Bronze Age Balkan DNA

Ok

By what I know
Red and Blond is something that can be detected,

Red hair also gives a colour in skin is after a gene, so it has a mark
Blond also has a shade in skin pigmentation and is after a gene, so it has a mark

the only we can not detected is the Brown and all the shades of brown from brown/blond to brown/red to dark brown.
cause brown mainly has not a typical gene, so no detected mark,

plz If I am worng correct me,
but I think that is the way it has,
 
/h
Well not majority but unless all Greeks were colourblind or just plain stupid the point has to be accepted. It would be like saying the Irish are red-haired, not like 90% of them having red hair
I understand what you mean. But I still think that the descriptions shouldn't be taken too literally, it's possible that lighter brown hair could've been mistaken for red. They could be exaggerations, such as how the Slavs were claimed to have been all red haired when in fact Slavs have lower frequencies of red hair. Anthropologists iirc believed that Thracians looked almost exactly like Greeks. Anyhow, the point of my post was to show that despite being more SE shifted than her Bronze Age ancestors, the Iron Age sample from Lyaskovets was still most certainly a Thracian.

Pigmentation of ancient Bulgarian samples:
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2509) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2520) - Dark brown hair, blue eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2510) - Light skin, dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2176) - Dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2175) - Black hair, blue eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2165) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Mid-late Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2163) - Light skin, blond hair, blue eyes
. Iron Age Bulgaria(I5769) - Light skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/
 
Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.

Edit:

Well actually Gash is right that West Balkan samples were also similar to Albanians.
 
Last edited:
Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.


Nope.

The Eastern Balkan samples weren't close to Albanians , except for that Iron Age due to high Neolithic, and even Albanians aren't identical , Albanians are as North as North Italians and as South as Sardinians too . The sample in the OP is still closer to Albanians even than that Iron Age Bulgaria , on k36 it has a similarity with Albania of 77 and it gets Albanian and Kosovar on the other calculators. Those other samples from East Balkans were much further away, plotting with Austrians and North East Euros and that Iron Age Southern shifted sample wasn't as close either.

The Bronze Age Dalmatian in the OP is the closest to Albanians followed by that J2b2 and the Iron Age in Bulgaria. The J2b2 is caring the same YDna as Albanians, shows there has been a genetic continuity in the Western Balkans since like the Bronze Age, atleast by Ydna. All those 3 late bronze age samples in Croatia are caring typical Albanian markers. Even the word Dalmatian was explained in the Albanian language


Those Bronze Age Dalmatians were also close to Bulgarians and Macedonians closer than they were to Serbs or Croats or Bosniaks, shows the Thracians and Ilyrians were genetically similar people.

All these samples are just prehistoric samples anyway but those samples found in Dalmatia are the closest thing to Albanians and also closer to Bulgarians and Macedonians than to Serbs, Croats and Bosniaks , many Albanians are skmilar to North Italians.




There was also a late bronze age sample from Montenegro that was plotting close to Albanians and Bulgarians , even closer than this.


for a guy who is into genetics you certainly dont seem to know much or even have an observation.
 
The sample in the OP has a high similarity with Albania on k36, actually highest in the Balkans

uUNh7mx.png


K15 and K13 dont use Albanian samples , it gets Albanian and Kosovar on other calcs, if you look at the previous page , it just depends on what Albanian samples, same way it depends on what Bulgarians or Macedonians


Italian-North 3.092 Italian_North 5.353 Kosovar 6


The sample in Bulgaria had less genetic similarity with Albanians or even Bulgarians or Macedonians , it only got Albania at 67

p91cO6w.png





It is still closer to Albanians than to other Balkan people , but it doesnt get close Albanian on calcs like that other sample or even similarity ... and those populations cannot be modeled the way you claim


A lot of this also depends on what samples you use for these populations like Albanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians

the sample from Dalmatia in OP is still closer to certain Albanians, Bulgarians and Macedonians

Italian_North 2.052Tuscan 5.73Albanian 6.214Bulgarian 6.865


A lot of this closeness is also just genetic similarity ,


I cannot see how Eastern Balkan samples were closer , except for the Iron Age in Bulgaria and it still isnt as close as that Dalmatian as you can see.

And the Bulgarian being close is genetic similarity rather than ancestry considering Albanians are west Balkanites , same way Macedonians and Bulgarians are Eastern yet closer to the Dalmatian .
 
Interesting how you magically reached to the conclusion that Eastern Balkan samples were closer when you clearly see that those Western Balkan samples are closer and they also carry typical Albanian markers , Albanians are also nothing like South Italians except for some really southern shifted ones.


That sample in Bulgaria isnt even that much closer to Greeks by the looks of it than Greeks are to that Bronze Age sample in the OP. And any closeness would just be Neolithic like ancestry
 
Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.
 
Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.

He isn't right at all. Those Western Balkan samples are still closer despite where they plot. And they even plot closer to certain North Albanians than that other sample. They are just more Western shifted. Look at the evidence I posted , especially the sample in the OP, despite where it plots , it is still closer as you can see , it has a higher similarity . What exactly is he right about ? The sample in Bulgaria was also more West than present day inhabitants and way more South than most Albanians. Plotting means literally nothing , even by plotting , those samples in Dalmatia are closer to many Northern Albanians, Bulgarians etc than that sample in Bulgaria. As it being more West than Albanians changes that when that other sample in Bulgaria is way more South than most.

You seem to emphasis a lot on West , and plotting.

A lot of Albanians are West shifted but not as West shifted as that sample. A lot of Albanians are like North Italians / Tuscans , only East and not like South Italians , only some are. The other Dalmatian J2b2 carries also a typical Albanian marker.


Other Eastern Balkan samples were plotting with Austrians and North East Euros, the Iron Age sample Bulgaria is the only one that is like this and it still isnt closer than those Bronze Age samples in Dalmatia, it is only closer to some really southern shifted Balkanites ... Northern Albanians / Kosovars arent like South Italians. Those samples in Dalmatia are closer despite they are more West because that Bulgarian is more South.

Based on one single sample from Bulgaria this guy reaches to the conclusion that they were closer while ignoring those other Iron Age samples from Bulgaria found that were very different
 
Because the samples from Dalmatia are more West doesn't make them less close when that sample from Bulgaria was more South ... Its just a Neolithic like sample , that Ev13 in Croatia would probably plot something similar , which shows you it has nothing to do with West or East nor can the origin of people be assigned based on these samples alone , especially when all these samples are very different from each other depending on the time frame despite coming from same area . There is literally nothing that suggests these samples are historical Ilyrians or Thracians but more like Proto. There is a reason why most of these samples arent plotting with modern Balkanites.

That sample found in Bulgaria wasnt closer to North Albanians, Bulgarians or Macedonians , the Dalmatian in the OP is closer .... the one from Bulgaria was way more South .

the way he also models modern Balkan populations is totally wrong. This dude and many people on other forums have no idea about Albanian or Balkan genetics and lump us all together, North Albanians are nothing like South Italians, we are closer to North Italians and Tuscans like those samples from Dalmatia , only difference is that they are more west and a bit more north but there are Albanians who are as North as that sample.

Just look at its k36 , the sample from Dalmatia has a higher similarity with Albania , on calcs it gets Albanian and Kosovar as top 3 countries / ethnicites , it is closer to many North Albanians / Kosovars than that sample found in Bulgaria which is way more Southern shifted which is literally why the Dalmatian is getting Albania as closer , weather West or Not .... there was a sample from Late Bronze Age Montenegro that was even closer , plotting with Bulgarians / North Albanians. All Western Balkan samples also carry typical Albanian markers , especially J2b2 L283. The J2b2 was less close but still carries a typical marker and the Bulgarian wasnt much closer.


You're ignoring genetic similarity in favor of West shifted plotting ... what does it even matter I wonder when that sample in Bulgaria is more South shifted than most Balkanites , It still doesnt change that sample from Dalmatia in OP is closer , and even by plotting it is closer to many North Albanians / Kosovars and Bulgarians , it is just more Western and a bit more North
 
Here is another Bronze Age Dalmatian:

I4332 Ancient Dalmatia - kit TX8387837

It seems that Ancient Western Balkans had people similar to modern North Italians.

While Eastern Balkans had people more similar to Albanians/Greeks/South Italians.
Not really accurate since the western Balkan samples are Bronze Age and the eastern Balkan samples you are talking about are Iron Age. We should compare samples from the same time frame. The Bronze Age Dalmatian samples are far closer to Albanians than the Bronze Age Bulgarian samples. The Bronze Age Bulgarian guy was practically indistinguishable from Srubnaya individuals.
 
Let me exlplain myself better to show you that I am right and you're both wrong. As this guy is extremely biased obviously based on his conclusion. It is mind boggling how people manipulative genetic evidence to suit their own agenda.

1. The bronze age sample in Dalmatia might of been more Western shifted than Albanians but that sample from Bulgaria is more Southern shifted , this doesnt make the sample from Bulgaria closer , if you look at the K36 similarity, the Bronze Age sample in Dalmatia in the OP has a higher similarity with Albania at 77 while the one in Bulgaria gets 66. Of course this depends on what Albanians. North Albanians / Kosovars are like North Italians / Tuscans while some Southern Albanians are more south like that sample , this doesnt mean they derive their ancestry from such a sample , same way Greeks or South Italians literally have nothing to do with some sample from Bulgaria, its just shared Neolithic ancestry.

2. The Bronze Age sample in Dalmatia gets Kosovar and Albanian as top 3 ethnicties in many calculators that uses Albanian samples, while the sample from Bulgaria doesnt get it as close. Once again making the sample from Dalmatia closer to Albanians, atleast Gheg Albanians.

3. The other sample from Dalmatia which is found in the same time frame carried a typical North Albanian marker , J2b2 L283. Autosomally it wasnt as close as the first one, but still not much less close than the one from Bulgaria. Once again closer to Albanians. Pretty much all these Late Bronze Age samples in West Balkans are closer to North Albanians, although not 100% identical and carry typical Albanian markers, J2b2 l23 , R1b - z2103

This all means the sample from Bulgaria isn't closer to Albanians , and if it is its some Southern Albanians who are Sicilian like rather than North Albanians. You can't base peoples origin on such a sample either.

But every evidence points that Albanians are Ilyrians that lived in the Western Balkans for thousands of years. That sample in Bulgaria isn't a Thracian btw. Its just a Neolithic sample. Thracians were probably genetically similar people to Ilyrians. You can see this also by the fact that Macedonians and Bulgarians were also close to those West Balkan Bronze Age samples. There have been actual Thracian samples found and they plotted with Tuscans. They were closer to Albanians but its most likely due to Thracians and Ilyrians being autosomally similar.

There was also a Late Bronze Age sample found in Montenegro that plotted with Bulgarians, basically where a lot of North Albanians also plot.

Late Bronze Age Balkan samples from West Balkans are basically closer to Albanians than any other samples found in the Balkans and carry typical Albanian markers.


East Balkan samples weren't closer ... Other samples found in East Balkan were like Austrians and North East Europeans , that Iron Age was the most Souhthern one and the most closest one but still not any closer than Late Bronze Age West Balkan samples.


There is literally nothing right about what this guy is saying and the way he is modelling modern Balkan populations based on these samples is also totally wrong. The way he reaches to conclusions is absolutely nonsense. He is literally trying to say that Ancient East Balkanites were like us while West Balkanites werent which is wrong and he bases this off one sample which isnt even closer .... All these ancient Balkan samples are acrually very different from eachother depending on the time frame despite they are found in same areas , which makes what this guy says wrong again.

Even if there was one sample that was closer doesnt mean we derive our ancestry from such a sample but maybe also a population that was genetically similar.

The J2b2 L283 in Albanians is of West Balkan origin and strengthen an Ilyrian origin, even the word Dalmatia has been explained in the Albanian language

Its too bad dudes like this use this to manipulate things into their own agenda. He's just lying anyway.
 
Those Western Balkan samples were more 'western' than the present day inhabitants. Tomenable is right.

Absolutely.

The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

The Slavs are from a much later period.
 
Not really accurate since the western Balkan samples are Bronze Age and the eastern Balkan samples you are talking about are Iron Age. We should compare samples from the same time frame. The Bronze Age Dalmatian samples are far closer to Albanians than the Bronze Age Bulgarian samples. The Bronze Age Bulgarian guy was practically indistinguishable from Srubnaya individuals.

Very good point. Shows how biased this dude is. Uses one sample to reach to a conclusion. Those bronze age samples in Dalmatia were still closer to Albos than that Iron Age and carried typical Albanian markers even if they werent 100 % identical ... obviously Albanian J2b2 l283 and R1b derive from a Western Balkan source, meaning Ilyrian.

No matter much genetic evidence people like this will manipulate it to suit their agenda , now hes fed another generation of Serbian nationalists and Bosniensis nutcases. I am out of these forums. Let these losers have it.

Albanians atleast , North Albanians are nothing like South Italians ... I get mostly Tuscan and North Italian on these calcs. Some more Southern Albos are South Italian like, we cant all be lumped the same.


That sample from Bulgaria isn't really an Iron Age btw ... atleast Iron Age doesnt seem to be a specific time frame , it dates back much earlier than other Iron Age samples. To me it almost seems Neolithic.

East Balkan samples also carried markers that arent even found in Albanians
 
Absolutely.

The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

The Slavs are from a much later period.

I'm not sure what you mean but the data isn't clear at all and is showing you what I'm telling you but whatever

The sample found in Bulgaria isn't closer to Albanians , it's more Southern than most Albanians while the sample found in Dalmatia is more Western. I am not disputing that it is more western but this doesn't make the sample from Bulgaria closer or East Balkan samples closer. The data shows the sample from Dalmatia is still closer to Albanians , Bulgarians and Macedonians and they also carried typical Albanian markers in those areas. All Bronze Age samples found in West Balkans carried typical Albanian markers. J2b2 L283 especially.

The samples from Dalmatia are closer this is why it has a higher similarity on K36 compared to the one from Bulgaria , it is also getting Kosovar and Albanian on calculators much closer than that sample from Bulgaria so not sure what you mean that the data is clear .... The sample from Bulgaria is only closer to some really Southern shifted Albanians and some Greeks and South Italians.

Also most East Balkan samples were nothing like Albanians either , Bronze Age samples found in Bulgaria were plotting with Austrians and North East Europeans. Totally contradicts what this guy is saying that East Balkan samples were closer. He is just using that Iron Age to reach to such a conclusion.

While the Bronze Age samples in west Balkans that have been found are closer to Albanians , Bulgarians, Macedonians etc than the Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans , they also carried typical Albanian markers like J2b2 L283 , R1bz2103 as I said.

You can just take a look at the calculator results I posted to see that I am right ,

There was another Late Bronze Age sample found in Montenegro that was also closer to Albanians, Bulgarians etc and even much closer than this which was called Jaz1

2n9xiz8.jpg


The plotting of Albanians depends a lot, there are Albanians that plot where those Bulgarians plot .... but you can see this Bronze Age Montenigrin is also closer than that Iron Age found in East Balkans , it also closer than the Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans ... Its closer to Greeks even ... its also EASTERN SHIFTED as you can see and not Western

https://www.researchgate.net/public...me_series_from_coastal_and_hinterland_Croatia


Pretty much all Bronze Age samples found in West Balkans are closer to Albanians , Greeks , Bulgarians , Macedonians than Bonze Age samples found in East Balkans ....

I cannot see how ancient East Balkanites were closer to us , he just used one Iron Age sample from Bulgaria to compare to West Balkan samples yet ignores those other Bronze Age samples in East Balkans that werent as close .... and even this Iron Age isnt close either ... you cant just lump all people of the Balkan together either ... Alao most of our ydna markers derive from Late bronze Age West balkan samples.


The data is clear here and its saying what I am saying . Also Im not saying I think what Thracians were like . There were actual Thracian samples found that plotted with Tuscans and not Neolithic or Bronze Age or Iron Age. They were later deleted.


This guy reaches to conclusion claiming Ancient East Balkan people were closer to us than West Balkan based on one Iron Age sample when the data shows something totally different when you compare all samples together and also Ydna markers its obvious West Balkan samples are closer... he also used samples to compare that were at different time frames such as Iron Age vs Bronze Age which is wrong,
 
If you don't believe that the OP is biased and most of you then let me phrase it again before I take a hike as the data is pretty clear


1. All Bronze Age samples found in the West Balkans were closer to Albanians than Bronze Age samples found in the East Balkans , these Late Bronze Age samples found in West Balkan even carried typical Albanian YDNA markers J2b2 L283 and R1b z0913 .... Bronze Age samples found in East Balkans were plotting with East Europeans and Austrians, they had I2a2 markers and R1a ... I2a2 is only found in South Albania at low levels .

Late Bronze Age sample from Montenegro was pretty much plotting with Bulgarians. Where a lot of Albanians plot and isnt too far away and even closer than the Dalmatian.


What this dude does is that he ignores this and uses the Iron Age from Bulgaria to conclude that Ancient East Balkan people were closer ... to compare, he uses samples from different time frames to reach to such a conclusion. It is rather hilarious how someone can be so biased.

Instead of also using Bronze Age samples from East Balkans to compare to Bronze Age samples from West Balkans, he uses that one single Iron Age and even that one isnt really closer. Especially not when compared autosomally to that female Dalmatian or the one from Montenegro.


To me the data is pretty clear.

I am out and have fun.
 
Absolutely.

The data is clear. I don't see the point of arguing about it.

The way to figure out what the Thracians were like is by testing the samples in Thracian tombs, from the Thracian period, buried with and by the funeral rituals of the Thracians.

You don't start out by just "stating" what you think the Thracians should have been like. They seem to have been formed from the addition of some steppe ancestry to the typical Late Neolithic farmer population of the Balkans.

The Slavs are from a much later period.
Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.
 
Thracian samples have been tested, 3 from the Iron Age. 2 of the samples had a higher amount of EEF ancestry which has made some people think that there was some sort of genetic continuation from the Neolithic, but culturally and linguistically these samples were most certainly what would've been called Thracian. 1 was buried near the Mezek tombs whilst the other in Lyaskovets. The other sample had a higher percentage of steppe admix than the other two and was found in a kurgan in southeastern Bulgaria. The sample which was located near Mezek was tested as E-V13* whilst the one in the Kurgan was likely R1b-Z2103.

I know they've been tested. That was my point. They have nothing to do with Slavs.

I have no idea why you think there's a contradiction between the two things you mention in the bolded phrase. Steppe people definitely admixed with the people they encountered in the Balkans. Look at the Mycenaeans. They've always been the pre-eminent example of an Indo-European steppe derived people, they spoke an Indo-European language, yet they carried only about 10-19% actual steppe ancestry.

@Tomenable,

Thanks for that. Perhaps you should post that on the Olalde thread. It supports Markod's idea that the Visigoths were a confederation of various groups picked up along the way, like the Huns, not a collection of Germanic tribes.
 
/h
I understand what you mean. But I still think that the descriptions shouldn't be taken too literally, it's possible that lighter brown hair could've been mistaken for red. They could be exaggerations, such as how the Slavs were claimed to have been all red haired when in fact Slavs have lower frequencies of red hair. Anthropologists iirc believed that Thracians looked almost exactly like Greeks. Anyhow, the point of my post was to show that despite being more SE shifted than her Bronze Age ancestors, the Iron Age sample from Lyaskovets was still most certainly a Thracian.

Pigmentation of ancient Bulgarian samples:
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2509) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2520) - Dark brown hair, blue eyes
. Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2510) - Light skin, dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2176) - Dark brown hair, brown eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2175) - Black hair, blue eyes
. Early Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2165) - Light skin, black hair, brown eyes
. Mid-late Bronze Age Bulgaria(I2163) - Light skin, blond hair, blue eyes
. Iron Age Bulgaria(I5769) - Light skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018/02/24/pigmentation-of-ancient-southeastern-europeans/

How is it possible lighter brown hair would be mistaken for red? What about the various artistic depictions of the Thracians on top of what they wrote?

Make up your mind from this below, though I will address the criticisms: firstly Dr. Cohen is, to be frank, being an "anti-Nazi" which is understandable but not evidence-based - we are obviously to expect to find people in that region genetically much more "Northern European" than any modern Bulgarian, so there's no reason why the same could not be true for pigmentation that practically by definition follows genotype. As regarding the claim that the Slavs, Scythians etc. were red-haired when Eastern Europeans aren't so much now, I'll refer you to Maciamo's analysis of Corded Ware genomes, which are more closely related to Western Europeans than Eastern Europeans (basically, Corded Ware has much higher Western European than Eastern European and also prefers Gedrosian rather than Caucasian, which is the case in the West too and mirrors the distribution of red hair in Europe).

Finally, to all but the mentally blind, it's clear that red-hair is underrepresented by phenotypical calculators (I think blonde hair is also overrepresented) - as an example British Bell Beakers apparently have NO red hair, which is a dead giveaway. You can check this with modern populations as Genetiker tested them for hair colour etc. and it fits perfectly - phenotypical calculators give modern Brits far too much blonde hair and too little red hair.

5QA7Ifg.png


If I am to remain open-minded, the ONLY other possibility that could be considered realistic is a situation like Germanic tribes (e.g. Suebi) who would dye their hair red for battle. However that doesn't explain why e.g. so many Thracian personal names referred to red hair.
5QA7Ifg

30940-Autosomal-analysis-of-Yamna-Corded-Ware-and-Bell-Beaker-samples
 
One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about

How do we know he's a Visigoth and not some sort of slave - what was his burial like and when was it dated to? I'd expect that person not to be an actual Visigoth but rather to be a slave or maybe a mercenary (especially given the Y DNA, any mixing would be female-mediated and the Visigoths by and large kept to themselves (which is alluded to in the origin of the term "blue-blooded")).
 

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