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Thread: Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

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    Latest Reich talk on ancient Dna

    It's mostly review until around 12 minutes in. He talks about Iberia from the perspective of Olalde et al: 40 percent replacement, but 100% replacement of the "Y".

    See:
    https://brown.hosted.panopto.com/Pan...6-aa02016a1124


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    There is unfortunately still no date about the publication of the two papers(Iberian and South/Central Asia). All said is "soon", it would be nicer if at least an estimated number of weeks/months were informed when it is the case that so many people are waiting eagerly for the results of the studies.

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    After learning that things like this (total replacement of Y in Iberia) existed in the past, I can understand better why religions appeared in that environment: it was just to moderate the absurdity of massive violence by the most powerful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suyindik View Post
    There is unfortunately still no date about the publication of the two papers(Iberian and South/Central Asia). All said is "soon", it would be nicer if at least an estimated number of weeks/months were informed when it is the case that so many people are waiting eagerly for the results of the studies.
    I suspect that such delay in these and other papers is caused by findings that aren't pro-steppe, even amateurs are swiching westwards (wait, we will find L51 in the western steppe, not that, well, wait, we will find L51 in the Pannonian steppe, not that, uch, wait again, L51 was in westermost CWC area...). Of course I'm delighted to read such things along as in my mind it plays the song of Pet Shop Boys "Go West!", maybe they end in Atlantis :)
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Quote Originally Posted by Farstar View Post
    After learning that things like this (total replacement of Y in Iberia) existed in the past, I can understand better why religions appeared in that environment: it was just to moderate the absurdity of massive violence by the most powerful.
    It's terrible isn't it? It happened in so many places and time periods. It could make you despair of human nature.

    Western religion's answer is original sin.

    Lately I've begun to think we just haven't evolved far enough from chimps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's terrible isn't it? It happened in so many places and time periods. It could make you despair of human nature.

    Western religion's answer is original sin.

    Lately I've begun to think we just haven't evolved far enough from chimps.
    we wouldn't be 7.5 billion today if it were so
    but a planet without war and violence is an utopia, I'm afraid

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    we wouldn't be 7.5 billion today if it were so
    but a planet without war and violence is an utopia, I'm afraid
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I don't see how our survival as a species makes the genocide we commit over and over again any more acceptable. What I despair of is our moral nature.

    Also, given atomic weapons, perhaps even our survival is not guaranteed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I don't see how our survival as a species makes the genocide we commit over and over again any more acceptable. What I despair of is our moral nature.

    Also, given atomic weapons, perhaps even our survival is not guaranteed.
    Or biological weapons.

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    we don't have enough info as to accept massive massacres, if BB were originaly a herder people and farmers were diying by starvation by bad crops they just expanded by getting empty houses. Case studies for BB expansion are not supporting massacres, at least in Catalonia... but it is true that they had advanced weapons and the control of a given territory could be done in a new way.

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    ^^That won't fly. 60% of the genetics of people on the Iberian peninsula is from the Middle/Late Neolithic farmers, so the women survived. Only the men were largely wiped out.

    I don't like it, but that seems to be the way it was.

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    you are forgetting that BB in much of Iberia was already stablished before any Central European reflux, like the Barcelona R1b beakers devoid of steppe.

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    I can provide a good example, Viking colonizers in Greenland and the 100% replacement by Eskimos, which percent of such replacement was by weather and by violence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    you are forgetting that BB in much of Iberia was already stablished before any Central European reflux, like the Barcelona R1b beakers devoid of steppe.
    How is that relevant, Berun? We're not talking about pottery styles here, we're talking about a migration of people, mostly men, from central Europe, who largely replaced the indigenous y.

    What difference does it make if these stepped admixed people from central Europe had previously adopted the Beaker pottery etc. in Central Europe.

    Of course, these Central Europeans had themselves absorbed MN/LN ancestry. They were only about 50% or less of steppe origin. Again, however, their "farmer" ancestry was from women, the "farmer" men having largely been wiped out.

    I used to think a lot of it might have been due to climate change leading to starvation and depopulation and the plague etc. and I still think it's true that these decreased numbers, but there's still a skew where some women survived to procreate, but not the men.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How is that relevant, Berun? We're not talking about pottery styles here, we're talking about a migration of people, mostly men, from central Europe, who largely replaced the indigenous y.

    What difference does it make if these stepped admixed people from central Europe had previously adopted the Beaker pottery etc. in Central Europe.

    Of course, these Central Europeans had themselves absorbed MN/LN ancestry. They were only about 50% or less of steppe origin. Again, however, their "farmer" ancestry was from women, the "farmer" men having largely been wiped out.

    I used to think a lot of it might have been due to climate change leading to starvation and depopulation and the plague etc. and I still think it's true that these decreased numbers, but there's still a skew where some women survived to procreate, but not the men.
    according to reich those 40% are pure "eastern" ancestry. so if the incoming people were only 50% steppe the replacement would have been massive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream, but I don't see how our survival as a species makes the genocide we commit over and over again any more acceptable. What I despair of is our moral nature.

    Also, given atomic weapons, perhaps even our survival is not guaranteed.
    yes, but you were comparing us to apes
    imagine apes with atomic weapons, I don't think there would be any restraint
    but I don't deny, we're just animals with brains
    and 7.5 billion on the planet, it matters, look how apes react when there is overpopulation

    on the other hand, humans without any animal instinct wouldn't be humans any more, we'd turn into robots

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    I can provide a good example, Viking colonizers in Greenland and the 100% replacement by Eskimos, which percent of such replacement was by weather and by violence?
    100 % replacement in an environment that had a history of wiping out populations is not the same as a selective replacement of the men in a land with good carrying capacity and mediterranean climate.

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    i looked at the graphbagain and i think the "eastern ancestry" is just ancestry from central europe not from the steppe. he could have been a bit more clear. what was the average amount of this eastern ancestry in the incoming people? its' interessting the ancestries were both present for 500 years. reich says then they start to collapse into each other but on his graph it looks like these eastern migrants were already mixing quite a lot with the local population so maybe the "collapse" started immediately. there might just have been a few unmixed populations for 500 years?


    edit: though reich says that the eastern ancestry is ultimately related to the steppe in is presentation. i don't understand it anymore.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 07-03-19 at 17:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    How is that relevant, Berun? We're not talking about pottery styles here, we're talking about a migration of people, mostly men, from central Europe, who largely replaced the indigenous y.

    What difference does it make if these stepped admixed people from central Europe had previously adopted the Beaker pottery etc. in Central Europe.

    Of course, these Central Europeans had themselves absorbed MN/LN ancestry. They were only about 50% or less of steppe origin. Again, however, their "farmer" ancestry was from women, the "farmer" men having largely been wiped out.

    I used to think a lot of it might have been due to climate change leading to starvation and depopulation and the plague etc. and I still think it's true that these decreased numbers, but there's still a skew where some women survived to procreate, but not the men.
    what men from Central Europe if Reich is the unique providing such admixture in Bronze Age Iberia, and even there are here and there BB men without it? Even Romanized Germans carried cultural traits when they take the Roman empire, can you provide even a proof of Central European cultural trait in Iberian BB?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    100 % replacement in an environment that had a history of wiping out populations is not the same as a selective replacement of the men in a land with good carrying capacity and mediterranean climate.
    if you can't have normal crops in 3-5 years the population density decreases dramaticaly, even in sunny Mediterranean countries.

    as a little example

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grea...of_1315–1317

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    a year of bad crops along high herd mortality provided a toll of 1 in 5 Irish dying

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Famine_(1740–41)

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    a year of bad crops along high herd mortality provided a toll of 1 in 5 Irish dying

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Famine_(1740–41)
    Your analogies are poor. The issue here is not the population replacement. We know that can happen due to environmental causes. The issue is the extreme lopsidedness in replacement between genders.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarl View Post
    Your analogies are poor. The issue here is not the population replacement. We know that can happen due to environmental causes. The issue is the extreme lopsidedness in replacement between genders.
    sure that happened. but do we actually know the relative number of incoming people? what exactly are those 40%?

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    a naive question:
    are these numbers concerning only the BB setllements or allover Iberia? Today Y-R1b in Iberia is between 50 and 60% in the most of the regions, not 100%. (it's true History kept on running on after LN-Chalco) - I doubt about this 100% Y-replacement whatever the geographical source(s) -

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    a naive question:
    are these numbers concerning only the BB setllements or allover Iberia? Today Y-R1b in Iberia is between 50 and 60% in the most of the regions, not 100%. (it's true History kept on running on after LN-Chalco) - I doubt about this 100% Y-replacement whatever the geographical source(s) -

    according to reich the populations "collapsed" into each other all over iberia. in his graph there is only r1b afterwards. at around 13:40

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    Probably let's start with the most obvious. Why humans have weapons? You dont hunt a rabbit with an axe. I think the BB question happened also East in Kura-Araxes when late KA start to show R1b-V1636 instead of the previous G2b. Steppe people didn't necessarily spread with their own Steppe cultures, but appropriate themselves previous culture, for economical or prestige reasons. Wich reinforce the fact that they were expansionnists and materialists, for not saying mercantilists/capitalists.

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