a late Neanderthal refugium in the Altaï area?

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bicicleur 2

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the latest dating data from Denisova cave suggests it was occupied roughly ca 290-190 ka by Denisovans, ca 190-90 ka by Neanderthals and ca 90-55 ka by Denisovans again
ca 49-46 ka tools and objects were found in the Denisova cave suggesting the presence of modern humans (homo sapiens)

yet there are 2 other caves in the Altaï area which were occupied by Neanderthals much later : 45-38 ka, that is till ca 1000 years after they got extinct in Europe
the caves are Chagyrskaya and Okladnikov : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okladnikov_Cave
in both caves similar, somewhat distinct Mousterian tools were found, and the Okladnikov 2 DNA shows they were more related to European Neanderthals than to the older Altaï Neanderthals

how did these late Neanderthals get that far east?
were they on the run for the spreading homo sapiens?

i'd like to hear your opinions and ideas on this matter
 
I think we know little about the eastern extent of Neanderthal Mousterian assemblages. There are hypotheses about Mousterian sites in Sindh (Indus Valley) for example, but I'm not sure if this was actually confirmed and if it was, whether those sites were really associated with Neanderthals. Research in these areas is a bit lacking. This might be interesting:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...a_Forgotten_Region_of_the_Indian_Subcontinent
 
markod said:
I think we know little about the eastern extent of Neanderthal Mousterian assemblages. There are hypotheses about Mousterian sites in Sindh (Indus Valley) for example, but I'm not sure if this was actually confirmed and if it was, whether those sites were really associated with Neanderthals. Research in these areas is a bit lacking. This might be interesting:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...a_Forgotten_Region_of_the_Indian_Subcontinent
Click to expand...

afaik this is based solely on lithics
 
It's hard to conceive things when we are only speaking about Genomics. We dont even have any kind of idea, of the skull, the average height of Denisovans. They are genomically, more distant that any kind of humans between them, but what if they looked exactly like Neanderthals? The could probably dont even have notion that they were separate species. Were did the early Denisovans went to, and from where did the late Denisovans come from? Afontova Gora 3 had 2 to 3% of their genome from Neanderthals, and looking at the dating, it's probably not from the early mating ( Oase, Ust-Ishim ). I wonder if those Altai Neanderthals were actually a big factor to ANE and East Asians populations.
 
bicicleur said:
the latest dating data from Denisova cave suggests it was occupied roughly ca 290-190 ka by Denisovans, ca 190-90 ka by Neanderthals and ca 90-55 ka by Denisovans again
ca 49-46 ka tools and objects were found in the Denisova cave suggesting the presence of modern humans (homo sapiens)

yet there are 2 other caves in the Altaï area which were occupied by Neanderthals much later : 45-38 ka, that is till ca 1000 years after they got extinct in Europe
the caves are Chagyrskaya and Okladnikov : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okladnikov_Cave
in both caves similar, somewhat distinct Mousterian tools were found, and the Okladnikov 2 DNA shows they were more related to European Neanderthals than to the older Altaï Neanderthals

how did these late Neanderthals get that far east?
were they on the run for the spreading homo sapiens?

i'd like to hear your opinions and ideas on this matter
Click to expand...

Btw, i dont remember if it was you or Epoch who spoked about that once but, there is a very high probability, that European Neanderthals ( Vindija, Mezmaiskaya ) were wiped out by the volcanic winter after the 40'000 BC volcanic eruption in Southern Italy. Those late Altai Neanderthals maybe were part of some Eastern European neanderthals running away Europe. There was both ash layers on Kostenki site and the Mezmaiskaya Cave.
 
halfalp said:
Btw, i dont remember if it was you or Epoch who spoked about that once but, there is a very high probability, that European Neanderthals ( Vindija, Mezmaiskaya ) were wiped out by the volcanic winter after the 40'000 BC volcanic eruption in Southern Italy. Those late Altai Neanderthals maybe were part of some Eastern European neanderthals running away Europe. There was both ash layers on Kostenki site and the Mezmaiskaya Cave.
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Yes, but if the volcanic winter had such impact, why Neanderthals were whipped out and modern humans not?
Probably climat fluctuations had a larger impact ca 40 ka.
Lots of icebergs were floating on the northern Atlantic at that time.
 
bicicleur said:
Yes, but if the volcanic winter had such impact, why Neanderthals were whipped out and modern humans not?
Probably climat fluctuations had a larger impact ca 40 ka.
Lots of icebergs were floating on the northern Atlantic at that time.
Click to expand...

The reason is maybe that Sapiens mainly the C2a1 and U2 people weren't really already settled in Europe before this volcanic winter. Probably Sapiens were in Europe already before, but the founder effect population of Goyet, Sunghir, Kostenki and Vestonice, wasn't maybe in mainland Europe already at the time. This could also explained why Iberian Neanderthals seems to have survived a little bit longer, than Eastern European and Caucasian ones.
 
halfalp said:
The reason is maybe that Sapiens mainly the C2a1 and U2 people weren't really already settled in Europe before this volcanic winter. Probably Sapiens were in Europe already before, but the founder effect population of Goyet, Sunghir, Kostenki and Vestonice, wasn't maybe in mainland Europe already at the time. This could also explained why Iberian Neanderthals seems to have survived a little bit longer, than Eastern European and Caucasian ones.
Click to expand...

in Europe, most Neanderthals were replaced by Aurignacians ca 40 ka
Aurignacians emerged in Europe only 43.5 ka
probably other modern humans were allready in Europe ca 48 ka
 
I think that the disappearance of the Neardental could be because it was in the diet of homo sapiens and probably at some point it became an easy way to obtain food, unlike animals that could flee more quickly or had claws and fangs. Probably when the homospaiens arrives and observes the territory or landscape includes the neardental as a game, perhaps at the beginning is sporadic hunting and at some point for some climatic issue, hunger e.t.c. the neardental becomes the easiest goal. You only have to see in Europe how the bear, the wolf and other wild animals have disappeared. The term hunter-gatherers already says it. Hunting as the main means of subsistence. Why did not it happen the other way around? I think homo sapiens should be more agile, more cheating. It could have generated a great stress in the near-dental population, perhaps unable to react while their population decimated on the plate of homo sapiens.
 
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