Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314
Results 326 to 332 of 332

Thread: Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

  1. #326
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Next time read the paper itself, not just the intro.
    "However, all other early farmers were closer to Sardinians (SI Appendix, Figs. S11 and S12), and Basques were closer to El Portalón individuals (or equally close for Gok2) compared with all other early farmers."

    Next time read the whole sentence, not just part of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    By the way, to refute your model, have a look at the Sup Info figure S10. In the Treemix there are three samples with elevated ANE levels: Motala12, Ajvide58 and off course Mal'ta, being the definition of ANE. None are picked to be the admixture in ATP2. ANE is *the* marker of steppe admixture and *the* major part of EHG. Yet still, Treemix prefers a Loschbour admixture into ATP2.
    I was hoping for a proper refutation.

    Loschbour and Mal'ta are from tens of thousands of years beforehand; their descendants and those of people related to them had dispersed all over the place by 3,400 BC, and have little to do with the degree of association between El Portalon and modern populations. And despite the study concluding that "ATP2 groups exclusively with the Basque populations, all other ingroups are rejected", ATP2 is the pretty much the least Basque-associated of all the eight El Portalon samples (deriving predominantly from prior Neolithic Iberian admixture).

    As the study identifies, the closest group on the Iberian Peninsula to the El Portalon cluster "are Basques (both people living inthe Basque country, Pais Vasco, and self-identifying Basques from France and Spain)." And the other factor that distinguishes Basques from other populations is the much higher proportion of R1b-DF27. For some reason, people don't want to recognise it, but autosomal fits to El Portalon, y-DNA R1b-DF27 and speaking Basque appear to be closely associated with each other.

  2. #327
    Elite member epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779


    Country: Netherlands



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I was hoping for a proper refutation.
    And you got one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    Loschbour and Mal'ta are from tens of thousands of years beforehand;
    Loschbour is 6000 BC, as is Motala12. Ajvide is contemporaneous to ATP2. Check Fig 1 of the paper.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    their descendants and those of people related to them had dispersed all over the place by 3,400 BC, and have little to do with the degree of association between El Portalon and modern populations.
    Loschbour and Motala are closer in time to ATP2 than ATP2 is to Basques. Also, farmers were dispersed all over the place by 3400 BC as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    And despite the study concluding that "ATP2 groups exclusively with the Basque populations, all other ingroups are rejected", ATP2 is the pretty much the least Basque-associated of all the eight El Portalon samples (deriving predominantly from prior Neolithic Iberian admixture).
    It is also the best genome: 4.08 coverage, 0.1 contamination estimate, see Table 1. The rest is far worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    As the study identifies, the closest group on the Iberian Peninsula to the El Portalon cluster "are Basques (both people living inthe Basque country, Pais Vasco, and self-identifying Basques from France and Spain)." And the other factor that distinguishes Basques from other populations is the much higher proportion of R1b-DF27. For some reason, people don't want to recognise it, but autosomal fits to El Portalon, y-DNA R1b-DF27 and speaking Basque appear to be closely associated with each other.
    Your claim of ATP samples being "EHG heavy" is refuted in the paper itself, since Motala12, a sample with large EHG ancestry, is rejected as HG admixture in the ATP samples whereas the non-EHG admixted hunter-gatherers are feasible as HG-admixture in the ATP samples. That is what the Treemix model says, and in the Sup Info this is worked out with D-stats as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    There are 8 pre-Bronze Age samples from El Portalon - the first 2 (EHG-heavy) of which span an estimated period of 295 years. The newcomers clearly didn't die out without leaving any descendants, when their DNA was still thriving 295 years later.

  3. #328
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630


    Country: UK - England



    All this talk about Mal'ta, Loschbour & Motala12 is an irrelevant distraction from my post - which highlights the apparently clear association of Basques with both aDNA El Portalon and yDNA R1b-DF27.
    If you have any information to demonstrate that Basques are not heavily DF27 or do not have the heaviest El Portalon aDNA contribution, I would be interested to see it. All else has no bearing on the matter.
    Based on the data I have seen, it looks like El Portalon was most likely a population that spoke a language ancestral to Basque and that incorporated yDNA R1b-DF27 or ancestor of it.

  4. #329
    Elite member epoch's Avatar
    Join Date
    13-09-13
    Posts
    779


    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    All else has no bearing on the matter.
    It shows that your method fails.

  5. #330
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    It shows that your method fails.
    Thank you for your positive contribution, and all the insights you've given us on this issue.

  6. #331
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,499

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    All this talk about Mal'ta, Loschbour & Motala12 is an irrelevant distraction from my post - which highlights the apparently clear association of Basques with both aDNA El Portalon and yDNA R1b-DF27.
    If you have any information to demonstrate that Basques are not heavily DF27 or do not have the heaviest El Portalon aDNA contribution, I would be interested to see it. All else has no bearing on the matter.
    Based on the data I have seen, it looks like El Portalon was most likely a population that spoke a language ancestral to Basque and that incorporated yDNA R1b-DF27 or ancestor of it.
    Well the thing is, the obvious fact that Basque would be El Portalon and R1b-DF27 have source to the 100% y-dna replacement and 40% replacement with Eastern ancestry wich probably have increase following the centuries. It's not possible that only Basque in Iberia have El Portalon ancestry and not other Iberian groups.

    But what does it inform us about the original language of those Bell Beakers?

  7. #332
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630


    Country: UK - England



    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well the thing is, the obvious fact that Basque would be El Portalon and R1b-DF27 have source to the 100% y-dna replacement and 40% replacement with Eastern ancestry wich probably have increase following the centuries. It's not possible that only Basque in Iberia have El Portalon ancestry and not other Iberian groups.
    I agree. People in various parts of Spain have a mix of mainly Iberian Neolithic, El Portalon and Central European steppic aDNA. It's just that Basques are skewed more heavily towards El Portalon and DF27 than other Spaniards.

    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But what does it inform us about the original language of those Bell Beakers?
    I don't know. But it looks like the Iberian R1b newcomers would have been diverse enough to have spoken at least two different languages - a Basque-ancestral language and probably an Indo-European one.

    All I would suggest is that (i) Basque was probably either an Anatolian language introduced into El Portalon by the first small band of Balkan-ancestral part-R1b migrants, or the language of Iberian Neolithics adopted by these migrants; and (ii) other R1b newcomers to Iberia during the Bronze Age probably spoke a Steppe-ancestral Indo-European language.

Page 14 of 14 FirstFirst ... 4121314

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •