not fully described by him it's true), close ties with the Balkanic pop of the time, he labelled as "balkano-mediterranean"; people he supposed come by land, so through N-East Italy. But he is (or was) not an archeologist.
 

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