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Thread: Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

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    Given the microscopic attention to yDna for Italy, I find it very surprising that the papers on Iberian dna are so old that they still use old nomenclature. I'm talking about Flores 2004 and Adams 2008. I don't see anything after that.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^That won't fly. 60% of the genetics of people on the Iberian peninsula is from the Middle/Late Neolithic farmers, so the women survived. Only the men were largely wiped out.
    I'm not sure. I suspect the Iberian females might also have been largely wiped out, with the surviving females in Iberia being mainly of non-Iberian Neolithic farmer origin.

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    It is possible that there was an emigration to North Africa, there was no other place to take refuge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    - the Dutch andBritish BB (if this naming is correct) are very homogenous, and themost « stepped ». The German and Czech and Polish onesare a bit more mixed, the Swiss, French and Hungarian ones even moremixed with clear southern ties (not only, SE too), and Spanish onesare more southern than northern or central - Davidski interpretsthat as a proof of the purity of the Dutch and British ones :not sure concerning culture. Rather the contrary in my mind.
    Yes, the contrary. Dutch and British Bell Beakers were more steppic, because they admixed with more-heavily steppic Corded Ware populations. Central European Beakers are purer Beaker, as they replaced more-heavily steppic groups, rather than mixing with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I'm not sure. I suspect the Iberian females might also have been largely wiped out, with the surviving females in Iberia being mainly of non-Iberian Neolithic farmer origin.
    The high levels of mtDna H1 are far too old for that.

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    It seems that it is difficult to give an answer that clarifies the subject. It's hard, ufff

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    how much Y-DNA from El Argar do we have?
    IIRC 4-5 samples
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    You will get an infraction next time you gratuitously say any member of this forum is incapable of having their own thoughts, using your broken English, because he or she cannot agree with your obsessive pet theory (you apparently only discuss about that same topic in this forum, and you still dare to say other people are cukt menbers - some projection going on there, huh?). For now you will be rightfully the first person I will willfully ignore here. I do not like this self-righteous arrogance when you, I and everyone else are just amateues accompanying a science that is still very recent and full of holes (obviously).

    You are the one member with more cultish sectarian behavior in this theead, and the oversimplified and clearly distorted interpretation of history and the data won't help you, either (you also seem to still think that a Y-DNA haplogroup is a people and also a cukture, and vice-versa, so of course your conclusions based on those premises will be biased).

    But please do you really think we are talking about the origin of Iberian BB? Man, you sound confused. Not even the dating of the supposed replacement fits that. Nobody us claiming that Iberian BB came from Central Europe, but that CE BB-detived people entered Iberia later. And there are data, it is not just a speculation. You just have to interpret the data and e plain them. But the fact is there.

    Quit that disparaging behavior now. People are not forced to think like you in order to be respected. You won't persuade anyone acting like that.
    well, as thought it will be always boring: so I'm so and so, and bla bla bla... but at least have you tried to follow the instructions provided to open your eyes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Given the microscopic attention to yDna for Italy, I find it very surprising that the papers on Iberian dna are so old that they still use old nomenclature. I'm talking about Flores 2004 and Adams 2008. I don't see anything after that.



    From Maciamo:


    What irks me is that apparently no one knows for sure (based on the studies available) what are the dominant clades of J2, G2, I2, T and so on in Iberia, so it is really hard to just speculate whether they are native Neolithic European or later arrivals from North Africa and West Asia. Also, if they were, shouldn't present Iberians have much more Southwest Asian + North African + West Asian combined ancestry and be more shifted toward the East Mediterranean than they are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    well, as thought it will be always boring: so I'm so and so, and bla bla bla... but at least have you tried to follow the instructions provided to open your eyes?
    Yes, and I still disagree with you and think you are confused even about what is at stake in this discussion, which is not the origin of the BB pottery and cultural phenomenon in the early 3th millennium BC Iberia. And you still keep thinking simplistically on the premise that language, material culture and Y-DNA haplogroups are all the same thing, and that a cultural or linguistic horizon has only one haplogroup each. You analysis is also completely "Iberocentric" (and of course I am supposed to believe ther is nothing personal or national about your position, right? Yes, of course, lol). You also resort to cult-ish conspiracy theories about how scientists are all trying to distort the data to not acknowledge your pet theory.

    It is funny that you think that what you constantly do here, which is telling people what they are and judging their capabilities by what they think (obviously only when and if they do not agree with you), is considered boring by you yourself. Look at yourself, man.

    Oh, and get your well deserved infraction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    What irks me is that apparently no one knows for sure (based on the studies available) what are the dominant clades of J2, G2, I2, T and so on in Iberia, so it is really hard to just speculate whether they are native Neolithic European or later arrivals from North Africa and West Asia. Also, if they were, shouldn't present Iberians have much more Southwest Asian + North African + West Asian combined ancestry and be more shifted toward the East Mediterranean than they are?
    There's a significant frequency of E-V13 - I think most Iberian E1b1b is. I think the inevitable conclusion is that metal age Balkanic invaders reached Iberia at one point (peak in Extremadura along with J2, and in Galicia), presumably after the great R1b turnover.

    The clade of G would be interesting.

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    If Western BB's were primarly 50/50 Steppe and Central Neolithic, but their Society were mostly wandering Men with a very fast migration ( horses or boats ). Then we can already assume for sure that BB's were not directly from Steppe, but originally from, at least on the y-dna side. Wich means we are looking for a pre 3000 KA migration into Balkans by the Danube or into Poland in CWC territory from the Dniester or the Bug. We already knows from Datas that R1b-P312 had a big range from Central Europe to British Islands and Iberia. Not sure why some people want it to come from Iberia when we already have this huge sampling datas from the East. Is R1b-P312 supposed to have been a little minority in Catalonia then had a phone call from ancient related Yamnayans that it was time for them to expand? I think Chronology is extremely important in a post-Neolithic contexte, people start to expand in a very fast paste, Mongols controled a territory of millions of km2 in only 50 years. Wich can confused local sampling results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    There's a significant frequency of E-V13 - I think most Iberian E1b1b is. I think the inevitable conclusion is that metal age Balkanic invaders reached Iberia at one point (peak in Extremadura along with J2, and in Galicia), presumably after the great R1b turnover.

    The clade of G would be interesting.
    Interesting, especially considering that linguistically there was nothing clearly "Balkanic" in Iron Age Iberia when the Romans arrived there. I was in doubt whether th E1b1b in Iberia was mor M78 or M81 or then more "European" V13. Didn't El Argar happen roughly at the same time as the R1b turnover between 4500 and 3800 ya (but most of it looks to have been around 4000 ya)? However it was not just about R1b, but also about a huge increase in the so called eastern ancestry, so we still need to find some big movement in the MLBA or early IA accounting for most of that change, particularly because the other haplogroups that became prominent did not seem to have been major haplos in the Neolithic, like J2a and E1b1b.

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    I'm not convinced about the total remplacement. It could be that more Neolithic people took refuge in the Pyrenees and in the mountains of SE Iberia (Valencia, Murcia, Aspujaras of Andalusia), possibly Northern Morocco too, while the Iberian language is actually suspected to have emerged around SE Iberia, it could be there was a re-emergence of Neolithic people in the late Bronze Age, alongside a large increase of non-R1b yDNA. Of course there were later Eastern Mediterranean and North African, Iron Age Celtic and also Iron age Roman Admixtures and the Reconquistada which also saw North - South gene flows. The genetic history of Iberia is going to be a large scale of changements.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It looks to me, from the first graph in post number 88, that the largest percentage of "E" in Iberia is E3b2, which is, I believe, E-M81, the pre-eminent, and very recent North African clade, which I think might make a Bronze Age arrival problematic.

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    Neolithic people in Iberia probably spoke a language related to Iberian. What's interesting is that Iberian language have a mostly Eastern Iberian expansion from Eastern Andalusia to Valencia. Later it reached Catolonia and Sw France too. I think Bell Beaker kind of had a more heavy in Central Iberia and Western Iberia all the way down to Portugal and had less heavy impact in eastern Iberia where a non-IE language survived
    The same could have happened in Pyrenees and Aquitania with the Basques. Of course considering how homogenous modern Iberians are regardess of language there was also massive genetic homogenousation.

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    @Pip : Help !!

    You seem to be right about British BB having more CWC than Czech BB.

    But look at the England Neo figures. Unless the software has gone crazy, there's something very strange here. Maybe you were right after all, and the steppe migrants did make a bee-line to north-western Europe before re-expanding eastwards (?). Edit : But if they did, why should British BB have more CW than Czech BB ?
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It looks to me, from the first graph in post number 88, that the largest percentage of "E" in Iberia is E3b2, which is, I believe, E-M81, the pre-eminent, and very recent North African clade, which I think might make a Bronze Age arrival problematic.
    I used to think so as well, but this might have been a relic of STR-only studies. Based on SNPS V13 is more than twice as frequent as M81 even in Andalusia.

    The distribution of E-M81 haplogroup, a Berber marker, was found at a frequency of 3% in our sample. The distribution of M81 frequencies in Iberia seems to be not concordant with the regions where Islamic rule was most intense and long-lasting. The study also showed that most of M78 derived allele (6.6%) led to the V13* subhaplogroup.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erranean_space

    I think that maybe a BA arrival might be too early.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The high levels of mtDna H1 are far too old for that.
    You're probably right. I haven't studied Iberian mtDNA lineages. So was H1 not also present in Eastern or North West European Neolithic cultures?
    (Interesting to me, as I am H1)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, and I still disagree with you and think you are confused even about what is at stake in this discussion, which is not the origin of the BB pottery and cultural phenomenon in the early 3th millennium BC Iberia. And you still keep thinking simplistically on the premise that language, material culture and Y-DNA haplogroups are all the same thing, and that a cultural or linguistic horizon has only one haplogroup each. You analysis is also completely "Iberocentric" (and of course I am supposed to believe ther is nothing personal or national about your position, right? Yes, of course, lol). You also resort to cult-ish conspiracy theories about how scientists are all trying to distort the data to not acknowledge your pet theory.
    It is funny that you think that what you constantly do here, which is telling people what they are and judging their capabilities by what they think (obviously only when and if they do not agree with you), is considered boring by you yourself. Look at yourself, man.
    Oh, and get your well deserved infraction.
    again about me, how I must be dumb and bla bla bla, I don't debate about me, I know myself and I don't waste time to debate provocative language

    it's low standard in a forum that someone that discusses with another can apply infractions (well deserved is in the personal plain)

    much worse is to make public that infraction, you clearly display to other members who is the king of the hill, even you are providing infraction without apport the reason / law and the name of the insulted people

    low standard, I got infraction, but the main problem is not in my side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post


    @Pip : Help !!

    You seem to be right about British BB having more CWC than Czech BB.

    But look at the England Neo figures. Unless the software has gone crazy, there's something very strange here. Maybe you were right after all, and the steppe migrants did make a bee-line to north-western Europe before re-expanding eastwards (?). Edit : But if they did, why should British BB have more CW than Czech BB ?
    I'm so glad we might agree on something!
    I don't know. I suspect there was conflict in the CW heartland, with BB the winner. Around the CW northern edges, the two probably collaborated together more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    You're probably right. I haven't studied Iberian mtDNA lineages. So was H1 not also present in Eastern or North West European Neolithic cultures?

    (Interesting to me, as I am H1)
    This is Maciamo's map of mtDna H1 and H3 today.


    This is the Wiki map:



    Of course, as with R1b M269, that doesn't mean it originated there.

    There was indeed some H1 in the ancient dna from more eastern regions.

    This is all I have. It looks like more H1 in the west, yes?

    "Haplogroup H has been found in various fossils that were analysed for ancient DNA, including specimens associated with the Linearbandkeramikculture (H1e, Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, 1/22 or ~5%; H1 or H1au1b, Karsdorf, 1/2 or 50%), Germany Middle Neolithic (H1e1a, Esperstedt, 1/1 or 100%), Iberia Early Neolithic (H1, El Prado de Pancorbo, 1/2 or 50%), Iberia Middle Neolithic (H1, La Mina, 1/4 or 25%), and Iberia Chalcolithic (H1t, El Mirador Cave, 1/12 or ~8%).[26] Haplogroup H has been observed in ancient Guanche fossils excavated in Gran Canaria and Tenerife on the Canary Islands, which have been radiocarbon-dated to between the 7th and 11th centuries CE. At the Tenerife site, these clade-bearing individuals were found to belong to the H1cf subclade (1/7; ~14%); at the Gran Canaria site, the specimens carried the H2a subhaplogroup (1/4; 25%).[27] Additionally, ancient Guanche (Bimbaches) individuals excavated in Punta Azul, El Hierro, Canary Islands were all found to belong to the H1 maternal subclade. These locally born individuals were dated to the 10th century and carried the H1-16260 haplotype, which is exclusive to the Canary Islands and Algeria.[28]"

    Is anyone aware of any compilation of ancient mtDna so a comparison could be made between western and eastern farmer groups? I would think it would be particularly informative to look at Carpathian farmer mtDna, Globular Amphora etc.

    This is from the Rui Martiniano paper on ancient Portugal:



    For us to know with more certainty we would also need the mtDna from all these samples. I hope they provide it.

    I think the fact that they are so high in Sardinia is another indication of their antiquity in western Europe.

    This is a recent paper on "H" in southern Iberia (and Morocco).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437654/

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I used to think so as well, but this might have been a relic of STR-only studies. Based on SNPS V13 is more than twice as frequent as M81 even in Andalusia.



    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...erranean_space

    I think that maybe a BA arrival might be too early.
    Thanks, Markod. Good info. :)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    This is Maciamo's map of mtDna H1 and H3 today.


    This is the Wiki map:



    Of course, as with R1b M269, that doesn't mean it originated there.

    There was indeed some H1 in the ancient dna from more eastern regions.

    This is all I have. It looks like more H1 in the west, yes?

    "Haplogroup H has been found in various fossils that were analysed for ancient DNA, including specimens associated with the Linearbandkeramikculture (H1e, Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, 1/22 or ~5%; H1 or H1au1b, Karsdorf, 1/2 or 50%), Germany Middle Neolithic (H1e1a, Esperstedt, 1/1 or 100%), Iberia Early Neolithic (H1, El Prado de Pancorbo, 1/2 or 50%), Iberia Middle Neolithic (H1, La Mina, 1/4 or 25%), and Iberia Chalcolithic (H1t, El Mirador Cave, 1/12 or ~8%).[26] Haplogroup H has been observed in ancient Guanche fossils excavated in Gran Canaria and Tenerife on the Canary Islands, which have been radiocarbon-dated to between the 7th and 11th centuries CE. At the Tenerife site, these clade-bearing individuals were found to belong to the H1cf subclade (1/7; ~14%); at the Gran Canaria site, the specimens carried the H2a subhaplogroup (1/4; 25%).[27] Additionally, ancient Guanche (Bimbaches) individuals excavated in Punta Azul, El Hierro, Canary Islands were all found to belong to the H1 maternal subclade. These locally born individuals were dated to the 10th century and carried the H1-16260 haplotype, which is exclusive to the Canary Islands and Algeria.[28]"

    Is anyone aware of any compilation of ancient mtDna so a comparison could be made between western and eastern farmer groups? I would think it would be particularly informative to look at Carpathian farmer mtDna, Globular Amphora etc.

    This is from the Rui Martiniano paper on ancient Portugal:



    For us to know with more certainty we would also need the mtDna from all these samples. I hope they provide it.

    I think the fact that they are so high in Sardinia is another indication of their antiquity in western Europe.

    This is a recent paper on "H" in southern Iberia (and Morocco).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437654/
    Found a database for ancient mt dna:

    https://amtdb.org/records/?epoch__in=2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Found a database for ancient mt dna:

    https://amtdb.org/records/?epoch__in=2
    Thanks, that's interesting.

    FTDNA's H1 project gives its TMRCA as 8,000 BC, and the database above identifies 6th millennium BC samples in Spain, Germany and Croatia. I suppose it might be associated with Neolithic expansions westwards or yDNA I2 lineages expanding eastwards.

    I guess, from what we know, it is not totally clear the extent to which Iberian Bronze Age H1 was derived from Neolithic Iberian H1 or H1 that might have been brought in from other parts of Europe with R1b. Although someone (such as Reich?) might have more evidence on this?

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