Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 83

Thread: Bronze Age Balkan DNA

  1. #51
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-17
    Posts
    113
    Points
    1,689
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,689, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 29.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    Let me exlplain myself better to show you that I am right and you're both wrong. As this guy is extremely biased obviously based on his conclusion. It is mind boggling how people manipulative genetic evidence to suit their own agenda.

    1. The bronze age sample in Dalmatia might of been more Western shifted than Albanians but that sample from Bulgaria is more Southern shifted , this doesnt make the sample from Bulgaria closer , if you look at the K36 similarity, the Bronze Age sample in Dalmatia in the OP has a higher similarity with Albania at 77 while the one in Bulgaria gets 66. Of course this depends on what Albanians. North Albanians / Kosovars are like North Italians / Tuscans while some Southern Albanians are more south like that sample , this doesnt mean they derive their ancestry from such a sample , same way Greeks or South Italians literally have nothing to do with some sample from Bulgaria, its just shared Neolithic ancestry.

    2. The Bronze Age sample in Dalmatia gets Kosovar and Albanian as top 3 ethnicties in many calculators that uses Albanian samples, while the sample from Bulgaria doesnt get it as close. Once again making the sample from Dalmatia closer to Albanians, atleast Gheg Albanians.

    3. The other sample from Dalmatia which is found in the same time frame carried a typical North Albanian marker , J2b2 L283. Autosomally it wasnt as close as the first one, but still not much less close than the one from Bulgaria. Once again closer to Albanians. Pretty much all these Late Bronze Age samples in West Balkans are closer to North Albanians, although not 100% identical and carry typical Albanian markers, J2b2 l23 , R1b - z2103

    This all means the sample from Bulgaria isn't closer to Albanians , and if it is its some Southern Albanians who are Sicilian like rather than North Albanians. You can't base peoples origin on such a sample either.

    But every evidence points that Albanians are Ilyrians that lived in the Western Balkans for thousands of years. That sample in Bulgaria isn't a Thracian btw. Its just a Neolithic sample. Thracians were probably genetically similar people to Ilyrians. You can see this also by the fact that Macedonians and Bulgarians were also close to those West Balkan Bronze Age samples. There have been actual Thracian samples found and they plotted with Tuscans. They were closer to Albanians but its most likely due to Thracians and Ilyrians being autosomally similar.

    There was also a Late Bronze Age sample found in Montenegro that plotted with Bulgarians, basically where a lot of North Albanians also plot.

    Late Bronze Age Balkan samples from West Balkans are basically closer to Albanians than any other samples found in the Balkans and carry typical Albanian markers.


    East Balkan samples weren't closer ... Other samples found in East Balkan were like Austrians and North East Europeans , that Iron Age was the most Souhthern one and the most closest one but still not any closer than Late Bronze Age West Balkan samples.


    There is literally nothing right about what this guy is saying and the way he is modelling modern Balkan populations based on these samples is also totally wrong. The way he reaches to conclusions is absolutely nonsense. He is literally trying to say that Ancient East Balkanites were like us while West Balkanites werent which is wrong and he bases this off one sample which isnt even closer .... All these ancient Balkan samples are acrually very different from eachother depending on the time frame despite they are found in same areas , which makes what this guy says wrong again.

    Even if there was one sample that was closer doesnt mean we derive our ancestry from such a sample but maybe also a population that was genetically similar.

    The J2b2 L283 in Albanians is of West Balkan origin and strengthen an Ilyrian origin, even the word Dalmatia has been explained in the Albanian language

    Its too bad dudes like this use this to manipulate things into their own agenda. He's just lying anyway.

  2. #52
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,846
    Points
    310,307
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,307, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.
    Absolutely.

    The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

    The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

    You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

    The Slavs are from a much later period.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #53
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-17
    Posts
    113
    Points
    1,689
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,689, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 29.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Not really accurate since the western Balkan samples are Bronze Age and the eastern Balkan samples you are talking about are Iron Age. We should compare samples from the same time frame. The Bronze Age Dalmatian samples are far closer to Albanians than the Bronze Age Bulgarian samples. The Bronze Age Bulgarian guy was practically indistinguishable from Srubnaya individuals.
    Very good point. Shows how biased this dude is. Uses one sample to reach to a conclusion. Those bronze age samples in Dalmatia were still closer to Albos than that Iron Age and carried typical Albanian markers even if they werent 100 % identical ... obviously Albanian J2b2 l283 and R1b derive from a Western Balkan source, meaning Ilyrian.

    No matter much genetic evidence people like this will manipulate it to suit their agenda , now hes fed another generation of Serbian nationalists and Bosniensis nutcases. I am out of these forums. Let these losers have it.

    Albanians atleast , North Albanians are nothing like South Italians ... I get mostly Tuscan and North Italian on these calcs. Some more Southern Albos are South Italian like, we cant all be lumped the same.


    That sample from Bulgaria isn't really an Iron Age btw ... atleast Iron Age doesnt seem to be a specific time frame , it dates back much earlier than other Iron Age samples. To me it almost seems Neolithic.

    East Balkan samples also carried markers that arent even found in Albanians

  4. #54
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-17
    Posts
    113
    Points
    1,689
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,689, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 29.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Absolutely.

    The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

    The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

    You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

    The Slavs are from a much later period.
    I'm not sure what you mean but the data isn't clear at all and is showing you what I'm telling you but whatever

    The sample found in Bulgaria isn't closer to Albanians , it's more Southern than most Albanians while the sample found in Dalmatia is more Western. I am not disputing that it is more western but this doesn't make the sample from Bulgaria closer or East Balkan samples closer. The data shows the sample from Dalmatia is still closer to Albanians , Bulgarians and Macedonians and they also carried typical Albanian markers in those areas. All Bronze Age samples found in West Balkans carried typical Albanian markers. J2b2 L283 especially.

    The samples from Dalmatia are closer this is why it has a higher similarity on K36 compared to the one from Bulgaria , it is also getting Kosovar and Albanian on calculators much closer than that sample from Bulgaria so not sure what you mean that the data is clear .... The sample from Bulgaria is only closer to some really Southern shifted Albanians and some Greeks and South Italians.

    Also most East Balkan samples were nothing like Albanians either , Bronze Age samples found in Bulgaria were plotting with Austrians and North East Europeans. Totally contradicts what this guy is saying that East Balkan samples were closer. He is just using that Iron Age to reach to such a conclusion.

    While the Bronze Age samples in west Balkans that have been found are closer to Albanians , Bulgarians, Macedonians etc than the Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans , they also carried typical Albanian markers like J2b2 L283 , R1bz2103 as I said.

    You can just take a look at the calculator results I posted to see that I am right ,

    There was another Late Bronze Age sample found in Montenegro that was also closer to Albanians, Bulgarians etc and even much closer than this which was called Jaz1



    The plotting of Albanians depends a lot, there are Albanians that plot where those Bulgarians plot .... but you can see this Bronze Age Montenigrin is also closer than that Iron Age found in East Balkans , it also closer than the Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans ... Its closer to Greeks even ... its also EASTERN SHIFTED as you can see and not Western

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erland_Croatia


    Pretty much all Bronze Age samples found in West Balkans are closer to Albanians , Greeks , Bulgarians , Macedonians than Bonze Age samples found in East Balkans ....

    I cannot see how ancient East Balkanites were closer to us , he just used one Iron Age sample from Bulgaria to compare to West Balkan samples yet ignores those other Bronze Age samples in East Balkans that werent as close .... and even this Iron Age isnt close either ... you cant just lump all people of the Balkan together either ... Alao most of our ydna markers derive from Late bronze Age West balkan samples.


    The data is clear here and its saying what I am saying . Also Im not saying I think what Thracians were like . There were actual Thracian samples found that plotted with Tuscans and not Neolithic or Bronze Age or Iron Age. They were later deleted.


    This guy reaches to conclusion claiming Ancient East Balkan people were closer to us than West Balkan based on one Iron Age sample when the data shows something totally different when you compare all samples together and also Ydna markers its obvious West Balkan samples are closer... he also used samples to compare that were at different time frames such as Iron Age vs Bronze Age which is wrong,

  5. #55
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-17
    Posts
    113
    Points
    1,689
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,689, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 29.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    If you don't believe that the OP is biased and most of you then let me phrase it again before I take a hike as the data is pretty clear


    1. All Bronze Age samples found in the West Balkans were closer to Albanians than Bronze Age samples found in the East Balkans , these Late Bronze Age samples found in West Balkan even carried typical Albanian YDNA markers J2b2 L283 and R1b z0913 .... Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans were plotting with East Europeans and Austrians, they had I2a2 markers and R1a ... I2a2 is only found in South Albania at low levels .

    Late Bronze Age sample from Montenegro was pretty much plotting with Bulgarians. Where a lot of Albanians plot and isnt too far away and even closer than the Dalmatian.


    What this dude does is that he ignores this and uses the Iron Age from Bulgaria to conclude that Ancient East Balkan people were closer ... to compare, he uses samples from different time frames to reach to such a conclusion. It is rather hilarious how someone can be so biased.

    Instead of also using Bronze Age samples from East Balkans to compare to Bronze Age samples from West Balkans, he uses that one single Iron Age and even that one isnt really closer. Especially not when compared autosomally to that female Dalmatian or the one from Montenegro.


    To me the data is pretty clear.

    I am out and have fun.

  6. #56
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-01-17
    Posts
    191
    Points
    2,891
    Level
    15
    Points: 2,891, Level: 15
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 159
    Overall activity: 22.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J1-P58
    MtDNA haplogroup
    T1a1l

    Ethnic group
    Gheg Albanian-Kelmendi clan(Joined) but with supposed origin from Montenegro
    Country: United Kingdom



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Absolutely.

    The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

    The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

    You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

    The Slavs are from a much later period.
    Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

  7. #57
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,579
    Points
    65,324
    Level
    79
    Points: 65,324, Level: 79
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 1,126
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    1 members found this post helpful.
    One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

    This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about

  8. #58
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,846
    Points
    310,307
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,307, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.
    I know they've been tested. That was my point. They have nothing to do with Slavs.

    I have no idea why you think there's a contradiction between the two things you mention in the bolded phrase. Steppe people definitely admixed with the people they encountered in the Balkans. Look at the Mycenaeans. They've always been the pre-eminent example of an Indo-European steppe derived people, they spoke an Indo-European language, yet they carried only about 10-19% actual steppe ancestry.

    @Tomenable,

    Thanks for that. Perhaps you should post that on the Olalde thread. It supports Markod's idea that the Visigoths were a confederation of various groups picked up along the way, like the Huns, not a collection of Germanic tribes.

  9. #59
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    /h
    I understand what you mean. But I still think that the descriptions shouldn't be taken too literally, it's possible that lighter brown hair could've been mistaken for red. They could be exaggerations, such as how the Slavs were claimed to have been all red haired when in fact Slavs have lower frequencies of red hair. Anthropologists iirc believed that Thracians looked almost exactly like Greeks. Anyhow, the point of my post was to show that despite being more SE shifted than her Bronze Age ancestors, the Iron Age sample from Lyaskovets was still most certainly a Thracian.

    Pigmentation of ancient Bulgarian samples:
    . Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2509) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
    . Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2520) - Dark brown hair, blue eyes
    . Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2510) - Light skin, dark brown hair, brown eyes
    . Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2176) - Dark brown hair, brown eyes
    . Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2175) - Black hair, blue eyes
    . Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2165) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
    . Mid-late Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2163) - Light skin, blond hair, blue eyes
    . Iron Age Bulgaria(I5769) - Light skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...ern-europeans/
    How is it possible lighter brown hair would be mistaken for red? What about the various artistic depictions of the Thracians on top of what they wrote?

    Make up your mind from this below, though I will address the criticisms: firstly Dr. Cohen is, to be frank, being an "anti-Nazi" which is understandable but not evidence-based - we are obviously to expect to find people in that region genetically much more "Northern European" than any modern Bulgarian, so there's no reason why the same could not be true for pigmentation that practically by definition follows genotype. As regarding the claim that the Slavs, Scythians etc. were red-haired when Eastern Europeans aren't so much now, I'll refer you to Maciamo's analysis of Corded Ware genomes, which are more closely related to Western Europeans than Eastern Europeans (basically, Corded Ware has much higher Western European than Eastern European and also prefers Gedrosian rather than Caucasian, which is the case in the West too and mirrors the distribution of red hair in Europe).

    Finally, to all but the mentally blind, it's clear that red-hair is underrepresented by phenotypical calculators (I think blonde hair is also overrepresented) - as an example British Bell Beakers apparently have NO red hair, which is a dead giveaway. You can check this with modern populations as Genetiker tested them for hair colour etc. and it fits perfectly - phenotypical calculators give modern Brits far too much blonde hair and too little red hair.



    If I am to remain open-minded, the ONLY other possibility that could be considered realistic is a situation like Germanic tribes (e.g. Suebi) who would dye their hair red for battle. However that doesn't explain why e.g. so many Thracian personal names referred to red hair.

  10. #60
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

    This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about
    How do we know he's a Visigoth and not some sort of slave - what was his burial like and when was it dated to? I'd expect that person not to be an actual Visigoth but rather to be a slave or maybe a mercenary (especially given the Y DNA, any mixing would be female-mediated and the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")).

  11. #61
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.
    Huh, almost exactly (actually exactly exactly) like what I wrote about the hierarchies amongst Mycenaeans/ancient Greeks earlier. I hope it doesn't come as too much of a shock if we find that the Greeks - so far apparently only Y DNA J if you want a giveaway clue - were actually genetically diverse through separation of class. I'm just going by their word after all (that post I wrote as too long, basically Z2103 and minor J = upper class; J, minor Z2103 and E-V13 = middle class; E-V13 and minor J and Z2103 = lower class (freedmen + slaves). Pre-pelasgian farmer population E-V13 with some G2a, then Y DNA J Pelasgians invade and dominate over the natives, then Y DNA Z2103 Hellenics repeat this process. Introduction of most R1a and I2a with later Slavic invasions.)

  12. #62
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,435
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,435, Level: 10
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Greece



    Can assume that the Bronze Age Bulgaria sample with Y-DNA R-Z93 was a Proto-Thracian?

  13. #63
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    Can assume that the Bronze Age Bulgaria sample with Y-DNA R-Z93 was a Proto-Thracian?
    I do at least.

  14. #64
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,435
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,435, Level: 10
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I do at least.
    It is also suggested that he could be a Proto-Greek. He could also be an outlier in my opinion. R-Z93 is very rare in Balkans nowdays. What I think is that a minority of IE settlers in Balkans could be from Srubna culture and this could justify the R-Z93 sample. My haplogroup is a subclade of R-Z93 and I share common segments on gedmatch with this sample.

  15. #65
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    It is also suggested that he could be a Proto-Greek. He could also be an outlier in my opinion. R-Z93 is very rare in Balkans nowdays. What I think is that a minority of IE settlers in Balkans could be from Srubna culture and this could justify the R-Z93 sample. My haplogroup is a subclade of R-Z93 and I share common segments on gedmatch with this sample.
    Well it's likely to come from Srubnaya so it wouldn't be proto-Greek but instead (Cimmero-)Daco-Thracian. Proto-Greek more than likely comes from Catacomb, before satemisation innovations took place on the Steppe, so associated with Z2103. Armenian is the same, but they seem to have been influenced by this satemisation. I'd guess that would be because perhaps they left from Late Catacomb rather than somewhat earlier like the Greeks, or perhaps because of the much later Iranian influence. I'd guess the former to be correct, especially as it also explains why Armenian is only "partially" satemised (though I don't know the details of that).

  16. #66
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,435
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,435, Level: 10
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Well it's likely to come from Srubnaya so it wouldn't be proto-Greek but instead (Cimmero-)Daco-Thracian. Proto-Greek more than likely comes from Catacomb, before satemisation innovations took place on the Steppe, so associated with Z2103. Armenian is the same, but they seem to have been influenced by this satemisation. I'd guess that would be because perhaps they left from Late Catacomb rather than somewhat earlier like the Greeks, or perhaps because of the much later Iranian influence. I'd guess the former to be correct, especially as it also explains why Armenian is only "partially" satemised (though I don't know the details of that).
    So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

  17. #67
    Elite member Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation Second ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-09-14
    Posts
    4,579
    Points
    65,324
    Level
    79
    Points: 65,324, Level: 79
    Level completed: 30%, Points required for next Level: 1,126
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    W6

    Ethnic group
    Polish
    Country: Poland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")
    Maybe they kept to themselves in the same way as Americans keep to themselves and don't mix with e.g. Canadians (not sure if this is really the case, but you know what I mean - American is an identity but it is not one genetic cluster; you can imagine that some White Pride Americans keep to themselves despite not being a genetically homogeneous group: some White Nationalists are Russian, some British, some German, etc.).

    Something about the size of those tribes (apparently they were incorporating foreigners into their ranks):

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...ew=1up;seq=100

    Documentary:


  18. #68
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,846
    Points
    310,307
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,307, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.
    Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

    We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.

  19. #69
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.
    No I think Daco-Thracians at least at first were mostly R1a-Z93. I don't think they were influenced from Srubnaya, I think they came from Srubnaya.

  20. #70
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,846
    Points
    310,307
    Level
    100
    Points: 310,307, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    How do we know he's a Visigoth and not some sort of slave - what was his burial like and when was it dated to? I'd expect that person not to be an actual Visigoth but rather to be a slave or maybe a mercenary (especially given the Y DNA, any mixing would be female-mediated and the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")).
    Why don't you check the archaeology in the supplement and find out?

    Goodness. You remind me of Fire-Haired. He never would read anything either.

  21. #71
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

    We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.
    Instead of ad hominems you can at least give your arguments. It's obvious to anybody with half a brain, and that includes you as you're clearly intelligent, that R1b spread Hellenic languages to Greece. That R1b was also obviously Z2103, no other candidate exists. R1a is a possibility instead but R1a in Greece if I'm not mistaken is actually mostly Slavic for one thing, but also it doesn't make a difference as to the basic argument of hierarchies.

  22. #72
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,435
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,435, Level: 10
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

    We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.
    Yes I know that but I think it is quite possible to exist some R1b-Z2103 in Myceneans since they had some steppe admixture. what is your opinion about the Bulgaria R-Z93 sample? Do you think he could be a Proto-Thracian?

  23. #73
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,435
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,435, Level: 10
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    No I think Daco-Thracians at least at first were mostly R1a-Z93. I don't think they were influenced from Srubnaya, I think they came from Srubnaya.
    I think it is suggested they came from Multi-Cordoned ware culture.

  24. #74
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by xri34 View Post
    I think it is suggested they came from Multi-Cordoned ware culture.
    Interesting, that makes sense too. Perhaps that's associated with Daco-Thracians and Srubnaya proper the Cimmerians. In any case the Srubnaya link has to be strong. That actually makes a lot of sense, I can't see there being any better hypothesis.

  25. #75
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    26-09-18
    Posts
    96
    Points
    1,435
    Level
    10
    Points: 1,435, Level: 10
    Level completed: 43%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Interesting, that makes sense too. Perhaps that's associated with Daco-Thracians and Srubnaya proper the Cimmerians. In any case the Srubnaya link has to be strong. That actually makes a lot of sense, I can't see there being any better hypothesis.
    The Crimmerians interacted with Thracians during the Iron Age. They were at steppes untill 900 BC. What we know is that Multi-Cordoned ware culture had many interactions with Srubna culture before the IE settlers leave the steppes for Balkans. So some of the settlers could have origin from Srubna culture (R-Z93).

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •