Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

[CrazyDonkey]

I don't agree there is no genetic data indicating that they successfully bred. Firstly, mixing Central European Bell Beaker with Iberian Neolithic does not give the optimal fit for Iberian Bronze Age - to improve on the fit, you need to factor in a proportion of El Portalon. Secondly, a very similar autosomal fit pops up in Vucedol, which I believe is most likely related to the older El Portalon samples - and this is what leans me to the hypothesis that some M269 ancestors of El Portalon and Vucedol migrated westwards from Bulgaria up the Danube (quite possibly, as you hypothesise, by boat). And if they did hitch a ride, they might well have done so in return for protection services.

Or by tour boat...

Sorry, but for the time, someone just rowboating up the Danube to Iberia is simple fantasy. Magic carpet would be more like it.

 

[Pip]

Hazardous to equate language and DNA. I doubt any M269-individual coming to Iberia c. 3,500 BCE was an IE speaker - it is just too early, unless he arrived via magic-carpet.

My instinct is that he and the people with whom he came most likely spoke a language ancestral to Basque.

 

[Pip]

Or by tour boat...

Sorry, but for the time, someone just rowboating up the Danube to Iberia is simple fantasy. Magic carpet would be more like it.

You're thinking of Arabia.

I don't see that sailing right across the Mediterranean, up the Iberian Atlantic coastline, then across the Bay of Biscay to North Central Spain is less fantastical than tracing the usual route up the River Danube.

 

[halfalp]

This is the same equation as previous... whatever the culture in question, there will not be any kind of R1b below L23 in Iberia ante-3000 BC. The original Chalcolithic Iberia is probably mostly EEF and none-IE, while R1b start to appear here and there. Remember, 100% of y-dna lineage but only 40% of ancestry. Wich virtually can make all BA Iberia Steppe Men with virtually a lot of dialects.

 

[halfalp]

Hazardous to equate language and DNA. I doubt any M269-individual coming to Iberia c. 3,500 BCE was an IE speaker - it is just too early, unless he arrived via magic-carpet.

Wich is basically what everybody is doing. Professionnals or Amateurs. If ones want to negate the idea to link DNA with Language, i dont know what's the interest in those studies for him.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Just wait until we get more Mesolithic-Neolithic data from the Zagros

 

[Pip]

I'm not talking about the possibilities of R1b going in Anatolia or the Middle-East previously of Steppe Cultures. I'm saying people are trying to make some weird Steppe -> Balkans -> Anatolia -> Balkans/South Caucasus -> IE languages -> Steppe again hypothesis to explain IE languages.

For nomadic people, there is nothing weird about moving around. They might have moved backwards and forwards every year as the seasons changed. And neither is there anything weird about picking up and speaking a language in the place where that language is spoken. What is a bit strange is the belief amongst many that the people with 'Steppe DNA' sat still on the Steppe for tens of thousands of millennia, with no one ever venturing out of it and spreading any of their DNA anywhere else. Of course, their DNA did leak out, and when it leaked out, it didn't always disappear without a trace like a water into the sand; it infused into the DNA of its descendants.

It should at the beginning be an alarm signal. The classic Anatolian and Steppe hypothesis both made sense for long years until genetic datas clearly had favorizing a Steppe origin. And Iberia Chalcolithic dont have to be related to IE peoples and Steppe at all. Did Vinca Copper extraction was related to R1b and Steppe? Probably Not.

None of these hypotheses make perfect sense. They are all just simplified models.

As far as Maciamo hypothesis, they were right with the datas we had about it. People already linked IE languages with R1b and R1a previously of Steppe Cultures dna in 2015, because of their modern predominance linked with IE languages. Problem is, at this time previously and circa-2010, people mostly used STR diversity to explain things i dont even understand, but i know they dont make sense with post-2015 prehistoric datas.

STR diversity still works fine, and the SNP diversity currently used by yfull is just another version of the same methodology. So long as there is sufficient data, the results should provide an accurate estimate; and the more data available, the more accurate the estimate will get. When people claim the answers it provides are unreliable, it is usually because either (i) they are not calculating it with sufficient sophistication, or (ii) they simply haven't found or published the samples yet to demonstrate its broad accuracy.

 

[Pip]

This is the same equation as previous... whatever the culture in question, there will not be any kind of R1b below L23 in Iberia ante-3000 BC.

I don't see how anyone could possibly know that. As L23 most likely started branching apart in the 5th millennium BC (or perhaps even earlier) and there were probably thousands (most likely tens of thousands) of L23 men alive before 3,000 BC, no one can reasonably claim to know where they were all located over the whole of each of their lives.

 

[halfalp]

I don't see how anyone could possibly know that. As L23 most likely started branching apart in the 5th millennium BC (or perhaps even earlier) and there were probably thousands (most likely tens of thousands) of L23 men alive before 3,000 BC, no one can reasonably claim to know where they were all located over the whole of each of their lives.

5th Millenium to branching apart, now take the night to calculate how many years it take for it and all variables to become dominant in the Pontic Steppe. It just start with 1 individual.

 

[halfalp]

Just wait until we get more Mesolithic-Neolithic data from the Zagros

Are you suggesting that M269 was in Mesolithic-Neolithic Zagros while L754 was years earlier in Northern Italy? Good Luck. Sounds like Iran is still a very internal topic about R1a-R1b nowadays... i wonder why...

 

[CrazyDonkey]

Wich is basically what everybody is doing. Professionnals or Amateurs. If ones want to negate the idea to link DNA with Language, i dont know what's the interest in those studies for him.

I'm just saying that just because much of "Yamnaya = R1b-M269" (but not all) doesn't mean that "R1b-M269 = IE". A pre-PIE offshoot, as Maciamo hypothesized, could have hitch-hiked a ride to Iberia with a bunch of J2s. Which language? A dead one.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Are you suggesting that M269 was in Mesolithic-Neolithic Zagros while L754 was years earlier in Northern Italy? Good Luck. Sounds like Iran is still a very internal topic about R1a-R1b nowadays... i wonder why...

L754 has nothing to do with it, however you'll be pleased to know about the known links of the Mesolithic Zagros to the Epigravettian. All that M269 diversity in the Middle East counts for something given almost all of it is Z2103 (i.e. if Z2103 didn't originate there, it points towards M269/L23 originating there as the diversity isn't from lots of different M269 branches moving in (as only Z2103 did)).

Ganj Dareh for example shares extra affinity with Yamnaya than CHG alone. You should check out adnaera.com

 

[halfalp]

L754 has nothing to do with it, however you'll be pleased to know about the known links of the Mesolithic Zagros to the Epigravettian. All that M269 diversity in the Middle East counts for something given almost all of it is Z2103 (i.e. if Z2103 didn't originate there, it points towards M269/L23 originating there as the diversity isn't from lots of different M269 branches moving in (as only Z2103 did)).

Ganj Dareh for example shares extra affinity with Yamnaya than CHG alone. You should check out adnaera.com

Yes because Iran_Neolithic in Yamnaya must absolutely to be link with R1b right? You are writing your own story, for your own bias. You could just say that and stop with the Diversity argument. Diversity made scientists believe in 2010 that R1b-M269 must have been absolutely linked with LBK expansion in Europe. Null. This concept is just flawed or made of vulgar mathematics.

Also, most of your claims are going beyond me with the logic you try to use. You keep talking about M269* and L23* in Armenia, about Diversity and make claims like L51 probably came from Anatolia or the Middle-East with Metallury, while L51 absolutely doesn't exist in the Middle-East or Anatolia.

If there is a M269* population at some point in Pontic Steppe who just happened to be related with the one who are going South of the Caucasus, your entire hypothesis gonna shipwrecked. Also Balkans and Samara Region have way more basal M269* and L23* than South Caucasus/Middle-East, once again this discussion about Basal clades, diversity is just flawed and is going nowhere ever.

 

[markod]

Could a group of M269 WHGs/EHGs have survived in some unlikely place in Europe before it got to the steppe? Mainland Italy maybe, or the Alps, Carpathians or what have you?

 

[halfalp]

If it survived somewhere, it probably was somwhere Near Balkans and Near Steppe, but without EEF. So let's just imagine what place we didn't really sample about Neolithic Europe. Albania, East Thrace, Crimea, in the Danubian Plain but not linked with Farmers? Bug-Dniester Culture or what about regional farming cultures like Dnieper Cucuteni-Trypillia? I cant really see much more than somwhere in Steppe. It's simple, if chalcolithic L23 and Z2103 came either from Farming Balkans, Chalcolithic Anatolia or Chalcolithic Armenia, we should see EEF, Anatolia_Chl and Armenia_Chl wich is obviously not the case. In the countrary, we see EHG in Areni-1 alongside Iran_Neo and Anatolia_Neo. Also the Maykop paper isn't really relevent, because the Anatolian ancestry here, is clearly linked with the recent Maykop or Meshoko-Darkveti introgression. I think it's still funny because Reich multiple times tried to say that the CHG in Steppe was in fact Iran_Neo, and with such a claim, you dont even need to found anything, because virtually all cultures of neolithic south caucasus could be the origin of it. A way to close a chapter in the urge. It's also funny that they didn't test ( Barros-Daamgard ) the Sidelkino man wich have enough genetic material to be tested for y-dna. Let's sell more articles.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Yes because Iran_Neolithic in Yamnaya must absolutely to be link with R1b right? You are writing your own story, for your own bias. You could just say that and stop with the Diversity argument. Diversity made scientists believe in 2010 that R1b-M269 must have been absolutely linked with LBK expansion in Europe. Null. This concept is just flawed or made of vulgar mathematics.

Also, most of your claims are going beyond me with the logic you try to use. You keep talking about M269* and L23* in Armenia, about Diversity and make claims like L51 probably came from Anatolia or the Middle-East with Metallury, while L51 absolutely doesn't exist in the Middle-East or Anatolia.

If there is a M269* population at some point in Pontic Steppe who just happened to be related with the one who are going South of the Caucasus, your entire hypothesis gonna shipwrecked. Also Balkans and Samara Region have way more basal M269* and L23* than South Caucasus/Middle-East, once again this discussion about Basal clades, diversity is just flawed and is going nowhere ever.

I know I talked about Z2103* in Armenia, and the logic stands but I think the Caucasus is just a mishmash of everything really and founder effects in such mountainous areas skews everything. There hasn't been any new evidence since then to make me change my mind, I just found a different way for copper metallurgy to reach the Steppe (via Central Asia).

Something brought copper metallurgy (and the extra CHG) to the Steppe and I can't see any other candidate than M269+. Forget cultural transmission, copper metallurgy has always spread via population movement as fas as I'm aware. I just moved from across the Caucasus to across the Caspian

 

[halfalp]

I know I talked about Z2103* in Armenia, and the logic stands but I think the Caucasus is just a mishmash of everything really and founder effects in such mountainous areas skews everything. There hasn't been any new evidence since then to make me change my mind, I just found a different way for copper metallurgy to reach the Steppe (via Central Asia).

Something brought copper metallurgy (and the extra CHG) to the Steppe and I can't see any other candidate than M269+. Forget cultural transmission, copper metallurgy has always spread via population movement as fas as I'm aware. I just moved from across the Caucasus to across the Caspian

This could be J1, J2b2, or even something else, but M269 doesn't make sense in terms of datas we already have. It's basically just shadow right now, and nothing is telling that extra CHG and early Chalcolithic in Steppe have to come together. This could be Chalcolithic Balkans, or Chalcolithic Armenia.

And most of R1b subclades seems to become Basal in modern Armenia, but there is some Basal R1a in modern Tunisia, do R1a likely come from ancient Tunisia? I start to believe that actually, were a subclade is Basal, is the less likely place where it originates. Dont have Africans way more Basal V88 than Sardinians? Wouldn't be the original spot of an haplogroup mostly never show Basal subclade because of constant replacement by younger clades?

 

[CrazyDonkey]

You're thinking of Arabia.

I don't see that sailing right across the Mediterranean, up the Iberian Atlantic coastline, then across the Bay of Biscay to North Central Spain is less fantastical than tracing the usual route up the River Danube.

Could have been and was done without much admixture along the way, hop-scotching via Crete -> Sicily -> Sardinia -> Iberia. The establishment of the Iberian "entrepots" has been theorized as part of the chalcolithic expansion in search of new sources for copper (with the Balkan copper mines being worked out). If M269 was a smith or prospector, he would have had special skills. Or he could have been a trader (establishing a "trading post"). While no copper mines from before 3,000 BCE have been found, that doesn't mean they didn't exist. If a trader/smith, he needn't have mined it, but could have traded finished tools for raw ore and other items.

Vila Nova de Sao Pedro was "ground-zero" for megalithism and is within reach of many copper and tin mines in western and northwestern Iberia. It is also on the way to Cornwall, where copper and tin mining became the likely source of wealth that paid for Stonehenge (from c. 3,100 BCE).

The idea of R1b originating in an ice-age "refuge" south of the Pyrenees has been disproved.

Immigration up the Danube (or across the Carpathians) is possible, but the Yamnaya CHG-component (Yamnaya = Khvalynsk + CHG) might not have been present in Sredny Stog or Suvorova, with their expansion that collapsed "Old Europe" and opened the lower Danube dating from c. 4,000 BCE. Yamnaya don't show up at the Dnieper Rapids until after the collapse of "Old Europe" - they could have been the force that shoved the Suvorova off the steppe. Any Suvorova leading-edge would have had to transit already settled lands (Global Amphora, for instance).

But (Iosif Lazaridis):

As we mentioned in Haak, Lazaridis et al. (2015), the Yamnaya are the best proximate source for the new ancestry that first appears with the Corded Ware in central Europe, as it has the right mix of both ANE (related to Native Americans, MA1, and EHG), but also Armenian/Caucasus/Iran-like southern component of ancestry. The Yamnaya is a westward expansive culture that bears exactly the two new ancestral components (EHG + Caucasus/Iran/Armenian-like).

https://indo-european.eu/2017/07/so...admixture-and-archaeologists-are-catching-up/

Which returns to a two-wave theory with the first wave of "newcomers" hitting Iberia, with assimilation, but then being overrun by a stronger second wave, with site-abandonment and population-replacement (of y-dna lineages), but not necessarily language-replacement.

 

[Pip]

5th Millenium to branching apart, now take the night to calculate how many years it take for it and all variables to become dominant in the Pontic Steppe.

An impossible thing to calculate. Potentially, a new L23 lineage could have been created every time a L23 man had sex, and thousands of new lineages could have arisen within a few hundred years.

 

[Pip]

I'm just saying that just because much of "Yamnaya = R1b-M269" (but not all) doesn't mean that "R1b-M269 = IE". A pre-PIE offshoot, as Maciamo hypothesized, could have hitch-hiked a ride to Iberia with a bunch of J2s. Which language? A dead one.

All ancient languages are dead. The question is from which language family.