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Thread: Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

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    a naive question:
    are these numbers concerning only the BB setllements or allover Iberia? Today Y-R1b in Iberia is between 50 and 60% in the most of the regions, not 100%. (it's true History kept on running on after LN-Chalco) - I doubt about this 100% Y-replacement whatever the geographical source(s) -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a naive question:
    are these numbers concerning only the BB setllements or allover Iberia? Today Y-R1b in Iberia is between 50 and 60% in the most of the regions, not 100%. (it's true History kept on running on after LN-Chalco) - I doubt about this 100% Y-replacement whatever the geographical source(s) -

    according to reich the populations "collapsed" into each other all over iberia. in his graph there is only r1b afterwards. at around 13:40

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Probably let's start with the most obvious. Why humans have weapons? You dont hunt a rabbit with an axe. I think the BB question happened also East in Kura-Araxes when late KA start to show R1b-V1636 instead of the previous G2b. Steppe people didn't necessarily spread with their own Steppe cultures, but appropriate themselves previous culture, for economical or prestige reasons. Wich reinforce the fact that they were expansionnists and materialists, for not saying mercantilists/capitalists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    according to reich those 40% are pure "eastern" ancestry. so if the incoming people were only 50% steppe the replacement would have been massive.
    We'll see when the paper comes out, Ailchu, but I heard him say "people with steppe ancestry". Plus, I don't think any one suggests these newcomers came directly from the steppes. They, like all the others, mixed as they moved through western Europe.


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    with Marcos's question it's not necessary to answer the others, to have such replacement in Iberia, let say 500000 males and 500000 females it would be necessary to massacre 500000 males including little children. Extended massacres, or genocides, are a modern case promoted by modern states, back into the history it's possible to find out lical massacres but no genocides. People like to think that what we have today was 2000 or 5000 years ago identical.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    what men from Central Europe if Reich is the unique providing such admixture in Bronze Age Iberia, and even there are here and there BB men without it? Even Romanized Germans carried cultural traits when they take the Roman empire, can you provide even a proof of Central European cultural trait in Iberian BB?
    You won't understand until you listen to the presentation and look at the graphs. They show what they show. It just remains to explain it.

    These are all the ancient samples from Iberia which have been found and published.





    @Ailchu,
    If you go to 19:52 in the talk you'll see that the newcomers to Iberia were 50% Central European farmer. Sorry about the prior post. I didn't see that you had amended what you said.

    As for the overlap, we're definitely going to have to wait for the final published paper, but it may be that it comes from areas where they hadn't yet arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    with Marcos's question it's not necessary to answer the others, to have such replacement in Iberia, let say 500000 males and 500000 females it would be necessary to massacre 500000 males including little children. Extended massacres, or genocides, are a modern case promoted by modern states, back into the history it's possible to find out lical massacres but no genocides. People like to think that what we have today was 2000 or 5000 years ago identical.
    The official definition of genocide calls it removing (be it by killing or deportation or driving out) a group with the intent to do so. By definition genocide would well predate modern day Earth regardless of noble savage myths.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    with Marcos's question it's not necessary to answer the others, to have such replacement in Iberia, let say 500000 males and 500000 females it would be necessary to massacre 500000 males including little children. Extended massacres, or genocides, are a modern case promoted by modern states, back into the history it's possible to find out lical massacres but no genocides. People like to think that what we have today was 2000 or 5000 years ago identical.
    No, women probably accepted the newcomers without too much concerning, while men regrouped and tried to counter the expansion with less military experience and weapons. This is basically what happened in South America with Spanish or Portuguese Conquistadores. There is a proverb who is saying ; Women are Crying while Men are Dying. That's a very sad scenario if you think about it, more sad that it could and do happen anywhere in the world even today in some countries. Iberia such as Britain Islands must have been well known for Metal extraction and smelting, smithing in the whole Europe with millenial trade roads and systems, it attract the attention of a particular type of people, greedy, warriory, a very Conquistador scenario if you think about it. Hard men with nothing wandering to found the Eldorado.

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    I forgot that the 500000 males assassinated it would be necessary a migration of 500000 R1b from Central Europe keeping their R1a bro's appart, getting before conquer Iberia the Iberian culture, and quitting before a chunk of steppe ancestry, and so on... sorry, I like science fiction but I hate it blended in real science

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    and then the R1b samples by 1500 BC are not showing trace of stepoe ancestry by being diluted!!! Jesus, many are fresh flesh for whichever cult sect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    and then the R1b samples by 1500 BC are not showing trace of stepoe ancestry by being diluted!!! Jesus, many are fresh flesh for whichever cult sect.
    Well it only needs 4 generations without steppe related peoples to dilute Steppe to almost none no? 1500BC is way more than 4 generations, 1000 years is like 40 generations if we assume 4 generations by centuries.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Interesting that pure steppe types turn up in Iberia and France. I didn't expect that. I wonder what route they've taken to get there.

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    This is my map of where my ancestors were 4,500 years ago.

    Rereading the news of last year what could happen is that a dozen men arrived for each woman. Perhaps the native population suffocated, it should not be a good environment to raise children if the continued stress that would suffer the population had to revertilo in defense. Posed to fantasize in the early days could be feasible the theft of women or even the delivery of women to the enemy in exchange for two minutes of peace.

    http://www.historiayarqueologia.com/...biaron-la.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Interesting that pure steppe types turn up in Iberia and France. I didn't expect that. I wonder what route they've taken to get there.
    Where are you seeing that, Markod?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Where are you seeing that, Markod?


    The abstract about BA France that was posted recently reported the same phenomenon IIRC.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Again, go to the original link, guys. There's a chart around 19 minutes in where he shows that the central European Bell Beaker people going into Spain were 50% Central Europe M/L Neolithic, and 50% steppe. That's the 40% I think.

    That's partly why Iberians today are only 20% "steppe", although as you can see from the yDna chart, there were also other newcomers arriving after the Beakers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Well it only needs 4 generations without steppe related peoples to dilute Steppe to almost none no? 1500BC is way more than 4 generations, 1000 years is like 40 generations if we assume 4 generations by centuries.
    if do you look at Reich - Olalde graph / map you will see some 40% eastern ancestry by 1500 BC (WTF was done with steppe ancestry????.......), if you check Martiniano and other papers by the same century steppe ancestry was diluted to zero... just in their samples. Maybe you find something suspicious in that? or yet everything is all right if it comes from Saint Reich?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Ailchu,
    If you go to 19:52 in the talk you'll see that the newcomers to Iberia were 50% Central European farmer. Sorry about the prior post. I didn't see that you had amended what you said.

    As for the overlap, we're definitely going to have to wait for the final published paper, but it may be that it comes from areas where they hadn't yet arrived.
    this graph made me think that this "eastern" ancestry is central european. that would make a bit more sense since iberians have 20% steppe in the same graphic. but at one point he says that this eastern ancestry is ultimately related to the steppe. that would be strange. i'll just wait for the paper.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    this graph made me think that this "eastern" ancestry is central european. that would make a bit more sense since iberians have 20% steppe in the same graphic. but at one point he says that this eastern ancestry is ultimately related to the steppe. that would be strange. i'll just wait for the paper.
    There seem to have been individuals with very high steppe ancestry in France as well. More steppe ancestry than CWC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post


    The abstract about BA France that was posted recently reported the same phenomenon IIRC.
    Ah, yes, now I remember. Thanks, Markod.

    Very much outliers, however. Who knows, maybe an exchange with groups further east?

    This is the graph to which I was referring. It's blurry, but I think you can make out that the Bell Beakers who go into Iberia are 50/50.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Ah, yes, now I remember. Thanks, Markod.

    Very much outliers, however. Who knows, maybe an exchange with groups further east?

    This is the graph to which I was referring. It's blurry, but I think you can make out that the Bell Beakers who go into Iberia are 50/50.

    [IMG][/IMG]
    yes, but the map says 50/50 in England
    wasn't that 90/10?

    I guess it depends on how you define 'steppe ancestry'

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a naive question:
    are these numbers concerning only the BB setllements or allover Iberia? Today Y-R1b in Iberia is between 50 and 60% in the most of the regions, not 100%. (it's true History kept on running on after LN-Chalco) - I doubt about this 100% Y-replacement whatever the geographical source(s) -
    That's also what I find weird about those results. There had to have been a really massive male-biased influxes from areas without much of the post-BA "West European" R1b subclades, with lots of J2a, E1b1b, I2 and even G2a to explain how modern Iberia has "only" 50-60% of R1b. It would've been a second major overturn of the Y-DNA distribution in the península. By the way, the Celtic and of course the Romance languages certainly date to after the Late Bronze Age in Iberia, so they probably implied population movements from Western Europe, not quite explaining most of the non-R1b chunk of the paternal lineages. Did something really decisive happen between the Middle BA and the Early IA stages?

    Though I don't doubt the capacity for cruelty in ancient societies, the 100% replacement also strikes me as quite unlikely in a region as large and geographically varied as Iberia. It'd be no small "feat" even for modern states with advanced methods of slaughtering people, now just imagine for a BA migrant populaton that was a minority of the total population (or should we instead assume it was actually a huge immigration wave of mostly males?). For smaller regions I could accept that easily, but somehow I still doubt that the incoming steppe-enriched males would've managed to wipe all the males out in every corner of Iberia without any eventual mutual acculturation and assimilation. To affirm that based on some samples (how many? A few dozens from each period?) is really bold.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I forgot that the 500000 males assassinated it would be necessary a migration of 500000 R1b from Central Europe keeping their R1a bro's appart, getting before conquer Iberia the Iberian culture, and quitting before a chunk of steppe ancestry, and so on... sorry, I like science fiction but I hate it blended in real science
    None of that makes sense (who told you that the replacement happened in the beginning of the BB cultural phenomenon, not centuries later when it had already spread to other cultures and peoples? A people is not defined solely by a certain type of pottery). Particularly your numbers are really off. What makes you think that to have a 100% replacement you need to have the same number of incoming males that the previous male population had? 100,000 men can impregnate 500,000 women just as much as 500,000 men. It's not like, quantitatively, males are as necessary as females to guarantee the reproduction of society. Also, we don't know if the post-replacement population was as large as the pre-replacement one.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    if do you look at Reich - Olalde graph / map you will see some 40% eastern ancestry by 1500 BC (WTF was done with steppe ancestry????.......), if you check Martiniano and other papers by the same century steppe ancestry was diluted to zero... just in their samples. Maybe you find something suspicious in that? or yet everything is all right if it comes from Saint Reich?
    Well, Martiniano paper is about Portugal, while Olalde is about Spain??? I think you are overlapping too much the world. Culture, Language, Lineage and Ancestry are all individually evolving with Regionalisation of the process. You dont need R1b to have an Indo-Europeanization ( c.f. rich R1a peoples ) and you dont need Indo-European languages to have R1b ( c.f. Basque ). You dismiss all probable interactions that happened day by day in Iberia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's also what I find weird about those results. There had to have been a really massive male-biased influxes from areas without much of the post-BA "West European" R1b subclades, with lots of J2a, E1b1b, I2 and even G2a to explain how modern Iberia has "only" 50-60% of R1b. It would've been a second major overturn of the Y-DNA distribution in the península. By the way, the Celtic and of course the Romance languages certainly date to after the Late Bronze Age in Iberia, so they probably implied population movements from Western Europe, not quite explaining most of the non-R1b chunk of the paternal lineages. Did something really decisive happen between the Middle BA and the Early IA stages?

    Though I don't doubt the capacity for cruelty in ancient societies, the 100% replacement also strikes me as quite unlikely in a region as large and geographically varied as Iberia. It'd be no small "feat" even for modern states with advanced methods of slaughtering people, now just imagine for a BA migrant populaton that was a minority of the total population (or should we instead assume it was actually a huge immigration wave of mostly males?). For smaller regions I could accept that easily, but somehow I still doubt that the incoming steppe-enriched males would've managed to wipe all the males out in every corner of Iberia without any eventual mutual acculturation and assimilation. To affirm that based on some samples (how many? A few dozens from each period?) is really bold.
    Also keep in mind that countrary to other parts of Europe, Iberia never was completely Indo-Europeanized. Wich actually makes the 60% of R1b a pretty huge factor.

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