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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.

    Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

    It's mostly review until around 12 minutes in. He talks about Iberia from the perspective of Olalde et al: 40 percent replacement, but 100% replacement of the "Y".

    See:
    https://brown.hosted.panopto.com/Pan...6-aa02016a1124


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    He also confirmed Ancient Nubian DNA is on the pipeline. Which combined with the Djehutynakht nuclear DNA would be well helpful.

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    There is unfortunately still no date about the publication of the two papers(Iberian and South/Central Asia). All said is "soon", it would be nicer if at least an estimated number of weeks/months were informed when it is the case that so many people are waiting eagerly for the results of the studies.

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    1 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    There is unfortunately still no date about the publication of the two papers(Iberian and South/Central Asia). All said is "soon", it would be nicer if at least an estimated number of weeks/months were informed when it is the case that so many people are waiting eagerly for the results of the studies.
    I suspect that such delay in these and other papers is caused by findings that aren't pro-steppe, even amateurs are swiching westwards (wait, we will find L51 in the western steppe, not that, well, wait, we will find L51 in the Pannonian steppe, not that, uch, wait again, L51 was in westermost CWC area...). Of course I'm delighted to read such things along as in my mind it plays the song of Pet Shop Boys "Go West!", maybe they end in Atlantis :)
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    After learning that things like this (total replacement of Y in Iberia) existed in the past, I can understand better why religions appeared in that environment: it was just to moderate the absurdity of massive violence by the most powerful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farstar View Post
    After learning that things like this (total replacement of Y in Iberia) existed in the past, I can understand better why religions appeared in that environment: it was just to moderate the absurdity of massive violence by the most powerful.
    It's terrible isn't it? It happened in so many places and time periods. It could make you despair of human nature.

    Western religion's answer is original sin.

    Lately I've begun to think we just haven't evolved far enough from chimps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's terrible isn't it? It happened in so many places and time periods. It could make you despair of human nature.

    Western religion's answer is original sin.

    Lately I've begun to think we just haven't evolved far enough from chimps.
    we wouldn't be 7.5 billion today if it were so
    but a planet without war and violence is an utopia, I'm afraid

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    we wouldn't be 7.5 billion today if it were so
    but a planet without war and violence is an utopia, I'm afraid
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I don't see how our survival as a species makes the genocide we commit over and over again any more acceptable. What I despair of is our moral nature.

    Also, given atomic weapons, perhaps even our survival is not guaranteed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I don't see how our survival as a species makes the genocide we commit over and over again any more acceptable. What I despair of is our moral nature.

    Also, given atomic weapons, perhaps even our survival is not guaranteed.
    Or biological weapons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I don't see how our survival as a species makes the genocide we commit over and over again any more acceptable. What I despair of is our moral nature.

    Also, given atomic weapons, perhaps even our survival is not guaranteed.
    yes, but you were comparing us to apes
    imagine apes with atomic weapons, I don't think there would be any restraint
    but I don't deny, we're just animals with brains
    and 7.5 billion on the planet, it matters, look how apes react when there is overpopulation

    on the other hand, humans without any animal instinct wouldn't be humans any more, we'd turn into robots

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    Funny enough, Reich also pointed out that not only does Iberia have a significant amount of admixture traceable to North Africa but it well predates the Moors' rule. No later than the Romans.

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    we don't have enough info as to accept massive massacres, if BB were originaly a herder people and farmers were diying by starvation by bad crops they just expanded by getting empty houses. Case studies for BB expansion are not supporting massacres, at least in Catalonia... but it is true that they had advanced weapons and the control of a given territory could be done in a new way.

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    ^^That won't fly. 60% of the genetics of people on the Iberian peninsula is from the Middle/Late Neolithic farmers, so the women survived. Only the men were largely wiped out.

    I don't like it, but that seems to be the way it was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    ^^That won't fly. 60% of the genetics of people on the Iberian peninsula is from the Middle/Late Neolithic farmers, so the women survived. Only the men were largely wiped out.
    I'm not sure. I suspect the Iberian females might also have been largely wiped out, with the surviving females in Iberia being mainly of non-Iberian Neolithic farmer origin.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I'm not sure. I suspect the Iberian females might also have been largely wiped out, with the surviving females in Iberia being mainly of non-Iberian Neolithic farmer origin.
    The high levels of mtDna H1 are far too old for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The high levels of mtDna H1 are far too old for that.
    You're probably right. I haven't studied Iberian mtDNA lineages. So was H1 not also present in Eastern or North West European Neolithic cultures?
    (Interesting to me, as I am H1)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    You're probably right. I haven't studied Iberian mtDNA lineages. So was H1 not also present in Eastern or North West European Neolithic cultures?

    (Interesting to me, as I am H1)
    This is Maciamo's map of mtDna H1 and H3 today.


    This is the Wiki map:



    Of course, as with R1b M269, that doesn't mean it originated there.

    There was indeed some H1 in the ancient dna from more eastern regions.

    This is all I have. It looks like more H1 in the west, yes?

    "Haplogroup H has been found in various fossils that were analysed for ancient DNA, including specimens associated with the Linearbandkeramikculture (H1e, Halberstadt-Sonntagsfeld, 1/22 or ~5%; H1 or H1au1b, Karsdorf, 1/2 or 50%), Germany Middle Neolithic (H1e1a, Esperstedt, 1/1 or 100%), Iberia Early Neolithic (H1, El Prado de Pancorbo, 1/2 or 50%), Iberia Middle Neolithic (H1, La Mina, 1/4 or 25%), and Iberia Chalcolithic (H1t, El Mirador Cave, 1/12 or ~8%).[26] Haplogroup H has been observed in ancient Guanche fossils excavated in Gran Canaria and Tenerife on the Canary Islands, which have been radiocarbon-dated to between the 7th and 11th centuries CE. At the Tenerife site, these clade-bearing individuals were found to belong to the H1cf subclade (1/7; ~14%); at the Gran Canaria site, the specimens carried the H2a subhaplogroup (1/4; 25%).[27] Additionally, ancient Guanche (Bimbaches) individuals excavated in Punta Azul, El Hierro, Canary Islands were all found to belong to the H1 maternal subclade. These locally born individuals were dated to the 10th century and carried the H1-16260 haplotype, which is exclusive to the Canary Islands and Algeria.[28]"

    Is anyone aware of any compilation of ancient mtDna so a comparison could be made between western and eastern farmer groups? I would think it would be particularly informative to look at Carpathian farmer mtDna, Globular Amphora etc.

    This is from the Rui Martiniano paper on ancient Portugal:



    For us to know with more certainty we would also need the mtDna from all these samples. I hope they provide it.

    I think the fact that they are so high in Sardinia is another indication of their antiquity in western Europe.

    This is a recent paper on "H" in southern Iberia (and Morocco).
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5437654/

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    you are forgetting that BB in much of Iberia was already stablished before any Central European reflux, like the Barcelona R1b beakers devoid of steppe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    you are forgetting that BB in much of Iberia was already stablished before any Central European reflux, like the Barcelona R1b beakers devoid of steppe.
    How is that relevant, Berun? We're not talking about pottery styles here, we're talking about a migration of people, mostly men, from central Europe, who largely replaced the indigenous y.

    What difference does it make if these stepped admixed people from central Europe had previously adopted the Beaker pottery etc. in Central Europe.

    Of course, these Central Europeans had themselves absorbed MN/LN ancestry. They were only about 50% or less of steppe origin. Again, however, their "farmer" ancestry was from women, the "farmer" men having largely been wiped out.

    I used to think a lot of it might have been due to climate change leading to starvation and depopulation and the plague etc. and I still think it's true that these decreased numbers, but there's still a skew where some women survived to procreate, but not the men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How is that relevant, Berun? We're not talking about pottery styles here, we're talking about a migration of people, mostly men, from central Europe, who largely replaced the indigenous y.

    What difference does it make if these stepped admixed people from central Europe had previously adopted the Beaker pottery etc. in Central Europe.

    Of course, these Central Europeans had themselves absorbed MN/LN ancestry. They were only about 50% or less of steppe origin. Again, however, their "farmer" ancestry was from women, the "farmer" men having largely been wiped out.

    I used to think a lot of it might have been due to climate change leading to starvation and depopulation and the plague etc. and I still think it's true that these decreased numbers, but there's still a skew where some women survived to procreate, but not the men.
    according to reich those 40% are pure "eastern" ancestry. so if the incoming people were only 50% steppe the replacement would have been massive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    according to reich those 40% are pure "eastern" ancestry. so if the incoming people were only 50% steppe the replacement would have been massive.
    We'll see when the paper comes out, Ailchu, but I heard him say "people with steppe ancestry". Plus, I don't think any one suggests these newcomers came directly from the steppes. They, like all the others, mixed as they moved through western Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How is that relevant, Berun? We're not talking about pottery styles here, we're talking about a migration of people, mostly men, from central Europe, who largely replaced the indigenous y.

    What difference does it make if these stepped admixed people from central Europe had previously adopted the Beaker pottery etc. in Central Europe.

    Of course, these Central Europeans had themselves absorbed MN/LN ancestry. They were only about 50% or less of steppe origin. Again, however, their "farmer" ancestry was from women, the "farmer" men having largely been wiped out.

    I used to think a lot of it might have been due to climate change leading to starvation and depopulation and the plague etc. and I still think it's true that these decreased numbers, but there's still a skew where some women survived to procreate, but not the men.
    what men from Central Europe if Reich is the unique providing such admixture in Bronze Age Iberia, and even there are here and there BB men without it? Even Romanized Germans carried cultural traits when they take the Roman empire, can you provide even a proof of Central European cultural trait in Iberian BB?

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    what men from Central Europe if Reich is the unique providing such admixture in Bronze Age Iberia, and even there are here and there BB men without it? Even Romanized Germans carried cultural traits when they take the Roman empire, can you provide even a proof of Central European cultural trait in Iberian BB?
    You won't understand until you listen to the presentation and look at the graphs. They show what they show. It just remains to explain it.

    These are all the ancient samples from Iberia which have been found and published.





    @Ailchu,
    If you go to 19:52 in the talk you'll see that the newcomers to Iberia were 50% Central European farmer. Sorry about the prior post. I didn't see that you had amended what you said.

    As for the overlap, we're definitely going to have to wait for the final published paper, but it may be that it comes from areas where they hadn't yet arrived.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Ailchu,
    If you go to 19:52 in the talk you'll see that the newcomers to Iberia were 50% Central European farmer. Sorry about the prior post. I didn't see that you had amended what you said.

    As for the overlap, we're definitely going to have to wait for the final published paper, but it may be that it comes from areas where they hadn't yet arrived.
    this graph made me think that this "eastern" ancestry is central european. that would make a bit more sense since iberians have 20% steppe in the same graphic. but at one point he says that this eastern ancestry is ultimately related to the steppe. that would be strange. i'll just wait for the paper.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I can provide a good example, Viking colonizers in Greenland and the 100% replacement by Eskimos, which percent of such replacement was by weather and by violence?

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