Bronze Age Balkan DNA

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.

Huh, almost exactly (actually exactly exactly) like what I wrote about the hierarchies amongst Mycenaeans/ancient Greeks earlier. I hope it doesn't come as too much of a shock if we find that the Greeks - so far apparently only Y DNA J if you want a giveaway clue - were actually genetically diverse through separation of class. I'm just going by their word after all (that post I wrote as too long, basically Z2103 and minor J = upper class; J, minor Z2103 and E-V13 = middle class; E-V13 and minor J and Z2103 = lower class (freedmen + slaves). Pre-pelasgian farmer population E-V13 with some G2a, then Y DNA J Pelasgians invade and dominate over the natives, then Y DNA Z2103 Hellenics repeat this process. Introduction of most R1a and I2a with later Slavic invasions.)

 

[xri34]

Can assume that the Bronze Age Bulgaria sample with Y-DNA R-Z93 was a Proto-Thracian?

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Can assume that the Bronze Age Bulgaria sample with Y-DNA R-Z93 was a Proto-Thracian?

I do at least.

 

[xri34]

I do at least.

It is also suggested that he could be a Proto-Greek. He could also be an outlier in my opinion. R-Z93 is very rare in Balkans nowdays. What I think is that a minority of IE settlers in Balkans could be from Srubna culture and this could justify the R-Z93 sample. My haplogroup is a subclade of R-Z93 and I share common segments on gedmatch with this sample.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

It is also suggested that he could be a Proto-Greek. He could also be an outlier in my opinion. R-Z93 is very rare in Balkans nowdays. What I think is that a minority of IE settlers in Balkans could be from Srubna culture and this could justify the R-Z93 sample. My haplogroup is a subclade of R-Z93 and I share common segments on gedmatch with this sample.

Well it's likely to come from Srubnaya so it wouldn't be proto-Greek but instead (Cimmero-)Daco-Thracian. Proto-Greek more than likely comes from Catacomb, before satemisation innovations took place on the Steppe, so associated with Z2103. Armenian is the same, but they seem to have been influenced by this satemisation. I'd guess that would be because perhaps they left from Late Catacomb rather than somewhat earlier like the Greeks, or perhaps because of the much later Iranian influence. I'd guess the former to be correct, especially as it also explains why Armenian is only "partially" satemised (though I don't know the details of that).

 

[xri34]

Well it's likely to come from Srubnaya so it wouldn't be proto-Greek but instead (Cimmero-)Daco-Thracian. Proto-Greek more than likely comes from Catacomb, before satemisation innovations took place on the Steppe, so associated with Z2103. Armenian is the same, but they seem to have been influenced by this satemisation. I'd guess that would be because perhaps they left from Late Catacomb rather than somewhat earlier like the Greeks, or perhaps because of the much later Iranian influence. I'd guess the former to be correct, especially as it also explains why Armenian is only "partially" satemised (though I don't know the details of that).

So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

 

[Tomenable]

the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")

Maybe they kept to themselves in the same way as Americans keep to themselves and don't mix with e.g. Canadians (not sure if this is really the case, but you know what I mean - American is an identity but it is not one genetic cluster; you can imagine that some White Pride Americans keep to themselves despite not being a genetically homogeneous group: some White Nationalists are Russian, some British, some German, etc.).

Something about the size of those tribes (apparently they were incorporating foreigners into their ranks):

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005286961;view=1up;seq=100

Documentary:

 

[Angela]

So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

So Daco-Thracians were R1b-Z2103 but also to some extent R-Z93 due to interractions with Srubnaya(satemisation) while Proto-Greeks only R1b-Z2103? This could explain the low frequency of Z93 in Balkans I think.

No I think Daco-Thracians at least at first were mostly R1a-Z93. I don't think they were influenced from Srubnaya, I think they came from Srubnaya.

 

[Angela]

How do we know he's a Visigoth and not some sort of slave - what was his burial like and when was it dated to? I'd expect that person not to be an actual Visigoth but rather to be a slave or maybe a mercenary (especially given the Y DNA, any mixing would be female-mediated and the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")).

Why don't you check the archaeology in the supplement and find out?

Goodness. You remind me of Fire-Haired. He never would read anything either.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.

Instead of ad hominems you can at least give your arguments. It's obvious to anybody with half a brain, and that includes you as you're clearly intelligent, that R1b spread Hellenic languages to Greece. That R1b was also obviously Z2103, no other candidate exists. R1a is a possibility instead but R1a in Greece if I'm not mistaken is actually mostly Slavic for one thing, but also it doesn't make a difference as to the basic argument of hierarchies.

 

[xri34]

Please don't mistake the certitude with which some people post for the purveying of correct information.

We have no idea what R1b, if any, the Mycenaeans carried. The only ydna we have for them so far is J2a.

Yes I know that but I think it is quite possible to exist some R1b-Z2103 in Myceneans since they had some steppe admixture. what is your opinion about the Bulgaria R-Z93 sample? Do you think he could be a Proto-Thracian?

 

[xri34]

No I think Daco-Thracians at least at first were mostly R1a-Z93. I don't think they were influenced from Srubnaya, I think they came from Srubnaya.

I think it is suggested they came from Multi-Cordoned ware culture.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

I think it is suggested they came from Multi-Cordoned ware culture.

Interesting, that makes sense too. Perhaps that's associated with Daco-Thracians and Srubnaya proper the Cimmerians. In any case the Srubnaya link has to be strong. That actually makes a lot of sense, I can't see there being any better hypothesis.

 

[xri34]

Interesting, that makes sense too. Perhaps that's associated with Daco-Thracians and Srubnaya proper the Cimmerians. In any case the Srubnaya link has to be strong. That actually makes a lot of sense, I can't see there being any better hypothesis.

The Crimmerians interacted with Thracians during the Iron Age. They were at steppes untill 900 BC. What we know is that Multi-Cordoned ware culture had many interactions with Srubna culture before the IE settlers leave the steppes for Balkans. So some of the settlers could have origin from Srubna culture (R-Z93).

 

[Johane Derite]

1. We know that Illyrians were in Epirus.

2. We know that the name of Dodona, the cradle of the Greek religion is considered linguistically Illyrian rather than Greek.

3. We know that the Dorians seem to have been influenced a lot by Illyrians, and possibly outdated, but Coon noted that the Dorian parts of Greece have more
Dinaric traits. Albanians are the archetypal dinarics.

4. We now know that even from the most bad faith conservative linguists like Joachim Matzinger who made media appearances that "Albanian was opposite of Illyrian", that Albanian is a language "close to Illyrian and Messapian". This is a multi-faceted concession that entails very big details. Firstly, it means he is admitting implicitly that Messapians and Illyrians spoke a language like Albanian, hence not a Celtic-like, Italic-like,
or Germanic like language. He also didn't say Albanian is a language "close to Thracian" or "close to Dacian" which means Albanian is in the West Balkans. He also admits that the Albanian language can be used to decipher the few glosses and inscriptions we have from them. This is a big concession which has had no media coverage despite it being groundbreaking for european and world historiography. It is groundbreaking since now even if you want to argue Albanian doesn't descend from Illyrian, you are forced to concede that all the famous Illyrians like Constantine the Great (legalized Christianity), Justinian the Great, spoke a language close to Albanian. You have to concede that the Messapian civillization spoke a language close to Albanian. You have to concede that Pyrrhus was raised by people speaking a language close to Albanian. And this is significant.

5. Since we know Messapians spoke a language like Albanian, it's not surprising that we see a lot more Ev13 in Apulia. It's also not surprising that we see J2b2-L283 there and up along the coast into the Po Valley. There needs to be more higher resolution tests of these Albanian/Italian connections so that it can be appropriately dated, but there seems to be no will for this yet.

6. The J2b2-L283 found in a royal grave dated 3500 BC in Croatia in Mathieson Genomic History of Southeast Europe is high steppe relatively.

7. J2 split into J2a and J2b some 27,700 years ago. The difference is bigger than R1a and R1b. Stop saying J2 for South East europe without qualifying J2a or J2b as its as useful as saying R1, means nothing and both were present here. Almost all European J2b members belong to the L283 branch and share a common patrilineal ancestor who lived 6,000 years ago. 99% of them fall under the Z628 (aka Z597) clade, with a shared common ancestor who lived only 4,500 years ago.

8. Aspurg believes he has noted clades of EV13 and R1b that are possibly "Illyrian-Dorian".

Quoting him on Ev13: "some clades under Z5018 seem to have migrated more to the West pre-second Illyrian wave in LBA/EIA, and they show tendencies of spreading with Illyrian groups. Namely L241 and Y145455. Same might go for some CTS9320 clades, especially under Z16988. You spoke few times of Illyrian-Dorian connection. I believe this connection existed and I have found some clear genetic traces of it, and one of those seems L241. I think there are going to be Ancient Greek L241 clades (already there are L241+ there but without deeper tests) and PH2180 is Illyrian, same as some L241*"

Quoting him on R1b: "In a study about Y-DNA on Crete Lasithi Plateau had a high percentage of R1b, I got one of those haplotypes, and they are a clade of U152 that is distantly related (3000+ ybp) to their cousins in Herzegovina R-Y4354, of the Vlach Ugarak tribe. Vlach Zotovic clan has the same Y-DNA, and Zotovic is supposed to be derived from Albanian "Zot". Because this clade has no close relatives at all but has distant relatives in Greece, even Cyprus, it should be Illyrian/Dorian and this clade is another Illyrian-Dorian connection."

9. A polish linguist found Albanian loanwords in the folk vocabulary of Spartan Poet Alcman's work (7th Century BC). This means proto-Albanians and the Spartans (Dorians) must have interacted. Since at least 7th Century BC. Orel also noted that Greek and Albanian share many isoglosses not shared by any other Indo European language, and that this points to intense contact between Proto-Greek and Proto-Albanian in antiquity.

10. Plotting ancient sample on Gedmatch is valuable and important, but lets be weary that there isn't artefacts that skew it one way or the other. If the plot of these samples is correct, then it's interesting in that it suggests that the ancient Y-Dna lines that have remained consistent in Albanians since that time must have become autosomally skewed east by a lot of Slav women. It's not too feasible for me such a scenario, but if you guys want to insist that Slav women came to the balkans and mated with the males here so much then I won't protest too much.

 

[Johane Derite]

1. We know that

For Point 5. see the "Reconstructing the genetic history of Italians: new insights from a male (Y-chromosome) perspective" where they found J2b2 and Ev13 in Apulia and up the coast into po valley.
For Point 9. see "The earliest Albanian loanwords in Greek" by Krzysztof Witczak, published by the Institute of Modern Greek Studies, and Orel, "Concise Historical Grammar of Albanian"


Source images for the points:

Point 4:

Point 3:

Point 2:

 

[LABERIA]

According to Aris Poulianous, probably the most important Greek anthropologist:
- ".. Descent of Illyrio-Vlach tribe(s) until to Sfakia, Crete... "

 

[Gash]

Its obvious Albanians derive their ancestry from samples found in Bronze Age West Balkans and not East Balkans. The Bronze Age samples in West Balkans carried typical Albanian Y-DNA markers also. That this isn't ticking for people such as the OP and some here is amazing.

The sample found in Bulgaria isn't even a Bronze Age , its supposedly an Iron age. It is a totally different time frame. It is actually dated to be earlier than most of the Late Bronze Age samples despite an Iron Age. When you look at it's date and autosomal makeup, makes me think the sample is a Neolithic farmer. Its as South as Sardinians.

Its like comparing apples and oranges. Because it is autosomally closer means basically nothing when its obvious we derive a large chunk of our ancestry from Bronze Age West Balkans including Y-DNA markers. At the end of the day, except maybe for the Bronze Age Montenigrin, none of these samples are 100% identical to modern Balkan people or even Albanians.

But the Iron Age Bulgarian isn't autosomally closer even when compared to West Balkan Bronze Age samples. It is way too South shifted. And those samples from Dalmatia are way too North / West. Not that such a comparison would even matter when they are different time frames.


Its amazing how the OP ignores all this and uses that one single Iron Age sample from Bulgaria , which isn't even close to us, to determine that Ancient East Balkan samples were closer. Most Albanians aren't like South Italians.

When you take all samples together or just compare Bronze Age samples, you clearly see Ancient West Balkan samples are closer and even carry the same YDNA markers ... quite the opposite of what the OP is claiming.

 

[Maciamo]

IMHO, I3313 and I4331 from BA Croatia could well be Proto-Italic.