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Thread: Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

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    ^^

    Spain was never completely Indo European, perhaps a few percent was Afro-European, mainly Euro-Maghreb some sub-Saharan euro welcome . Once in Europe and mixed, the mixture of Iberia as well as that of Germany or any other country in Europe is as European.


    I only know that the tall man in the video was speaking his voice, he seemed nervous and spoke quickly.

    I wonder why he was so nervous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's also what I find weird about those results. There had to have been a really massive male-biased influxes from areas without much of the post-BA "West European" R1b subclades, with lots of J2a, E1b1b, I2 and even G2a to explain how modern Iberia has "only" 50-60% of R1b. It would've been a second major overturn of the Y-DNA distribution in the península. By the way, the Celtic and of course the Romance languages certainly date to after the Late Bronze Age in Iberia, so they probably implied population movements from Western Europe, not quite explaining most of the non-R1b chunk of the paternal lineages. Did something really decisive happen between the Middle BA and the Early IA stages?

    Though I don't doubt the capacity for cruelty in ancient societies, the 100% replacement also strikes me as quite unlikely in a region as large and geographically varied as Iberia. It'd be no small "feat" even for modern states with advanced methods of slaughtering people, now just imagine for a BA migrant populaton that was a minority of the total population (or should we instead assume it was actually a huge immigration wave of mostly males?). For smaller regions I could accept that easily, but somehow I still doubt that the incoming steppe-enriched males would've managed to wipe all the males out in every corner of Iberia without any eventual mutual acculturation and assimilation. To affirm that based on some samples (how many? A few dozens from each period?) is really bold.
    I have the same feeling than both of you, something is not right. There's too many farmer haplogroups in today's Iberia for them to have come back en masse later. Maybe the R1b men were buried differently than the other so we only find them; maybe the farmers were peasant with little wealth and R1b were the landlord (a bit like Normans in England or Frank in western Europe)...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moi-même View Post
    I have the same feeling than both of you, something is not right. There's too many farmer haplogroups in today's Iberia for them to have come back en masse later. Maybe the R1b men were buried differently than the other so we only find them; maybe the farmers were peasant with little wealth and R1b were the landlord (a bit like Normans in England or Frank in western Europe)...
    or maybe these 'farmer haplogroups' were not farmers, but late bronze age and iron age arrivals from over the Meditteranean
    starting 4 ka with La Bastida and El Argar

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    There seem to have been individuals with very high steppe ancestry in France as well. More steppe ancestry than CWC.
    but if it was steppe ancestry in the plot we would only go from 50% down to 40% if we assume that the migrants were 50/50 central europeans. that wouldn't be a 40% replacement but 80%. i think reich mght have been a bit confused about the "eastern ancestry" here a little bit and said that eastern ancestry is related to the steppe while it's central european admixture with steppe. or he just didn't want to explain the details there and for him "related to steppe" means it contains steppe ancestry among other things.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, but the map says 50/50 in England
    wasn't that 90/10?

    I guess it depends on how you define 'steppe ancestry'
    The Bell Beakers who went to Britain were 50% steppe and 50% M/L European Neolithic.

    However, the population "in" Britain after the migration was 90% Beaker and 10% local Neolithic.

    Reich, in particular, sort of talks in short hand and it can cause confusion. I think that's partly what caused the controversy that surfaced in the New York Times article. He shouldn't assume everyone is up on all the papers they've put out and what it all means. He should be more careful and explain in what he probably thinks is self-evident and tedious detail. Sometimes the most brilliant researchers are not always the best communicators.

    In this case, he has himself pointed out that there was one "pure" North African ancient sample. I doubt it was R1b. I think some form of "E" was probably present in Iberia pre-the Iron Age, but we don't know how much. The ancient Sardinian like I2a which we know is present in Iberia is extremely unlikely to be a newcomer. It's more likely, perhaps, that Reich means "replacement" of the y over much of Iberia, rather than every nook and cranny.

    Some of the J2a, like the J2a in Italy, may be movement from the east. There's La Bastida to consider. If E-V13 was spread by the Greeks we're talking Iron Age. Again, if the Phoenician and later Carthaginian presence in Iberia was larger than thought, that would explain some more J2a and "E" clades, and then, of course, there's the Muslim invasion and occupation.

    I also think it's interesting that in the graph the more steppe heavy newcomers to Iberia are mostly women. We've seen indications of women being moved around before, some sort of ancient "mail order" bride system from ancestral areas.


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    I have been playing with nMonte a bit, and unless I am mistaken in my interpretations the surprise is that British Beakers seem to have an extra amount of Steppe when compared to Central European Beakers. Those two BB pops being only two to three generations apart, maybe the British BB spent less time in Central Europe and headed west before they admixed much with people there. (?)

    Also, they do not seem to have been in much of a hurry to mix with locals.

    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    None of that makes sense (who told you that the replacement happened in the beginning of the BB cultural phenomenon, not centuries later when it had already spread to other cultures and peoples? A people is not defined solely by a certain type of pottery). Particularly your numbers are really off. What makes you think that to have a 100% replacement you need to have the same number of incoming males that the previous male population had? 100,000 men can impregnate 500,000 women just as much as 500,000 men. It's not like, quantitatively, males are as necessary as females to guarantee the reproduction of society. Also, we don't know if the post-replacement population was as large as the pre-replacement one.
    We also don't know how large the pre-replacement population was. It might have been reduced due to drought, famine, plague, warfare, exile/emigration, etc. The largest towns were around 1,000 inhabitants, and there were only a couple handful of those - these were nothing like the Cucuteni cities of 100,000+ that collapsed and dispersed. That some had large cemetery "enclosures" doesn't mean they had large populations. Remember that the impetus for the neolithic expansion into Iberia was mining/metallurgy, from the Aegean, and only secondarily farming.
    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    - the tombs we haveare the winners ones (for the males at least), the new elites, aseverytime in lands raided by clannic barbarians of nomadic origin(even far origin sometimes) -
    - I don’t buy theykilled all the defeated males ; a great number, I suppose, but Ithink some of them were ket as « castrated » slaves, someof them retreated in unaccessible zones as often – at those times Isuppose lands were less peopled and genocides as we have known laterwere not so easy ; I don’t dream people were better « souled »than today...
    - the Dutch andBritish BB (if this naming is correct) are very homogenous, and themost « stepped ». The German and Czech and Polish onesare a bit more mixed, the Swiss, French and Hungarian ones even moremixed with clear southern ties (not only, SE too), and Spanish onesare more southern than northern or central - Davidski interpretsthat as a proof of the purity of the Dutch and British ones :not sure concerning culture. Rather the contrary in my mind :Iberia show some BB’s very close to the homogenous enough means ofN-W Europe, some ones in between, and more numerous ones« autochtones » to Iberia ; I think the few steppicenough of Iberia are newcomers capting the most of the aspects of BBculture of W-Iberia, giving birth to even less steppic newgenerations spite more steppic than the genuine BB’s (autosomally)-
    - The question ofY-R1b-L51 is not resolved – but I don’t figure out steppicfemales learning BB pottery and Cy and delivering them in North afterreturn : rather males : so the Y-R1b-L51 and downstreamSNP’s of ancient Iberia were rather (in my view) with males comefrom North (of Iberia, not by force from Scandinavia!), overruningpost-megalithic culture men of Iberia.
    I know there isnothing scientific ‘per se’ or very new in my post, but it’s myway to see the current results. We may not put facts to say more thanthey can, what some people do sometime.

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    it is very strange, that this complete turnover of Y-DNA in Iberia, which seems to have started ca 4.5 ka and was completed ca 3.8 ka didn't leave any particular archeological traces

    you'd expect these overwhelming newcomers would have a completely different lifestyle

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    1 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    None of that makes sense (who told you that the replacement happened in the beginning of the BB cultural phenomenon, not centuries later when it had already spread to other cultures and peoples? A people is not defined solely by a certain type of pottery). Particularly your numbers are really off. What makes you think that to have a 100% replacement you need to have the same number of incoming males that the previous male population had? 100,000 men can impregnate 500,000 women just as much as 500,000 men. It's not like, quantitatively, males are as necessary as females to guarantee the reproduction of society. Also, we don't know if the post-replacement population was as large as the pre-replacement one.
    Sorry, but I can't deal more with cult members and alike, I have the conclusion that you are not capable to have own thinkings, I can't discuss under such conditions:

    - hocus-pocus, from underpopulated steppe, R1b-Z2103 conquers Central Europe, but changing it's Y-DNA to R1a, fine
    - hocus-pocus, an Iberian culture (BB) is taken in Central Europe without autosomal effect, fine... but it expands back as R1b-L51 instead of R1a, and losing all previous cultural steppe traits by the way, fine.
    - hocus-pocus, a 40% steppe or eastern component in Iberia needs to kill all male population (500000? 1000000?) to be replaced by 500000 or 100000 R1b machos coming without women (long trek...), fine.
    - hocus-pocus, BA admixture graphs don't display any steppe component, it was lost by continuous dilution, fine.

    as you and people alike can swallow all it, I only have the alternative to scare you, maybe you can wake up:

    1. go to https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...35962.full.pdf
    2. go to extended data figure 1, admixture graph b (K=8)
    3. look at Yamnaya, CWC, and Central Europe BB, check their CHG share, everything is all right?
    4. look now at the Iberian side of the Beaker Complex (also a French BB), can't find that CHG?
    5. ask then to yourself:
    a) this only can be explained as Iberian BB were not coming from Central Europe?
    b) this only can be explained as Central Europe R1b machos had a very hard gooooood time with Iberian brunettes that extracted their CHG?

    com'on start to think by yourselves.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    but if it was steppe ancestry in the plot we would only go from 50% down to 40% if we assume that the migrants were 50/50 central europeans. that wouldn't be a 40% replacement but 80%. i think reich mght have been a bit confused about the "eastern ancestry" here a little bit and said that eastern ancestry is related to the steppe while it's central european admixture with steppe. or he just didn't want to explain the details there and for him "related to steppe" means it contains steppe ancestry among other things.
    We have reports of pure Yamnayans in far Western Europe from two independent sources now. That can't be a coincidence.

    Not that I have a good explanation for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The Bell Beakers who went to Britain were 50% steppe and 50% M/L European Neolithic.

    However, the population "in" Britain after the migration was 90% Beaker and 10% local Neolithic.

    Reich, in particular, sort of talks in short hand and it can cause confusion. I think that's partly what caused the controversy that surfaced in the New York Times article. He shouldn't assume everyone is up on all the papers they've put out and what it all means. He should be more careful and explain in what he probably thinks is self-evident and tedious detail. Sometimes the most brilliant researchers are not always the best communicators.

    In this case, he has himself pointed out that there was one "pure" North African ancient sample. I doubt it was R1b. I think some form of "E" was probably present in Iberia pre-the Iron Age, but we don't know how much. The ancient Sardinian like I2a which we know is present in Iberia is extremely unlikely to be a newcomer. It's more likely, perhaps, that Reich means "replacement" of the y over much of Iberia, rather than every nook and cranny.

    Some of the J2a, like the J2a in Italy, may be movement from the east. There's La Bastida to consider. If E-V13 was spread by the Greeks we're talking Iron Age. Again, if the Phoenician and later Carthaginian presence in Iberia was larger than thought, that would explain some more J2a and "E" clades, and then, of course, there's the Muslim invasion and occupation.

    I also think it's interesting that in the graph the more steppe heavy newcomers to Iberia are mostly women. We've seen indications of women being moved around before, some sort of ancient "mail order" bride system from ancestral areas.
    so, BB has in average 50 % steppe, but it's fluctuating between 25 % and 100 %, if I understand correct

    it seems to me that these people sweaped through Europe, from the steppe into Iberia in just a few (2-3) generations



    the replacement in Iberia happened 4.5-3.8 ka

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have reports of pure Yamnayans in far Western Europe from two independent sources now. That can't be a coincidence.

    Not that I have a good explanation for it.
    Where did you see this? I created an account literally just for this - I usually just lurk on all these forums only posting on Eurogenes - but that is just so unexpected.

    Are you sure it isn't referring to pure Central European Beaker folk? Pure Yamnayans is crazy! That sounds like Suvorovo perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    or maybe these 'farmer haplogroups' were not farmers, but late bronze age and iron age arrivals from over the Meditteranean
    starting 4 ka with La Bastida and El Argar
    That should be easy to test. Are the non-R1b haplogroup subclades of Iberia more related to or even descended from those in the East Mediterranean and in North Africa than to those in most of Europe? If the 40-50% of non-R1b haplogroups came from elsewhere after the EBA, and presumably not Western Europe (or if they did then the male replacement was really huge in the MLBA or IA), then those Iberian clades will not cluster phylogenetically with those in France, Italy or Switzerland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Sorry, but I can't deal more with cult members and alike, I have the conclusion that you are not capable to have own thinkings, I can't discuss under such conditions:

    - hocus-pocus, from underpopulated steppe, R1b-Z2103 conquers Central Europe, but changing it's Y-DNA to R1a, fine
    - hocus-pocus, an Iberian culture (BB) is taken in Central Europe without autosomal effect, fine... but it expands back as R1b-L51 instead of R1a, and losing all previous cultural steppe traits by the way, fine.
    - hocus-pocus, a 40% steppe or eastern component in Iberia needs to kill all male population (500000? 1000000?) to be replaced by 500000 or 100000 R1b machos coming without women (long trek...), fine.
    - hocus-pocus, BA admixture graphs don't display any steppe component, it was lost by continuous dilution, fine.

    as you and people alike can swallow all it, I only have the alternative to scare you, maybe you can wake up:

    1. go to https://www.biorxiv.org/content/earl...35962.full.pdf
    2. go to extended data figure 1, admixture graph b (K=8)
    3. look at Yamnaya, CWC, and Central Europe BB, check their CHG share, everything is all right?
    4. look now at the Iberian side of the Beaker Complex (also a French BB), can't find that CHG?
    5. ask then to yourself:
    a) this only can be explained as Iberian BB were not coming from Central Europe?
    b) this only can be explained as Central Europe R1b machos had a very hard gooooood time with Iberian brunettes that extracted their CHG?

    com'on start to think by yourselves.
    You will get an infraction next time you gratuitously say any member of this forum is incapable of having their own thoughts, using your broken English, because he or she cannot agree with your obsessive pet theory (you apparently only discuss about that same topic in this forum, and you still dare to say other people are cukt menbers - some projection going on there, huh?). For now you will be rightfully the first person I will willfully ignore here. I do not like this self-righteous arrogance when you, I and everyone else are just amateues accompanying a science that is still very recent and full of holes (obviously).

    You are the one member with more cultish sectarian behavior in this theead, and the oversimplified and clearly distorted interpretation of history and the data won't help you, either (you also seem to still think that a Y-DNA haplogroup is a people and also a cukture, and vice-versa, so of course your conclusions based on those premises will be biased).

    But please do you really think we are talking about the origin of Iberian BB? Man, you sound confused. Not even the dating of the supposed replacement fits that. Nobody us claiming that Iberian BB came from Central Europe, but that CE BB-detived people entered Iberia later. And there are data, it is not just a speculation. You just have to interpret the data and e plain them. But the fact is there.

    Quit that disparaging behavior now. People are not forced to think like you in order to be respected. You won't persuade anyone acting like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    or maybe these 'farmer haplogroups' were not farmers, but late bronze age and iron age arrivals from over the Meditteranean
    starting 4 ka with La Bastida and El Argar
    samples from El Argar culture are R1b also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We have reports of pure Yamnayans in far Western Europe from two independent sources now. That can't be a coincidence.

    Not that I have a good explanation for it.
    I am unable to message you privately, but PLEASE explain where you saw this! I have seen you post it multiple times but I don't know where your evidence is. I have also only seen you post it, so maybe you are playing around, but this is just so important that it needs sources. Can you imagine the hierarchies at work for there to be "pure" Yamnayans (or people with Yamnaya-like ancestry) in Western Europe!!! I am reminded of the Copper Age sample ATP3, which was low-ish resolution but was over half Yamnaya and had Y DNA R1b-M269 and mtDNA K1a2b (both the main lineages of the Bell Beaker people).

    When does this Yamnaya-French sample date to? Was it CA or BA?

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mjölnir View Post
    Where did you see this? I created an account literally just for this - I usually just lurk on all these forums only posting on Eurogenes - but that is just so unexpected.

    Are you sure it isn't referring to pure Central European Beaker folk? Pure Yamnayans is crazy! That sounds like Suvorovo perhaps?
    We know this about Brunel's upcoming thesis:


    “They have a good hundred samples from the North, Alsace and the Mediterranean coast, from the Mesolithic to the Iron Age.

    At the bronze age, they have 5 samples with autosomal DNA, all in Bell Beaker archaeological context, which are very spread on the PCA. A very high sample close to the Yamnaya, a little above the Corded Ware, two samples right in the Central European Bell Beakers, a fairly low just above the Neolithic package, and one last full in the package. The most salient point was that the Y chromosomes of their 12 Bronze Age samples (all bell beaker) are all R1b, whereas there was no R1b in the Neolithic samples. ”
    This is Bernard’s comment:
    – French Bell Beakersare derived from a genetic mixture between a steppe population (sample located with Yamnaya in the PCA) and a local Neolithic population (sample located with Neolithic farmers)
    – The steppe population comes directly from the steppes (and not from Central Europe) otherwise we would not have a Bell Beaker sample that is located with the Yamnaya. So the Bell Beaker culture is not an emanation of the Corded Ware culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We know this about Brunel's upcoming thesis:


    “They have a good hundred samples from the North, Alsace and the Mediterranean coast, from the Mesolithic to the Iron Age.

    At the bronze age, they have 5 samples with autosomal DNA, all in Bell Beaker archaeological context, which are very spread on the PCA. A very high sample close to the Yamnaya, a little above the Corded Ware, two samples right in the Central European Bell Beakers, a fairly low just above the Neolithic package, and one last full in the package. The most salient point was that the Y chromosomes of their 12 Bronze Age samples (all bell beaker) are all R1b, whereas there was no R1b in the Neolithic samples. ”
    This is Bernard’s comment:
    – French Bell Beakersare derived from a genetic mixture between a steppe population (sample located with Yamnaya in the PCA) and a local Neolithic population (sample located with Neolithic farmers)
    – The steppe population comes directly from the steppes (and not from Central Europe) otherwise we would not have a Bell Beaker sample that is located with the Yamnaya. So the Bell Beaker culture is not an emanation of the Corded Ware culture.
    Holy $$$$ that might end the Bell Beaker debate forever. If one sample had more Steppe than Corded Ware AND was R1b-L51 (if it's a female people will rightly speculate about her being of Hungarian Yamnaya origin), that's game over for the idea of R1b-L51 picking up Steppe from either CWC or Yamnaya.

    HOWEVER, given what we know about the Bell Beaker pulse to Csepel Island, if this sample was female (or a male without R1b-L51), it could be of Hungarian Yamnaya rather than Bell Beaker origin - and that might give evidence for R1b-L51 Bell Beakers picking up all of its, or extra, Steppe (and presumably IE) from Hungarian Yamnaya

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    We know this about Brunel's upcoming thesis:


    “They have a good hundred samples from the North, Alsace and the Mediterranean coast, from the Mesolithic to the Iron Age.

    At the bronze age, they have 5 samples with autosomal DNA, all in Bell Beaker archaeological context, which are very spread on the PCA. A very high sample close to the Yamnaya, a little above the Corded Ware, two samples right in the Central European Bell Beakers, a fairly low just above the Neolithic package, and one last full in the package. The most salient point was that the Y chromosomes of their 12 Bronze Age samples (all bell beaker) are all R1b, whereas there was no R1b in the Neolithic samples. ”
    This is Bernard’s comment:
    – French Bell Beakersare derived from a genetic mixture between a steppe population (sample located with Yamnaya in the PCA) and a local Neolithic population (sample located with Neolithic farmers)
    – The steppe population comes directly from the steppes (and not from Central Europe) otherwise we would not have a Bell Beaker sample that is located with the Yamnaya. So the Bell Beaker culture is not an emanation of the Corded Ware culture.
    That will strongly disagree with the present hypothesis of Eurogenes about Central European BB deriving from a branch of the "Dutch" Single Grave Culture and ultimately more related to CWC than to Yamnaya. Is it theoretically possible that a CWC-derived sample would plot very close to Yamnaya even as late as the BB period?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That will strongly disagree with the present hypothesis of Eurogenes about Central European BB deriving from a branch of the "Dutch" Single Grave Culture and ultimately more related to CWC than to Yamnaya. Is it theoretically possible that a CWC-derived sample would plot very close to Yamnaya even as late as the BB period?
    Not sure what the hypothesis is exactly, but I think CWC -> Beaker doesn't make much sense. Old Beaker samples from Germany, France and Switzerland are missing. Those probably gave rise to the Dutch Beakers.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    so, BB has in average 50 % steppe, but it's fluctuating between 25 % and 100 %, if I understand correct

    it seems to me that these people sweaped through Europe, from the steppe into Iberia in just a few (2-3) generations



    the replacement in Iberia happened 4.5-3.8 ka
    I think this is good for actually "seeing" it. The majority who went to Iberia were already less than 50% steppe. It must have been a pretty male skewed group. The percent of the population that was almost "pure" steppe pulled up the average.

    I don't know if this was exactly the situation for the group which went to Britain.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I don't know. This doesn't seem to me to indicate the Reich group thinks Bell Beaker derives from Corded Ware.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't know. This doesn't seem to me to indicate the Reich group thinks Bell Beaker derives from Corded Ware.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    Neither do I. I think CWC and BB derive from autosomally similar pops from (neighboring) areas somewhere in the northern open steppe, but pops with different paternal haplos.

    That's why the stats overlap. Same autosomal profile, but different tribes, and periods of movement centuries apart.

    I have tried things with Yamnaya Bulgaria, and Yamnaya Ukraine instead of Samara. The fit results are calamitous.

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