Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast
Results 251 to 275 of 339

Thread: Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

  1. #251
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Carlos's Avatar
    Join Date
    26-09-11
    Posts
    1,795
    Points
    24,492
    Level
    47
    Points: 24,492, Level: 47
    Level completed: 95%, Points required for next Level: 58
    Overall activity: 68.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-BY7449*>YF66572
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5c1

    Ethnic group
    EspaƱa
    Country: Spain



    A third group is missing to complete the triangulation that would have created the conflict in which that supposed male lineage would have disappeared.

  2. #252
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    A third group is missing to complete the triangulation that would have created the conflict in which that supposed male lineage would have disappeared.
    What do you mean by this? I would be grateful if you would expand on it. To which supposed male lineage are you referring? And why do you say we need a third group to have created a conflict?
    (The data suggests to me, in any case, that there were at least three groups - the Iberian Neolithics, the 4th millennium BC Eastern newcomers and the 3rd millennium BC Eastern newcomers.)

  3. #253
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    That doesn't mean that M269 originating south of the Caucasus, and then taking a long detour over the Caucasus Mtns, and then across the steppes and the whole of Europe, to arrive in Iberia, relatively unadmixed in c.3500 BCE is impossible. Just improbable.
    Thinking about this, I am not sure that a lack of admixture is improbable at all.
    If, as I estimate, a group including M269 migrated from the Balkans to Iberia, they could have done this within a couple of months on foot, let alone on horseback. I don't see why it is probable for the men in this group to have left the families who likely came with them, and instead kidnapped lots of female strangers to mate with from the suspicious communities they came across along the route. It seems far more likely to me that they would have predominantly bred within their own communities and stayed unadmixed, at least for the first few generations.

  4. #254
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-01-18
    Posts
    246
    Points
    2,012
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,012, Level: 12
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Irish/British
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I'm pretty confident that "Steppe ancestry" was meant to signify coming from the Steppe, rather than going to it.
    Not necessarily: "it does indeed look as if ATP3 has a bit over half of Steppe ancestry, but with a higher proportion of northern Middle Eastern and Veddoid than Yamna samples. In other words it could be descended to the pre-Indo-European Anatolian R1b-M269, the group of cattle herders that would cross the Caucasus and settle in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. So could it be an offshoot of cattle herders that directly migrated from Anatolia to Iberia during the Neolithic period.

    Ultimately "steppe" is simply a profile based on Yamnaya - whether M269 and associated admixtures originated from the steppe or south of the Caucasus is unclear.

    Even if these cattle herders did not migrate through the Steppe, the point is that they still seem to have had what Maciamo identifies as Steppe ancestry from some prior stage.
    Exactly.

    Many things seem improbable - like one man with R1b-L151 circa 2,800 BC spawning direct descendants that became the majority population over half a continent within a few hundred years.
    The idea that M269 people remained unadmixed up to when they set sail from South (or North) of the Caucasus and ended up (still unadmixed) in North West inland Spain also looks improbable to me. Yet we can see patches of Anatolian DNA improbably spreading across much of Europe during the Neolithic and remaining relatively unadmixed.
    Which is the rub. With EEF moving into Iberia (last half of 4th Millennium?), they likely remained unadmixed because 1) they brought their wives and daughters with them and 2) the resident hunter-gatherer population was sparse and thinly spread. Archaeology shows every indication that they came from the Aegean. My hypothesis is a simple one: M269 individuals (or a small group) simply hitched a ride (probably without "cattle," although maybe with some calves). There is no data, genetic or archaeological, that indicate they ever amounted to more than outliers and exceptions.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

  5. #255
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Not necessarily: "it does indeed look as if ATP3 has a bit over half of Steppe ancestry, but with a higher proportion of northern Middle Eastern and Veddoid than Yamna samples. In other words it could be descended to the pre-Indo-European Anatolian R1b-M269, the group of cattle herders that would cross the Caucasus and settle in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe. So could it be an offshoot of cattle herders that directly migrated from Anatolia to Iberia during the Neolithic period.

    Ultimately "steppe" is simply a profile based on Yamnaya - whether M269 and associated admixtures originated from the steppe or south of the Caucasus is unclear.



    Exactly.



    Which is the rub. With EEF moving into Iberia (last half of 4th Millennium?), they likely remained unadmixed because 1) they brought their wives and daughters with them and 2) the resident hunter-gatherer population was sparse and thinly spread. Archaeology shows every indication that they came from the Aegean. My hypothesis is a simple one: M269 individuals (or a small group) simply hitched a ride (probably without "cattle," although maybe with some calves). There is no data, genetic or archaeological, that indicate they ever amounted to more than outliers and exceptions.
    Simpler: There is no datas that let an open door for M269 to come from Anatolia with Farming. Especially when the related V88, P297 and V1636 seems more and more originating in Europe. Even M73, M269 brother seems Steppe related. I'm not sure how Gimbutas was vindicated but Renfrew was resurected, as he believe?

  6. #256
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Exactly.
    Oh good, we do agree - our semantic debate is over! It was becoming a bit like a theological discussion, trying to decipher the true meaning of Maciamo's word.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Which is the rub. With EEF moving into Iberia (last half of 4th Millennium?), they likely remained unadmixed because 1) they brought their wives and daughters with them and 2) the resident hunter-gatherer population was sparse and thinly spread.
    Agreed, these people were of mixed Steppe and Anatolian ancestry, whichever way they migrated over (method and route currently unknown). They could have brought their wives and daughters with them, whether they migrated by sea or land.

    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Archaeology shows every indication that they came from the Aegean. My hypothesis is a simple one: M269 individuals (or a small group) simply hitched a ride (probably without "cattle," although maybe with some calves). There is no data, genetic or archaeological, that indicate they ever amounted to more than outliers and exceptions.
    Possibly the Aegean, as genetic data indicates that their autosomal analysis fits optimally with samples just a couple of hundred miles away in Bulgaria.
    I don't agree there is no genetic data indicating that they successfully bred. Firstly, mixing Central European Bell Beaker with Iberian Neolithic does not give the optimal fit for Iberian Bronze Age - to improve on the fit, you need to factor in a proportion of El Portalon. Secondly, a very similar autosomal fit pops up in Vucedol, which I believe is most likely related to the older El Portalon samples - and this is what leans me to the hypothesis that some M269 ancestors of El Portalon and Vucedol migrated westwards from Bulgaria up the Danube (quite possibly, as you hypothesise, by boat). And if they did hitch a ride, they might well have done so in return for protection services.
    .

  7. #257
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Simpler: There is no datas that let an open door for M269 to come from Anatolia with Farming. Especially when the related V88, P297 and V1636 seems more and more originating in Europe. Even M73, M269 brother seems Steppe related. I'm not sure how Gimbutas was vindicated but Renfrew was resurected, as he believe?
    Yes, M269 looks most likely Steppe in origin, but there is no reason why a small number of M269 individuals couldn't have hitched a ride on the coat tails of Anatolian farmers and branched off successfully out of it into Central Europe. This is not saying that M269 came with the Neolithic expansion, but that small groups of them could have found niches for themselves in it during the late Neolithic. This could actually be simpler than the whole lot of L51 suddenly moving over to the other side of the continent lock, stock and barrel, leaving no traces of themselves behind.

  8. #258
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-01-18
    Posts
    246
    Points
    2,012
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,012, Level: 12
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Irish/British
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Simpler: There is no datas that let an open door for M269 to come from Anatolia with Farming. Especially when the related V88, P297 and V1636 seems more and more originating in Europe. Even M73, M269 brother seems Steppe related. I'm not sure how Gimbutas was vindicated but Renfrew was resurected, as he believe?
    Iberia was settled by copper-using agriculturalists in the latter part of the 4th Millennium, who archaeologically speaking look to have come from the Aegean (touching on Greece, Crete, Anatolia, and the Balkans). See Ancient Europe by Stuart Piggott (pp. 75-77).

    On Renfrew and Gimbutas, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmv3J55bdZc

  9. #259
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    I'm not talking about the possibilities of R1b going in Anatolia or the Middle-East previously of Steppe Cultures. I'm saying people are trying to make some weird Steppe -> Balkans -> Anatolia -> Balkans/South Caucasus -> IE languages -> Steppe again hypothesis to explain IE languages. It should at the beginning be an alarm signal. The classic Anatolian and Steppe hypothesis both made sense for long years until genetic datas clearly had favorizing a Steppe origin. And Iberia Chalcolithic dont have to be related to IE peoples and Steppe at all. Did Vinca Copper extraction was related to R1b and Steppe? Probably Not.

    As far as Maciamo hypothesis, they were right with the datas we had about it. People already linked IE languages with R1b and R1a previously of Steppe Cultures dna in 2015, because of their modern predominance linked with IE languages. Problem is, at this time previously and circa-2010, people mostly used STR diversity to explain things i dont even understand, but i know they dont make sense with post-2015 prehistoric datas.

  10. #260
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-01-18
    Posts
    246
    Points
    2,012
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,012, Level: 12
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Irish/British
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I'm not talking about the possibilities of R1b going in Anatolia or the Middle-East previously of Steppe Cultures. I'm saying people are trying to make some weird Steppe -> Balkans -> Anatolia -> Balkans/South Caucasus -> IE languages -> Steppe again hypothesis to explain IE languages. It should at the beginning be an alarm signal. The classic Anatolian and Steppe hypothesis both made sense for long years until genetic datas clearly had favorizing a Steppe origin. And Iberia Chalcolithic dont have to be related to IE peoples and Steppe at all. Did Vinca Copper extraction was related to R1b and Steppe? Probably Not.

    As far as Maciamo hypothesis, they were right with the datas we had about it. People already linked IE languages with R1b and R1a previously of Steppe Cultures dna in 2015, because of their modern predominance linked with IE languages. Problem is, at this time previously and circa-2010, people mostly used STR diversity to explain things i dont even understand, but i know they dont make sense with post-2015 prehistoric datas.
    Hazardous to equate language and DNA. I doubt any M269-individual coming to Iberia c. 3,500 BCE was an IE speaker - it is just too early, unless he arrived via magic-carpet.

  11. #261
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-01-18
    Posts
    246
    Points
    2,012
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,012, Level: 12
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Irish/British
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I don't agree there is no genetic data indicating that they successfully bred. Firstly, mixing Central European Bell Beaker with Iberian Neolithic does not give the optimal fit for Iberian Bronze Age - to improve on the fit, you need to factor in a proportion of El Portalon. Secondly, a very similar autosomal fit pops up in Vucedol, which I believe is most likely related to the older El Portalon samples - and this is what leans me to the hypothesis that some M269 ancestors of El Portalon and Vucedol migrated westwards from Bulgaria up the Danube (quite possibly, as you hypothesise, by boat). And if they did hitch a ride, they might well have done so in return for protection services.
    Or by tour boat...

    Sorry, but for the time, someone just rowboating up the Danube to Iberia is simple fantasy. Magic carpet would be more like it.

  12. #262
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Hazardous to equate language and DNA. I doubt any M269-individual coming to Iberia c. 3,500 BCE was an IE speaker - it is just too early, unless he arrived via magic-carpet.
    My instinct is that he and the people with whom he came most likely spoke a language ancestral to Basque.

  13. #263
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Or by tour boat...

    Sorry, but for the time, someone just rowboating up the Danube to Iberia is simple fantasy. Magic carpet would be more like it.
    You're thinking of Arabia.

    I don't see that sailing right across the Mediterranean, up the Iberian Atlantic coastline, then across the Bay of Biscay to North Central Spain is less fantastical than tracing the usual route up the River Danube.

  14. #264
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    This is the same equation as previous... whatever the culture in question, there will not be any kind of R1b below L23 in Iberia ante-3000 BC. The original Chalcolithic Iberia is probably mostly EEF and none-IE, while R1b start to appear here and there. Remember, 100% of y-dna lineage but only 40% of ancestry. Wich virtually can make all BA Iberia Steppe Men with virtually a lot of dialects.

  15. #265
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey View Post
    Hazardous to equate language and DNA. I doubt any M269-individual coming to Iberia c. 3,500 BCE was an IE speaker - it is just too early, unless he arrived via magic-carpet.
    Wich is basically what everybody is doing. Professionnals or Amateurs. If ones want to negate the idea to link DNA with Language, i dont know what's the interest in those studies for him.

  16. #266
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Just wait until we get more Mesolithic-Neolithic data from the Zagros ;)

  17. #267
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I'm not talking about the possibilities of R1b going in Anatolia or the Middle-East previously of Steppe Cultures. I'm saying people are trying to make some weird Steppe -> Balkans -> Anatolia -> Balkans/South Caucasus -> IE languages -> Steppe again hypothesis to explain IE languages.
    For nomadic people, there is nothing weird about moving around. They might have moved backwards and forwards every year as the seasons changed. And neither is there anything weird about picking up and speaking a language in the place where that language is spoken. What is a bit strange is the belief amongst many that the people with 'Steppe DNA' sat still on the Steppe for tens of thousands of millennia, with no one ever venturing out of it and spreading any of their DNA anywhere else. Of course, their DNA did leak out, and when it leaked out, it didn't always disappear without a trace like a water into the sand; it infused into the DNA of its descendants.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    It should at the beginning be an alarm signal. The classic Anatolian and Steppe hypothesis both made sense for long years until genetic datas clearly had favorizing a Steppe origin. And Iberia Chalcolithic dont have to be related to IE peoples and Steppe at all. Did Vinca Copper extraction was related to R1b and Steppe? Probably Not.
    None of these hypotheses make perfect sense. They are all just simplified models.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    As far as Maciamo hypothesis, they were right with the datas we had about it. People already linked IE languages with R1b and R1a previously of Steppe Cultures dna in 2015, because of their modern predominance linked with IE languages. Problem is, at this time previously and circa-2010, people mostly used STR diversity to explain things i dont even understand, but i know they dont make sense with post-2015 prehistoric datas.
    STR diversity still works fine, and the SNP diversity currently used by yfull is just another version of the same methodology. So long as there is sufficient data, the results should provide an accurate estimate; and the more data available, the more accurate the estimate will get. When people claim the answers it provides are unreliable, it is usually because either (i) they are not calculating it with sufficient sophistication, or (ii) they simply haven't found or published the samples yet to demonstrate its broad accuracy.

  18. #268
    Banned Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630
    Points
    2,745
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,745, Level: 14
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 5
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    This is the same equation as previous... whatever the culture in question, there will not be any kind of R1b below L23 in Iberia ante-3000 BC.
    I don't see how anyone could possibly know that. As L23 most likely started branching apart in the 5th millennium BC (or perhaps even earlier) and there were probably thousands (most likely tens of thousands) of L23 men alive before 3,000 BC, no one can reasonably claim to know where they were all located over the whole of each of their lives.

  19. #269
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I don't see how anyone could possibly know that. As L23 most likely started branching apart in the 5th millennium BC (or perhaps even earlier) and there were probably thousands (most likely tens of thousands) of L23 men alive before 3,000 BC, no one can reasonably claim to know where they were all located over the whole of each of their lives.
    5th Millenium to branching apart, now take the night to calculate how many years it take for it and all variables to become dominant in the Pontic Steppe. It just start with 1 individual.

  20. #270
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Just wait until we get more Mesolithic-Neolithic data from the Zagros ;)
    Are you suggesting that M269 was in Mesolithic-Neolithic Zagros while L754 was years earlier in Northern Italy? Good Luck. Sounds like Iran is still a very internal topic about R1a-R1b nowadays... i wonder why...

  21. #271
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    05-01-18
    Posts
    246
    Points
    2,012
    Level
    12
    Points: 2,012, Level: 12
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 9.0%


    Ethnic group
    Irish/British
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Wich is basically what everybody is doing. Professionnals or Amateurs. If ones want to negate the idea to link DNA with Language, i dont know what's the interest in those studies for him.
    I'm just saying that just because much of "Yamnaya = R1b-M269" (but not all) doesn't mean that "R1b-M269 = IE". A pre-PIE offshoot, as Maciamo hypothesized, could have hitch-hiked a ride to Iberia with a bunch of J2s. Which language? A dead one.

  22. #272
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Are you suggesting that M269 was in Mesolithic-Neolithic Zagros while L754 was years earlier in Northern Italy? Good Luck. Sounds like Iran is still a very internal topic about R1a-R1b nowadays... i wonder why...
    L754 has nothing to do with it, however you'll be pleased to know about the known links of the Mesolithic Zagros to the Epigravettian. All that M269 diversity in the Middle East counts for something given almost all of it is Z2103 (i.e. if Z2103 didn't originate there, it points towards M269/L23 originating there as the diversity isn't from lots of different M269 branches moving in (as only Z2103 did)).

    Ganj Dareh for example shares extra affinity with Yamnaya than CHG alone. You should check out adnaera.com

  23. #273
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    L754 has nothing to do with it, however you'll be pleased to know about the known links of the Mesolithic Zagros to the Epigravettian. All that M269 diversity in the Middle East counts for something given almost all of it is Z2103 (i.e. if Z2103 didn't originate there, it points towards M269/L23 originating there as the diversity isn't from lots of different M269 branches moving in (as only Z2103 did)).

    Ganj Dareh for example shares extra affinity with Yamnaya than CHG alone. You should check out adnaera.com
    Yes because Iran_Neolithic in Yamnaya must absolutely to be link with R1b right? You are writing your own story, for your own bias. You could just say that and stop with the Diversity argument. Diversity made scientists believe in 2010 that R1b-M269 must have been absolutely linked with LBK expansion in Europe. Null. This concept is just flawed or made of vulgar mathematics.

    Also, most of your claims are going beyond me with the logic you try to use. You keep talking about M269* and L23* in Armenia, about Diversity and make claims like L51 probably came from Anatolia or the Middle-East with Metallury, while L51 absolutely doesn't exist in the Middle-East or Anatolia.

    If there is a M269* population at some point in Pontic Steppe who just happened to be related with the one who are going South of the Caucasus, your entire hypothesis gonna shipwrecked. Also Balkans and Samara Region have way more basal M269* and L23* than South Caucasus/Middle-East, once again this discussion about Basal clades, diversity is just flawed and is going nowhere ever.

  24. #274
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Could a group of M269 WHGs/EHGs have survived in some unlikely place in Europe before it got to the steppe? Mainland Italy maybe, or the Alps, Carpathians or what have you?

  25. #275
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,411
    Points
    6,704
    Level
    24
    Points: 6,704, Level: 24
    Level completed: 31%, Points required for next Level: 346
    Overall activity: 23.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    If it survived somewhere, it probably was somwhere Near Balkans and Near Steppe, but without EEF. So let's just imagine what place we didn't really sample about Neolithic Europe. Albania, East Thrace, Crimea, in the Danubian Plain but not linked with Farmers? Bug-Dniester Culture or what about regional farming cultures like Dnieper Cucuteni-Trypillia? I cant really see much more than somwhere in Steppe. It's simple, if chalcolithic L23 and Z2103 came either from Farming Balkans, Chalcolithic Anatolia or Chalcolithic Armenia, we should see EEF, Anatolia_Chl and Armenia_Chl wich is obviously not the case. In the countrary, we see EHG in Areni-1 alongside Iran_Neo and Anatolia_Neo. Also the Maykop paper isn't really relevent, because the Anatolian ancestry here, is clearly linked with the recent Maykop or Meshoko-Darkveti introgression. I think it's still funny because Reich multiple times tried to say that the CHG in Steppe was in fact Iran_Neo, and with such a claim, you dont even need to found anything, because virtually all cultures of neolithic south caucasus could be the origin of it. A way to close a chapter in the urge. It's also funny that they didn't test ( Barros-Daamgard ) the Sidelkino man wich have enough genetic material to be tested for y-dna. Let's sell more articles.

Page 11 of 14 FirstFirst ... 910111213 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •