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Thread: Bronze Age Balkan DNA

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
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    Last edited by Davidtab; 08-03-19 at 08:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    I was thinking and it is possible that this sample could belong to an ethnic Celtic, from Balkans.
    If more samples with similar clustering are found in different places from Balkans, only then is possible to say that the Thracians from those times were clustering closer to the North Italians and people from Iberia.
    WHat special links with Celts based on this? Please, explain

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Agree on most of your points. According to ancient Greek mythology, Illyrians, Thracians and Celts were related.

    Alp - Alb roots might be related. Depending on geographical location the root might stand for white, while in others it means mountains.
    In Italian Alba means dusk. The side the Sun Rises.
    Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

    The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today. Thucydides shows that the Epirotes were Illyrians, and they were speaking two different dialects. Strabo (7, 7) also shows that they lived south of river Shkumb and Illyrians to the north. The Romans used to make a clear distinction between Illyrians proprie dicti (proper) and Illyrians in general. In their understanding, Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias.


    .
    .
    I have previous supplied ( last 2 months ) another recent paper that oscans and umbrians ( sabellic and sabines ) migrated from upper danube valley into Italy
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Not a very good fit, but that's the best I arrived at with what nMonte offered (and my patience allowed!) within an appropriate time frame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Until the middle of the second millennium BC, the Proto-Italo-Celto-Illyro-Thraco-Dacian was a single language. After that some phonological change appeared in different dialects of this proto-language. Namely in the dialect from the middle of this group from which evolved the Continental Celtic and the Oscan and Umbrian, the labiovelar (kʷ, gʷ) turned into bi-labials (p, b). The innovations affects all these languages (one should remember that the forefathers of Oscans and Umbrians migrated from the upper Danube valley into the Italian peninsula)

    The Epirotes of ancient times lived where Albanians live today. Thucydides shows that the Epirotes were Illyrians, and they were speaking two different dialects. Strabo (7, 7) also shows that they lived south of river Shkumb and Illyrians to the north. The Romans used to make a clear distinction between Illyrians proprie dicti (proper) and Illyrians in general. In their understanding, Epirots were not Illyrians proper. Illyrians proper were those from Illyria, Dalmatia, and the two Pannonias.


    .
    .
    I have previous supplied ( last 2 months ) another recent paper that oscans and umbrians ( sabellic and sabines ) migrated from upper danube valley into Italy
    These languages have surely been close at first but scholars seem saying that BI S-Illyrian only is close to Getian (Dacian) and Thracian, and that Dalmatian and Pannonian were different, more akin to centum Italics. And I think that a part of the old western IEans including proto-Italics and proto-Celtics more or less close to Lusitanian, Ligurian and other unkown or badly known dialects had broken off from the ancient common branch of the central Danube regions. My opinion is that only the ones kept closer to Hungary have later undergone the labialisation, by a phenomenon of wave maybe linked to new elites integrated in the ancient groups in the Urnfields/Hallstatt meanwhile (?). I don't believe in distinct phenomenons here, rather in a propagation during a long enough time with slight demic exchanges and contacts kept between neighbouring pops despite the cores of the tongues families were already well separated. Even bilinguism of some parts of the pops cannot be completely excluded. Surely this kind of phonologic "waves" were more possible in time whe the languages families of same far origin were still close enough, compared to present. A substratum explanation seems less evident here, but I keep in mind the late propagation of the uvular devibrated 'R', BI in Germany and in France, withtout mentioning other languages : substrata here? snobism? natural convergence?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    In this tool: http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

    I3313 Bronze Age Dalmatia: Abscisse (x-axis): 338 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 271 pixel
    I5769 Iron Age Bulgaria: Abscisse (x-axis): 446 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 393 pixel

    So there was a west-east cline already in Pre-Slavic Balkans:

    My sample plots slightly northeast of the ancient Bulgaria sample. Is that one Thracian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    WHat special links with Celts based on this? Please, explain
    Well, it is known that Celts came from Asia to Europe.
    It is also known that Hallstatt was a location where Celts were dwelling in the Bronze Age and I think that in 1100 AD, Celts were present in Hallstatt.
    So I supposed that Celts came from Asia and passed through Balkans and South Romania and from there, they moved North, after which they reached Hallstatt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Well, it is known that Celts came from Asia to Europe.
    It is also known that Hallstatt was a location where Celts were dwelling in the Bronze Age and I think that in 1100 AD, Celts were present in Hallstatt.
    So I supposed that Celts came from Asia and passed through Balkans and South Romania and from there, they moved North, after which they reached Hallstatt.
    What are you basing this on? The Celts didn't come from Asian, they originate in Europe. Pre-Celtic was certainly spoken somewhere north of the Alps and possibly shows a connection to the Unetice, in turn Proto-Celtic is linked to the Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures. They clearly originate around central Europe and not Asia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    My sample plots slightly northeast of the ancient Bulgaria sample. Is that one Thracian?
    Very likely that it was a Thracian. Going by the area where this sample was found, it's possible that it was part of the Moesi tribe of Thracians.

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    Another sample from Balkans, from Iron Age, clusters close and more "South" of Italians from Tuscany.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...642#post569642
    So this sample was clearly a ThracoCelt.
    See that it has clearly more North Atlantic admixture, than the sample from Lyaskovets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mihaitzateo View Post
    Another sample from Balkans, from Iron Age, clusters close and more "South" of Italians from Tuscany.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...642#post569642
    So this sample was clearly a ThracoCelt.
    See that it has clearly more North Atlantic admixture, than the sample from Lyaskovets.
    I don't know where you are getting this "Thraco-Celt" origin from. During this time period the Proto-Celts were still somewhere around central Europe in the Hallstatt culture. There isn't any evidence to suggest that the sample was partly Celtic or of Celtic origin. The Iron Age and Bronze Age are two separate periods, you shouldn't compare a Bronze Age sample with an Iron Age one. Iron Age samples should have more Neolithic admix going by how they were already mixed at that point, whilst this isn't necessarily the case for the Bronze Age. You should look at how the Bronze Age Bulgarian sample was nearly indistinguishable from Srubnaya samples, far more northern steppe shifted than this Bronze Age Croatian sample.

    This Bronze Age Croatian sample is more like the BA Hungarian samples but with more of a SE shift.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Very likely that it was a Thracian. Going by the area where this sample was found, it's possible that it was part of the Moesi tribe of Thracians.
    I doubt it was a Thracian, or at least not a relatively pure Thracian. Thracians are clearly mostly Steppe - they're basically described in exactly the same way (down to appearances such as being very red haired) as Scythians. Maybe there was a Helot-style system going on (similarly to Thracians and Scythians, Spartans were described in the same way but to a lesser extent - they were seen as more civilised, and the descriptions of red hair aren't nearly as prevalent (I'm taking both of those to mean they were less Steppe-admixed, a big assumption but I bet it's true), though still common in the grand scheme of things). Also with the Scythian case weren't there some mostly Med. types amongst them?

    I2163 is a likely example of a Srubnaya departure to the Balkans that can be associated with the ancestors of Thracians, so this is quite different. If it were the case that "pure" Thracians like I2163 (he's too old for that but just go with it) mixed so heavily so as to gain a mostly Med genetic signature, there would have to be heavy selection for red-haired genes to explain the red-headedness mentioned in antiquity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I doubt it was a Thracian, or at least not a relatively pure Thracian. Thracians are clearly mostly Steppe - they're basically described in exactly the same way (down to appearances such as being very red haired) as Scythians. Maybe there was a Helot-style system going on (similarly to Thracians and Scythians, Spartans were described in the same way but to a lesser extent - they were seen as more civilised, and the descriptions of red hair aren't nearly as prevalent (I'm taking both of those to mean they were less Steppe-admixed, a big assumption but I bet it's true), though still common in the grand scheme of things). Also with the Scythian case weren't there some mostly Med. types amongst them?

    I2163 is a likely example of a Srubnaya departure to the Balkans that can be associated with the ancestors of Thracians, so this is quite different. If it were the case that "pure" Thracians like I2163 (he's too old for that but just go with it) mixed so heavily so as to gain a mostly Med genetic signature, there would have to be heavy selection for red-haired genes to explain the red-headedness mentioned in antiquity.
    There are a bunch of depictions of Thracians. Few redheads. Maybe the Ostrusha woman, but her hair looks more auburn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I doubt it was a Thracian, or at least not a relatively pure Thracian. Thracians are clearly mostly Steppe - they're basically described in exactly the same way (down to appearances such as being very red haired) as Scythians. Maybe there was a Helot-style system going on (similarly to Thracians and Scythians, Spartans were described in the same way but to a lesser extent - they were seen as more civilised, and the descriptions of red hair aren't nearly as prevalent (I'm taking both of those to mean they were less Steppe-admixed, a big assumption but I bet it's true), though still common in the grand scheme of things). Also with the Scythian case weren't there some mostly Med. types amongst them?

    I2163 is a likely example of a Srubnaya departure to the Balkans that can be associated with the ancestors of Thracians, so this is quite different. If it were the case that "pure" Thracians like I2163 (he's too old for that but just go with it) mixed so heavily so as to gain a mostly Med genetic signature, there would have to be heavy selection for red-haired genes to explain the red-headedness mentioned in antiquity.
    During the 6-5th centuries BC the area where this sample was from, and the vast majority of Bulgaria for that matter, was inhabited by Thracians. There wasn't any other group in that area. This sample obviously wasn't a pure Thracian or a Proto-Thracian speaker, as is suggested by it's genetics which are vastly different from the Bronze Age Bulgarian one which is more likely to have been representative for Proto-Thracians. This sample, like probably all Palaeo-Balkan groups at this point, was a mix of the Bronze Age invaders and the older(probably Sardinian-like) population. Despite it being radically different from Proto-Thracians, it was still likely a Thracian as it probably spoke Thracian.

    There was also another Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad(found in the Mezek tombs) that showed this southern shift(Sardinian-like), it is 100% clear that it was a Thracian. It turned out to be E-Z1919(maybe V13). However, another Thracian sample was found in a tumulus in southeastern Bulgaria but this one turned out to have been more Steppe shifted. It may have been R1b-Z2103.

    As for the red hair among Thracians, I don't think ancient descriptions should be taken too seriously. They certainly didn't have a majority red haired population in my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    During the 6-5th centuries BC the area where this sample was from, and the vast majority of Bulgaria for that matter, was inhabited by Thracians. There wasn't any other group in that area. This sample obviously wasn't a pure Thracian or a Proto-Thracian speaker, as is suggested by it's genetics which are vastly different from the Bronze Age Bulgarian one which is more likely to have been representative for Proto-Thracians. This sample, like probably all Palaeo-Balkan groups at this point, was a mix of the Bronze Age invaders and the older(probably Sardinian-like) population. Despite it being radically different from Proto-Thracians, it was still likely a Thracian as it probably spoke Thracian.

    There was also another Iron Age Thracian sample from Svilengrad(found in the Mezek tombs) that showed this southern shift(Sardinian-like), it is 100% clear that it was a Thracian. It turned out to be E-Z1919(maybe V13). However, another Thracian sample was found in a tumulus in southeastern Bulgaria but this one turned out to have been more Steppe shifted. It may have been R1b-Z2103.

    As for the red hair among Thracians, I don't think ancient descriptions should be taken too seriously. They certainly didn't have a majority red haired population in my opinion.
    Well not majority but unless all Greeks were colourblind or just plain stupid the point has to be accepted. It would be like saying the Irish are red-haired, not like 90% of them having red hair

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    Ok

    By what I know
    Red and Blond is something that can be detected,

    Red hair also gives a colour in skin is after a gene, so it has a mark
    Blond also has a shade in skin pigmentation and is after a gene, so it has a mark

    the only we can not detected is the Brown and all the shades of brown from brown/blond to brown/red to dark brown.
    cause brown mainly has not a typical gene, so no detected mark,

    plz If I am worng correct me,
    but I think that is the way it has,
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    /h
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Well not majority but unless all Greeks were colourblind or just plain stupid the point has to be accepted. It would be like saying the Irish are red-haired, not like 90% of them having red hair
    I understand what you mean. But I still think that the descriptions shouldn't be taken too literally, it's possible that lighter brown hair could've been mistaken for red. They could be exaggerations, such as how the Slavs were claimed to have been all red haired when in fact Slavs have lower frequencies of red hair. Anthropologists iirc believed that Thracians looked almost exactly like Greeks. Anyhow, the point of my post was to show that despite being more SE shifted than her Bronze Age ancestors, the Iron Age sample from Lyaskovets was still most certainly a Thracian.

    Pigmentation of ancient Bulgarian samples:
    . Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2509) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
    . Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2520) - Dark brown hair, blue eyes
    . Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2510) - Light skin, dark brown hair, brown eyes
    . Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2176) - Dark brown hair, brown eyes
    . Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2175) - Black hair, blue eyes
    . Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2165) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
    . Mid-late Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2163) - Light skin, blond hair, blue eyes
    . Iron Age Bulgaria(I5769) - Light skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/

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    Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

    I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

    It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

    While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.

    Edit:

    Well actually Gash is right that West Balkan samples were also similar to Albanians.
    Last edited by Tomenable; 17-03-19 at 02:56.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

    I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

    It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

    While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.

    Nope.

    The Eastern Balkan samples weren't close to Albanians , except for that Iron Age due to high Neolithic, and even Albanians aren't identical , Albanians are as North as North Italians and as South as Sardinians too . The sample in the OP is still closer to Albanians even than that Iron Age Bulgaria , on k36 it has a similarity with Albania of 77 and it gets Albanian and Kosovar on the other calculators. Those other samples from East Balkans were much further away, plotting with Austrians and North East Euros and that Iron Age Southern shifted sample wasn't as close either.

    The Bronze Age Dalmatian in the OP is the closest to Albanians followed by that J2b2 and the Iron Age in Bulgaria. The J2b2 is caring the same YDna as Albanians, shows there has been a genetic continuity in the Western Balkans since like the Bronze Age, atleast by Ydna. All those 3 late bronze age samples in Croatia are caring typical Albanian markers. Even the word Dalmatian was explained in the Albanian language


    Those Bronze Age Dalmatians were also close to Bulgarians and Macedonians closer than they were to Serbs or Croats or Bosniaks, shows the Thracians and Ilyrians were genetically similar people.

    All these samples are just prehistoric samples anyway but those samples found in Dalmatia are the closest thing to Albanians and also closer to Bulgarians and Macedonians than to Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks , many Albanians are skmilar to North Italians.




    There was also a late bronze age sample from Montenegro that was plotting close to Albanians and Bulgarians , even closer than this.


    for a guy who is into genetics you certainly dont seem to know much or even have an observation.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The sample in the OP has a high similarity with Albania on k36, actually highest in the Balkans



    K15 and K13 dont use Albanian samples , it gets Albanian and Kosovar on other calcs, if you look at the previous page , it just depends on what Albanian samples, same way it depends on what Bulgarians or Macedonians


    Italian-North 3.092 Italian_North 5.353 Kosovar 6


    The sample in Bulgaria had less genetic similarity with Albanians or even Bulgarians or Macedonians , it only got Albania at 67






    It is still closer to Albanians than to other Balkan people , but it doesnt get close Albanian on calcs like that other sample or even similarity ... and those populations cannot be modeled the way you claim


    A lot of this also depends on what samples you use for these populations like Albanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians

    the sample from Dalmatia in OP is still closer to certain Albanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians

    Italian_North 2.052Tuscan 5.73Albanian 6.214Bulgarian 6.865


    A lot of this closeness is also just genetic similarity ,


    I cannot see how Eastern Balkan samples were closer , except for the Iron Age in Bulgaria and it still isnt as close as that Dalmatian as you can see.

    And the Bulgarian being close is genetic similarity rather than ancestry considering Albanians are west Balkanites , same way Macedonians and Bulgarians are Eastern yet closer to the Dalmatian .

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    Interesting how you magically reached to the conclusion that Eastern Balkan samples were closer when you clearly see that those Western Balkan samples are closer and they also carry typical Albanian markers , Albanians are also nothing like South Italians except for some really southern shifted ones.


    That sample in Bulgaria isnt even that much closer to Greeks by the looks of it than Greeks are to that Bronze Age sample in the OP. And any closeness would just be Neolithic like ancestry

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.
    He isn't right at all. Those Western Balkan samples are still closer despite where they plot. And they even plot closer to certain North Albanians than that other sample. They are just more Western shifted. Look at the evidence I posted , especially the sample in the OP, despite where it plots , it is still closer as you can see , it has a higher similarity . What exactly is he right about ? The sample in Bulgaria was also more West than present day inhabitants and way more South than most Albanians. Plotting means literally nothing , even by plotting , those samples in Dalmatia are closer to many Northern Albanians, Bulgarians etc than that sample in Bulgaria. As it being more West than Albanians changes that when that other sample in Bulgaria is way more South than most.

    You seem to emphasis a lot on West , and plotting.

    A lot of Albanians are West shifted but not as West shifted as that sample. A lot of Albanians are like North Italians / Tuscans , only East and not like South Italians , only some are. The other Dalmatian J2b2 carries also a typical Albanian marker.


    Other Eastern Balkan samples were plotting with Austrians and North East Euros, the Iron Age sample Bulgaria is the only one that is like this and it still isnt closer than those Bronze Age samples in Dalmatia, it is only closer to some really southern shifted Balkanites ... Northern Albanians / Kosovars arent like South Italians. Those samples in Dalmatia are closer despite they are more West because that Bulgarian is more South.

    Based on one single sample from Bulgaria this guy reaches to the conclusion that they were closer while ignoring those other Iron Age samples from Bulgaria found that were very different

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    Because the samples from Dalmatia are more West doesn't make them less close when that sample from Bulgaria was more South ... Its just a Neolithic like sample , that Ev13 in Croatia would probably plot something similar , which shows you it has nothing to do with West or East nor can the origin of people be assigned based on these samples alone , especially when all these samples are very different from each other depending on the time frame despite coming from same area . There is literally nothing that suggests these samples are historical Ilyrians or Thracians but more like Proto. There is a reason why most of these samples arent plotting with modern Balkanites.

    That sample found in Bulgaria wasnt closer to North Albanians, Bulgarians or Macedonians , the Dalmatian in the OP is closer .... the one from Bulgaria was way more South .

    the way he also models modern Balkan populations is totally wrong. This dude and many people on other forums have no idea about Albanian or Balkan genetics and lump us all together, North Albanians are nothing like South Italians, we are closer to North Italians and Tuscans like those samples from Dalmatia , only difference is that they are more west and a bit more north but there are Albanians who are as North as that sample.

    Just look at its k36 , the sample from Dalmatia has a higher similarity with Albania , on calcs it gets Albanian and Kosovar as top 3 countries / ethnicites , it is closer to many North Albanians / Kosovars than that sample found in Bulgaria which is way more Southern shifted which is literally why the Dalmatian is getting Albania as closer , weather West or Not .... there was a sample from Late Bronze Age Montenegro that was even closer , plotting with Bulgarians / North Albanians. All Western Balkan samples also carry typical Albanian markers , especially J2b2 L283. The J2b2 was less close but still carries a typical marker and the Bulgarian wasnt much closer.


    You're ignoring genetic similarity in favor of West shifted plotting ... what does it even matter I wonder when that sample in Bulgaria is more South shifted than most Balkanites , It still doesnt change that sample from Dalmatia in OP is closer , and even by plotting it is closer to many North Albanians / Kosovars and Bulgarians , it is just more Western and a bit more North

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

    I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

    It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

    While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.
    Not really accurate since the western Balkan samples are Bronze Age and the eastern Balkan samples you are talking about are Iron Age. We should compare samples from the same time frame. The Bronze Age Dalmatian samples are far closer to Albanians than the Bronze Age Bulgarian samples. The Bronze Age Bulgarian guy was practically indistinguishable from Srubnaya individuals.

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