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Thread: Bronze Age Balkan DNA

  1. #76
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    1. We know that Illyrians were in Epirus.

    2. We know that the name of Dodona, the cradle of the Greek religion is considered linguistically Illyrian rather than Greek.

    3. We know that the Dorians seem to have been influenced a lot by Illyrians, and possibly outdated, but Coon noted that the Dorian parts of Greece have more
    Dinaric traits. Albanians are the archetypal dinarics.

    4. We now know that even from the most bad faith conservative linguists like Joachim Matzinger who made media appearances that "Albanian was opposite of Illyrian", that Albanian is a language "close to Illyrian and Messapian". This is a multi-faceted concession that entails very big details. Firstly, it means he is admitting implicitly that Messapians and Illyrians spoke a language like Albanian, hence not a Celtic-like, Italic-like,
    or Germanic like language. He also didn't say Albanian is a language "close to Thracian" or "close to Dacian" which means Albanian is in the West Balkans. He also admits that the Albanian language can be used to decipher the few glosses and inscriptions we have from them. This is a big concession which has had no media coverage despite it being groundbreaking for european and world historiography. It is groundbreaking since now even if you want to argue Albanian doesn't descend from Illyrian, you are forced to concede that all the famous Illyrians like Constantine the Great (legalized Christianity), Justinian the Great, spoke a language close to Albanian. You have to concede that the Messapian civillization spoke a language close to Albanian. You have to concede that Pyrrhus was raised by people speaking a language close to Albanian. And this is significant.

    5. Since we know Messapians spoke a language like Albanian, it's not surprising that we see a lot more Ev13 in Apulia. It's also not surprising that we see J2b2-L283 there and up along the coast into the Po Valley. There needs to be more higher resolution tests of these Albanian/Italian connections so that it can be appropriately dated, but there seems to be no will for this yet.

    6. The J2b2-L283 found in a royal grave dated 3500 BC in Croatia in Mathieson Genomic History of Southeast Europe is high steppe relatively.

    7. J2 split into J2a and J2b some 27,700 years ago. The difference is bigger than R1a and R1b. Stop saying J2 for South East europe without qualifying J2a or J2b as its as useful as saying R1, means nothing and both were present here. Almost all European J2b members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago.

    8. Aspurg believes he has noted clades of EV13 and R1b that are possibly "Illyrian-Dorian".

    Quoting him on Ev13: "some clades under Z5018 seem to have migrated more to the West pre-second Illyrian wave in LBA/EIA, and they show tendencies of spreading with Illyrian groups. Namely L241 and Y145455. Same might go for some CTS9320 clades, especially under Z16988. You spoke few times of Illyrian-Dorian connection. I believe this connection existed and I have found some clear genetic traces of it, and one of those seems L241. I think there are going to be Ancient Greek L241 clades (already there are L241+ there but without deeper tests) and PH2180 is Illyrian, same as some L241*"

    Quoting him on R1b: "In a study about Y-DNA on Crete Lasithi Plateau had a high percentage of R1b, I got one of those haplotypes, and they are a clade of U152 that is distantly related (3000+ ybp) to their cousins in Herzegovina R-Y4354, of the Vlach Ugarak tribe. Vlach Zotovic clan has the same Y-DNA, and Zotovic is supposed to be derived from Albanian "Zot". Because this clade has no close relatives at all but has distant relatives in Greece, even Cyprus, it should be Illyrian/Dorian and this clade is another Illyrian-Dorian connection."

    9. A polish linguist found Albanian loanwords in the folk vocabulary of Spartan Poet Alcman's work (7th Century BC). This means proto-Albanians and the Spartans (Dorians) must have interacted. Since at least 7th Century BC. Orel also noted that Greek and Albanian share many isoglosses not shared by any other Indo European language, and that this points to intense contact between Proto-Greek and Proto-Albanian in antiquity.

    10. Plotting ancient sample on Gedmatch is valuable and important, but lets be weary that there isn't artefacts that skew it one way or the other. If the plot of these samples is correct, then it's interesting in that it suggests that the ancient Y-Dna lines that have remained consistent in Albanians since that time must have become autosomally skewed east by a lot of Slav women. It's not too feasible for me such a scenario, but if you guys want to insist that Slav women came to the balkans and mated with the males here so much then I won't protest too much.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  2. #77
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Country: Albania



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    1. We know that
    For Point 5. see the "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" where they found J2b2 and Ev13 in Apulia and up the coast into po valley.
    For Point 9. see "The earliest Albanian loanwords in Greek" by Krzysztof Witczak, published by the Institute of Modern Greek Studies, and Orel, "Concise Historical Grammar of Albanian"


    Source images for the points:

    Point 4
    :




    Point 3:



    Point 2:


  3. #78
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    Ethnic group
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    According to Aris Poulianous, probably the most important Greek anthropologist:
    - ".. Descent of Illyrio-Vlach tribe(s) until to Sfakia, Crete... "
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


  4. #79
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Its obvious Albanians derive their ancestry from samples found in Bronze Age West Balkans and not East Balkans. The Bronze Age samples in West Balkans carried typical Albanian Y-DNA markers also. That this isn't ticking for people such as the OP and some here is amazing.

    The sample found in Bulgaria isn't even a Bronze Age , its supposedly an Iron age. It is a totally different time frame. It is actually dated to be earlier than most of the Late Bronze Age samples despite an Iron Age. When you look at it's date and autosomal makeup, makes me think the sample is a Neolithic farmer. Its as South as Sardinians.

    Its like comparing apples and oranges. Because it is autosomally closer means basically nothing when its obvious we derive a large chunk of our ancestry from Bronze Age West Balkans including Y-DNA markers. At the end of the day, except maybe for the Bronze Age Montenigrin, none of these samples are 100% identical to modern Balkan people or even Albanians.

    But the Iron Age Bulgarian isn't autosomally closer even when compared to West Balkan Bronze Age samples. It is way too South shifted. And those samples from Dalmatia are way too North / West. Not that such a comparison would even matter when they are different time frames.


    Its amazing how the OP ignores all this and uses that one single Iron Age sample from Bulgaria , which isn't even close to us, to determine that Ancient East Balkan samples were closer. Most Albanians aren't like South Italians.

    When you take all samples together or just compare Bronze Age samples, you clearly see Ancient West Balkan samples are closer and even carry the same YDNA markers ... quite the opposite of what the OP is claiming.

  5. #80
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    IMHO, I3313 and I4331 from BA Croatia could well be Proto-Italic.
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    proly R1B

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

    This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about
    Hello Polish mate,

    Is there a thread with the DNA of that Visigoth on Eupedia?

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    The differentation has nothing to do with Slav women - try to take a look at the data at least. Present day inhabitants are shifted towards the Near East compared to those samples. The ancients here are between Iberians and North Italians (not close to Tuscans in the PCA). No group like that exists in the Balkans today.

  8. #83
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Bump this thread.

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