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Thread: Yamnayan decline

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    Yamnayan decline

    Data suggests a decline or collapse of Yamnayan populations in the Central Steppe during the late third millennium BC, and its replacement by (for want of a better expression) Indo-Aryan types, approximately as below:
    Samara 3,000 BC -100% Yamnayan
    to Poltavka 2,400 BC - 60% Yamnayan
    to Potapovka 2,200 BC - 30% Yamnayan
    to Sintashta 2,000 BC - 1% Yamnayan

    Does anyone have any data or other information/suggestions about this?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Data suggests a decline or collapse of Yamnayan populations in the Central Steppe during the late third millennium BC, and its replacement by (for want of a better expression) Indo-Aryan types, approximately as below:
    Samara 3,000 BC -100% Yamnayan
    to Poltavka 2,400 BC - 60% Yamnayan
    to Potapovka 2,200 BC - 30% Yamnayan
    to Sintashta 2,000 BC - 1% Yamnayan

    Does anyone have any data or other information/suggestions about this?
    I think it is b/c of "Tin bronze" seima turbino which has been killed by all scholars. Especially Anthony said that SM main industry was "fishing and hunting."
    I need opinion about the relationship between Abashevo and SM, which will solve everything.
    Kuzmina stated that andronovo expansion was closely related with Tin bronze expansion. So who competed with SM tin bronze?


    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_289671485


    https://indo-european.eu/tag/seima-turbino/

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    Moreover, MLBA Andronovo east has more EHG than MLBA steppe west and LBA steppe- zevakinski most EHG among them. I think it means some EHG R1a-z93 would survive in siberia until late bronze.


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    Looks like seima turbino entered IVC with shaman symbol, “Y” 2,000BC

    In india:

    https://www.archaeology.org/issues/3...nauli-chariots


    https://scfh.ru/en/papers/hunters-for-ancient-genes/[/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Data suggests a decline or collapse of Yamnayan populations in the Central Steppe during the late third millennium BC, and its replacement by (for want of a better expression) Indo-Aryan types, approximately as below:
    Samara 3,000 BC -100% Yamnayan
    to Poltavka 2,400 BC - 60% Yamnayan
    to Potapovka 2,200 BC - 30% Yamnayan
    to Sintashta 2,000 BC - 1% Yamnayan

    Does anyone have any data or other information/suggestions about this?
    the 4.2 ka climate change had a lot to do with Yamna decline

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    Moreover, MLBA Andronovo east has more EHG than MLBA steppe west and LBA steppe- zevakinski most EHG among them. I think it means some EHG R1a-z93 would survive in siberia until late bronze.

    This chart seems to show Yamnaya as a dead-end, apart from in admixture with 'Steppe MLBA Cloud' (Corded Ware/Sintashta).

    This looks about right by yDNA and autosomally. Remaining Yamnaya seems to have morphed into Poltavka; it largely retained R1b-Z2103, but was affected by admixture with surrounding populations (including Siberians and Corded Ware/Sintashta-related people). By 2,250 BC, its genetic contribution to the region was collapsing, and its paternal lineages had been replaced by R1a-M417.

    One question is - was Yamnayan DNA displaced or eliminated? My suggestion is that it was substantially displaced southwards and over some period between 2,600 BC and 2,200 BC:
    1. Autosomal analysis of Bronze Age Armenia indicates that Steppe-like people with similar yDNA and aDNA to Poltavka arrived there at some point between 2,600 and 1,500 BC.
    2. R1b-Z2103 has been found in the Northern Caucasus dated to the first half of the third millennium BC.
    3. yDNA phylogeny in Armenia suggests that there was a wide coverage of basal Z2103 subclades included in this move, perhaps making a date at the early end of this range more likely. Estimates are that these subclades branched away from each other before 3,000 BC, but still coalesce to the Caucasus.

    It looks like some surviving Yamnayan populations largely headed South, partly under pressure from R1a-M417 people (who had almost completely replaced them, paternally and autosomally, by 2,000 BC) and - as Bicicleur points out - partly due to climate change. The climate change did not seem to bother the M417 people so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    This chart seems to show Yamnaya as a dead-end, apart from in admixture with 'Steppe MLBA Cloud' (Corded Ware/Sintashta).

    This looks about right by yDNA and autosomally. Remaining Yamnaya seems to have morphed into Poltavka; it largely retained R1b-Z2103, but was affected by admixture with surrounding populations (including Siberians and Corded Ware/Sintashta-related people). By 2,250 BC, its genetic contribution to the region was collapsing, and its paternal lineages had been replaced by R1a-M417.

    One question is - was Yamnayan DNA displaced or eliminated? My suggestion is that it was substantially displaced southwards and over some period between 2,600 BC and 2,200 BC:
    1. Autosomal analysis of Bronze Age Armenia indicates that Steppe-like people with similar yDNA and aDNA to Poltavka arrived there at some point between 2,600 and 1,500 BC.
    2. R1b-Z2103 has been found in the Northern Caucasus dated to the first half of the third millennium BC.
    3. yDNA phylogeny in Armenia suggests that there was a wide coverage of basal Z2103 subclades included in this move, perhaps making a date at the early end of this range more likely. Estimates are that these subclades branched away from each other before 3,000 BC, but still coalesce to the Caucasus.

    It looks like some surviving Yamnayan populations largely headed South, partly under pressure from R1a-M417 people (who had almost completely replaced them, paternally and autosomally, by 2,000 BC) and - as Bicicleur points out - partly due to climate change. The climate change did not seem to bother the M417 people so much.
    Try and be a little more specific in your choice of snp's, otherwise you will attract numerous archaeogentic perverts lurking on this forum.
    R1a R1b from Volga and Yamnaya-aka Pit grave, come in many flavors.[ for example R1b-M73 , R1b-V1636, R1b-KMS75]

    Maybe then you can explain..
    The name Dniester derives from Sarmatian dānu nazdya "the close river."[4] The Dnieper, also of Sarmatian origin, derives from the opposite meaning, "the river on the far side". Alternatively, according to Vasily Abaev Dniester would be a blend of Scythian dānu "river" and Thracian Ister, the previous name of the river, literally Dān-Ister (River Ister).[5] The Ancient Greek name of Dniester, Tyras (Τύρας), is from Scythian tūra, meaning "rapid."[citation needed] The names of the Don and Danube are also from the same Indo-Iranian word *dānu "river". Classical authors have also referred to it as Danaster. These early forms, without -i- but with -a-, contradict Abaev's hypothesis. Edward Gibbon refers to the river both as the Niester and Dniester in his History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.[6]

    Be wary of those who graduate from the university of perversity & diversity by destroying and
    demonizing the past, underestimating the present, and glorifying the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Try and be a little more specific in your choice of snp's, otherwise you will attract numerous archaeogentic perverts lurking on this forum.
    R1a R1b from Volga and Yamnaya-aka Pit grave, come in many flavors.[ for example R1b-M73 , R1b-V1636, R1b-KMS75]

    Maybe then you can explain..
    We can see that M73, V1636 and KMS75 declined, or possibly never really flourished, so it is harder to trace their developments. Z2103 as a whole appears to have been a predominant and substantial Yamnayan SNP, and we can see that most of its extant branches appear to coalesce in the Caucasus.

    My starting of this thread was more prompted by autosomal data, linking Bronze Age changes in Armenian DNA to various populations in the Northern Steppe from Poland to Siberia.

    There also seem to be signs associating the decline/heavy dilution/displacement of Yamnayan populations by the Volga with a migration of R1a-M417 lineages from the West.

    One possible explanation for the river names is that the eastwards-retreating branch of the Suvorovo took the names of the rivers from where they were based originally (Danube/Dniester) and gave these names to the rivers they migrated to (Dniepr/Donets). But this is only a guess.
    Last edited by Pip; 02-03-19 at 21:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    We can see that M73, V1636 and KMS75 declined, or possibly never really flourished, so it is harder to trace their developments. Z2103 as a whole appears to have been a predominant and substantial Yamnayan SNP, and we can see that most of its extant branches appear to coalesce in the Caucasus.

    My starting of this thread was more prompted by autosomal data, linking Bronze Age changes in Armenian DNA to various populations in the Northern Steppe from Poland to Siberia.

    There also seem to be signs associating the decline/heavy dilution/displacement of Yamnayan populations by the Volga with a migration of R1a-M417 lineages from the West.

    One possible explanation for the river names is that the eastwards-retreating branch of the Suvorovo took the names of the rivers from where they were based originally (Danube/Dniester) and gave these names to the rivers they migrated to (Dniepr/Donets). But this is only a guess.
    Are Burzyan Bashkirs R1b>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>KMS77? They seem to have slightly more than R1a samples, no?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/


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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Maybe then you can explain..
    Sorry, I only replied to your rivers comment in a rush before going out, and didn't have time to fully consider it.

    I suppose the idea that the names Danube, Dniester, Dnieper and Don derive from the Sarmatians/Scythians makes sense, although isn't Danu considered to be a generic PIE root word?

    I haven't researched it, but my guess in any case is that the Sarmatians/Scythians derived substantially from R1a populations based in the Western Steppe. In my opinion, these populations, in turn, were predominantly the products of retreating Suvorovo who might well have spoken a similar language themselves by the time they spread further eastwards (just before 2,000 BC) and so might have already used similar names for these rivers.

    If Sarmatians and Scythians were eastern tribes, as many believe, I wonder why they would have named the western rivers as the near ones and the eastern rivers as the far ones. The suggestion from etymology is perhaps that the originators of these names lived near to the westernmost of these rivers - the Danube?

    I'm not sure that there were any significant Yamnayan contributions to any of these populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Are Burzyan Bashkirs R1b>Z2103>Z2106>Z2108>KMS77? They seem to have slightly more than R1a samples, no?
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2108/

    Yes, although from this chart, you cannot tell what types of R1b-M269 these 34% of Bashkirs are, and how they got there. It might have been via migrations from the Northern Caucasus and/or even Western Europe. I suppose the likelihood is that the paternal origin of many Bashkirs does involve Yamnaya, but even today, Bashkirs make up a pretty small population, so this does not negate the idea that Yamnayan DNA declined substantially.

    Known KMS77 is a pretty small population, and (i) one half of it is South/West European, (ii) the other half looks more likely to be Caucasus-derived.

    I haven't analysed it, but at first sight modern Bashkirs look autosomally closer to a mix of Mongolian populations with ancient R1a, rather than R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Yes, although from this chart, you cannot tell what types of R1b-M269 these 34% of Bashkirs are, and how they got there. It might have been via migrations from the Northern Caucasus and/or even Western Europe. I suppose the likelihood is that the paternal origin of many Bashkirs does involve Yamnaya, but even today, Bashkirs make up a pretty small population, so this does not negate the idea that Yamnayan DNA declined substantially.

    Known KMS77 is a pretty small population, and (i) one half of it is South/West European, (ii) the other half looks more likely to be Caucasus-derived.

    I haven't analysed it, but at first sight modern Bashkirs look autosomally closer to a mix of Mongolian populations with ancient R1a, rather than R1b.

    Would you agree that Yamnaya sample IO370 is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky 33% R1b?



    Last edited by Silesian; 04-03-19 at 00:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Would you agree that Yamnaya sample IO370 is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky 33% R1b?



    Geographically, it is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky, and a bit of an outlier from core Yamnaya.

    Genetically, it is close to core Yamnaya, but different to Bashkir (which is an admixture of Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Siberian).

    Having now analysed some autosomal data, I see modern Bashkirs appearing indeed to have a Yamnayan component to their DNA - by my estimate, about 15% of its Pontic-Caspian DNA derives from Yamnaya and 85% from Ukrainian R1a; whereas Sintashta appears wholly or substantially derived from Ukrainian R1a.

    Accordingly, I still see Bashkirs as symptomatic of Yamnayan decline, rather than Yamnayan elimination. As in the Caucasus, the Urals might have provided refuges for certain Yamnayan groups in the face of R1a expansionism. There also appears to be some close and fairly recent genetic links between the Caucasus and the Urals, and I am not sure what the direction of travel would have been between the two.

    What do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Geographically, it is close to Bashkir-Burzyansky, and a bit of an outlier from core Yamnaya.

    Genetically, it is close to core Yamnaya, but different to Bashkir (which is an admixture of Pontic-Caspian Steppe and Siberian).

    Having now analysed some autosomal data, I see modern Bashkirs appearing indeed to have a Yamnayan component to their DNA - by my estimate, about 15% of its Pontic-Caspian DNA derives from Yamnaya and 85% from Ukrainian R1a; whereas Sintashta appears wholly or substantially derived from Ukrainian R1a.

    Accordingly, I still see Bashkirs as symptomatic of Yamnayan decline, rather than Yamnayan elimination. As in the Caucasus, the Urals might have provided refuges for certain Yamnayan groups in the face of R1a expansionism. There also appears to be some close and fairly recent genetic links between the Caucasus and the Urals, and I am not sure what the direction of travel would have been between the two.

    What do you think?
    Yes I would agree that they are related. In other words R1b-KMS77 derives directly from Yamnaya. There is something I find interesting about this sample. It is located to one of the earliest Sarmatian samples.
    http://homeland.ku.dk/

    The first Sarmatians are mostly identified with the Prokhorovka culture, which moved from the southern Urals to the Lower Volga and then northern Pontic steppe, in the 4th–3rd centuries BC. During the migration, the Sarmatians seem to have grown and divided themselves into several groups, such as the Alans, Aorsi, Roxolani and Iazyges. By 200 BC, the Sarmatians replaced the Scythians as the dominant people of the steppes.[15] The Sarmatians and Scythians had fought on the Pontic steppe to the north of the Black Sea.[16] The Sarmatians, described as a large confederation,[17] were to dominate these territories over the next five centuries.[18] According to Brzezinski and Mielczarek, the Sarmatians were formed between the Don River and the Ural Mountains.[18]Pliny the Elder (23–79 AD) wrote that they ranged from the Vistula River (in present-day Poland) to the Danube.The Sarmatians differed from the Scythians in their veneration of the god of fire rather than god of nature, and women's prominent role in warfare, which possibly served as the inspiration for the Amazons.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Yes I would agree that they are related. In other words R1b-KMS77 derives directly from Yamnaya. There is something I find interesting about this sample. It is located to one of the earliest Sarmatian samples.
    http://homeland.ku.dk/




    If correct, and Yamnayan/Poltavkan Z2103 samples were all KMS67, with other branches of Z2109 being West/Central European, then this would (i) place formational Z2109 in a position more likely in West/Central Europe or somewhere intermediate between the two, and (ii) provide additional indication of the decline of Yamnayan lineages - as KMS67 appears to have a pretty small modern population.

    We cannot tell if Lentz was paternally Yamnaya-derived or from another population ancestral to Yamnaya. His STRs are only similar to two other North West European samples, and are very different to Eastern KMS67 samples, so I suspect the ancestors of these three might have broken off westwards pre-Yamnaya.

    This just leaves, as you identify, two or three modern KMS77 samples, with probable early branchings into (i) Iraq, and (ii) Bashkortostan. Additionally, STRs identical to Bashkir samples show up in Dagestan, and it is not clear whether their DNA originates in the Urals or the Caucasus, although their closest relation being Iraqi would lean me towards the Caucasus, particularly as other basal clades of Z2103 also coalesce there.

    As is the case with autosomal data, this does suggest there was a shrivelling of Yamnayan DNA, and its replacement by R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA does suggest a population change in the region, rather than an evacuation of it, would you agree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    If correct, and Yamnayan/Poltavkan Z2103 samples were all KMS67, with other branches of Z2109 being West/Central European, then this would (i) place formational Z2109 in a position more likely in West/Central Europe or somewhere intermediate between the two, and (ii) provide additional indication of the decline of Yamnayan lineages - as KMS67 appears to have a pretty small modern population.

    We cannot tell if Lentz was paternally Yamnaya-derived or from another population ancestral to Yamnaya. His STRs are only similar to two other North West European samples, and are very different to Eastern KMS67 samples, so I suspect the ancestors of these three might have broken off westwards pre-Yamnaya.

    This just leaves, as you identify, two or three modern KMS77 samples, with probable early branchings into (i) Iraq, and (ii) Bashkortostan. Additionally, STRs identical to Bashkir samples show up in Dagestan, and it is not clear whether their DNA originates in the Urals or the Caucasus, although their closest relation being Iraqi would lean me towards the Caucasus, particularly as other basal clades of Z2103 also coalesce there.

    As is the case with autosomal data, this does suggest there was a shrivelling of Yamnayan DNA, and its replacement by R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA does suggest a population change in the region, rather than an evacuation of it, would you agree?
    No, I would not agree.
    First we have to identify the specific snp branch of R1a. Is it found in Ukraine, Baltic, Caucasus, Arkaim-Sintashta fortresses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the 4.2 ka climate change had a lot to do with Yamna decline
    Was it a "decline" or simply a single highly male-biased "wave" that petered out, autosomally speaking, after, say, a dozen or so generations? With their Y-DNA lineages, language, and culture persisting much longer? They were, themselves, already admixed, and washed over and mixed/mated with other, already highly admixed, populations that preceded them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    No, I would not agree.
    First we have to identify the specific snp branch of R1a. Is it found in Ukraine, Baltic, Caucasus, Arkaim-Sintashta fortresses?
    Which part do you not agree with, and why?

    Do you think that Yamnayan DNA continued to thrive/predominate in the Steppe? (If so, what are its thriving yDNA and aDNA branches, and where is it located?) Do you alternatively think the Steppe was evacuated after Yamnaya? Or do you think that R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA did not increase in the region?

    I doubt there was only one specific branch of R1a in the population that thrived and this population might well have included other yDNA groups, but autosomal analysis and evidence from apparent brother populations like Sintashta would suggest it was predominantly Z93 and Northern Ukraine in origin. Is there evidence to suggest this was not the case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Which part do you not agree with, and why?

    Do you think that Yamnayan DNA continued to thrive/predominate in the Steppe? (If so, what are its thriving yDNA and aDNA branches, and where is it located?) Do you alternatively think the Steppe was evacuated after Yamnaya? Or do you think that R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA did not increase in the region?

    I doubt there was only one specific branch of R1a in the population that thrived and this population might well have included other yDNA groups, but autosomal analysis and evidence from apparent brother populations like Sintashta would suggest it was predominantly Z93 and Northern Ukraine in origin. Is there evidence to suggest this was not the case?
    Can you find this successful branch of R1a-snp from Ukraine or Sintashta-Arkaim, in modern day Iranian language from Ossetian region?

    Or Jaszjsag project?
    Last edited by Silesian; 04-03-19 at 00:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Was it a "decline" or simply a single highly male-biased "wave" that petered out, autosomally speaking, after, say, a dozen or so generations? With their Y-DNA lineages, language, and culture persisting much longer? They were, themselves, already admixed, and washed over and mixed/mated with other, already highly admixed, populations that preceded them.
    I'll accept it being called a peter-out, rather than a decline. Whether they, their ancestors or a neighbouring people were the substantial influencers of language and culture is still an open question in my view. The genetics is a different matter - it appears that not only the Yamnayan yDNA lineages, but also their typical autosomal mixes, declined or petered out in the Steppe to be replaced predominantly with R1a lineages, autosomal mixes typical of R1a populations and some additional Northern and Siberian DNA.

    I see Yamnayan (autosomal) DNA not as dying out per se, but certainly as shrivelling on the Steppe, and as partly regenerating in other regions like the Southern Caucasus and the Eastern Baltic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Can you find this successful branch of R1a-snp from Ukraine or Sintashta-Arkaim, in modern day Iranian language from Ossetian region?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    Or Jaszjsag project?
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    I still don't know which part you disagree with and why - Do you think that Yamnayan DNA continued to thrive/predominate in the Steppe? (If so, what are its thriving yDNA and aDNA branches, and where is it located?) Do you alternatively think the Steppe was evacuated after Yamnaya? Or do you think that R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA did not increase in the region?

    I'm also not sure what your question is getting at - relating the question of Yamnayan decline to the modern day, to the Iranian language and to Ossetia. If you could explain, it might help me understand.

    This thread all stems from analysis of ancient Steppe samples, which show (i) a movement away from R1b finds and towards R1a finds, and (ii) a major movement away from Yamnayan autosomal mixes and towards autosomal mixes typical of predominantly R1a-M417 populations.

    I'm not saying these changes have remained the same until the current day. Indeed, Z93 has developed substantially since then, and I estimate that its modern lineages coalesce to the Western Caspian and spread out massively - mainly southwards and eastwards - from there. I have not analysed where its populations' autosomal DNA most likely spread since then, nor am I sure we have sufficient data to do so with any confidence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I'll accept it being called a peter-out, rather than a decline. Whether they, their ancestors or a neighbouring people were the substantial influencers of language and culture is still an open question in my view. The genetics is a different matter - it appears that not only the Yamnayan yDNA lineages, but also their typical autosomal mixes, declined or petered out in the Steppe to be replaced predominantly with R1a lineages, autosomal mixes typical of R1a populations and some additional Northern and Siberian DNA.

    I see Yamnayan (autosomal) DNA not as dying out per se, but certainly as shrivelling on the Steppe, and as partly regenerating in other regions like the Southern Caucasus and the Eastern Baltic.
    When the Yamnaya moved out, following the 4.2 ka "cold snap", others moved in. So?

    Yamnaya weren't exclusively R1b, if that was their "core" haplogroup, but were, on the steppes, already admixed with R1a and other haplogroups. R1b does "pile up" in western Europe, so can't be said to have been superseded by later "paternities". The eastern migrations are more complicated, with R1a-dominant Indo-Iranians figuring in the mix. I'd argue that "founder effects" are more likely in central Asia than in western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    When the Yamnaya moved out, following the 4.2 ka "cold snap", others moved in. So?
    The indications from autosomal data is that this is not what happened. Firstly, Yamnayan populations mixed with others who had moved into their homeland some time before the cold snap, then they became the minority, then they were replaced by entirely different populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Yamnaya weren't exclusively R1b, if that was their "core" haplogroup, but were, on the steppes, already admixed with R1a and other haplogroups.
    Yes, but I am looking at the typical Yamnayan autosomal mix that links Yamnayan populations in Central Russia, Southern Russia, Ukraine and the Balkans and some Corded Ware populations in the North East. Regardless of yDNA, this autosomal mix ceases to fit subsequent populations to any substantial degree, apart from in the Eastern Baltic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    R1b does "pile up" in western Europe, so can't be said to have been superseded by later "paternities".
    I've avoided returning to the subject of western R1b, which I believe predominantly pre-dates what is generally understood as Yamnaya. Instead, I am referring solely to the East, where it appears that Yamnayan DNA withered.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    The eastern migrations are more complicated, with R1a-dominant Indo-Iranians figuring in the mix.
    I'm not sure I would go with the term Indo-Iranians, which could mislead people into thinking that the underlying population originated in India and Iran, when it had components from both Eastern Europe and Siberia, and also had an early presence in Anatolia and the Middle East.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    I'd argue that "founder effects" are more likely in central Asia than in western Europe.
    I'm not looking at founder effects, just referencing Silesian's chart, which shows two branches of Z2109 in "Europa" and only one in "Yamnaya".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I still don't know which part you disagree with and why - Do you think that Yamnayan DNA continued to thrive/predominate in the Steppe? (If so, what are its thriving yDNA and aDNA branches, and where is it located?) Do you alternatively think the Steppe was evacuated after Yamnaya? Or do you think that R1a lineages and Corded Ware-like autosomal DNA did not increase in the region?

    I'm also not sure what your question is getting at - relating the question of Yamnayan decline to the modern day, to the Iranian language and to Ossetia. If you could explain, it might help me understand.

    This thread all stems from analysis of ancient Steppe samples, which show (i) a movement away from R1b finds and towards R1a finds, and (ii) a major movement away from Yamnayan autosomal mixes and towards autosomal mixes typical of predominantly R1a-M417 populations.

    I'm not saying these changes have remained the same until the current day. Indeed, Z93 has developed substantially since then, and I estimate that its modern lineages coalesce to the Western Caspian and spread out massively - mainly southwards and eastwards - from there. I have not analysed where its populations' autosomal DNA most likely spread since then, nor am I sure we have sufficient data to do so with any confidence.



    Do you know the distance between modern day Burzyan Bashkirs who's R1b-Z2103>KMS67 marker can be found 5000YBP+/-in the exact same location; and the fortified settlements of Arkaim-Sintashta culture?
    Do you think the majority of male settlers in Arkaim-Sintashta culture belonged to R1a? If so, how do you explain the higher percentage of Yamnaya descendant's in the region [in above sample 33%R1b-Yamnaya derived versus 31%R1a]?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Do you know the distance between modern day Burzyan Bashkirs who's R1b-Z2103>KMS67 marker can be found 5000YBP+/-in the exact same location; and the fortified settlements of Arkaim-Sintashta culture?
    Do you think the majority of male settlers in Arkaim-Sintashta culture belonged to R1a? If so, how do you explain the higher percentage of Yamnaya descendant's in the region [in above sample 33%R1b-Yamnaya derived versus 31%R1a]?
    I don't see how these questions answer any of the questions I asked you.
    Where is the evidence that modern day Baskirs are KMS67 (I only know of one) and that the 5,000 BP sample was KMS67?
    The Sintashta samples I've seen have all been R1a, and have no Yamnaya autosomal component, almost entirely matching R1a samples to the West.
    I have seen no data to enable a firm assessment of whether these R1b Bashkirs of unidentified subclades are Yamnaya-derived. All I can say is that modern Bashkirs look only about 7 per cent Yamnayan autosomally, so I would presume that at unidentified points between 3,000 BC and now R1b male lineages have thrived relative to the overall populations from which they descended.

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