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Thread: Why is North African or "Moorish" influence so weak in Iberia?

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    Why is North African or "Moorish" influence so weak in Iberia?

    I guess I'm not the first one noticing it but on all calculators not even a single region of the Iberian Peninsula exceeds 10% North African "Mozabite" admixture. It seems there was very low genetic exchange between them aka Iberians and the Moors, but on the other hand there's significant Iberian like admixture in places like Northern Morocco where it can be as high as 30% based on Ancestrydna data. (aside Canary Islanders who are like ~20% Native Canarian genetically)

    In generally Iberians are closest to South-western French and Basques, the difference is that few percent extra North African admixture and the more considerable Mediterranean shift which either came via Greeks, Romans, Phoenicians or by the combination of these groups.

    Even based on the Y-dna we see a very weak to non existent North African contribution. Comparing even Andalusia to Northern Morocco is two words apart, even tough the latter have significant Iberian peninsula like heritage.




    There's no clear North-South genetic cline in Iberia. Andalusians are genetically similar to inland and Northern Spainards, and Western Spain and Portugal which begs to differ in greater extent.



    On autosomal maps Spain and Portugal both appear as unquestionably European with no shift towards either Western Asia, nor the Maghreb-Arabia direction.



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    ^^

    It is something that the Spaniards or Andalusians already felt without the need for genetic tests, but it was an argument very used in the rest of Europe due to obsolete clichés of Central European romantic travelers who saw The Alhambra and four other monuments and toasted peasants by the sun and they began to fantasize and invent creating a precedent in the public opinion of those European countries that had suddenly forgotten their relations with Spain for many more centuries.


    Sometimes it is said to be low "even in Andalusia", so imagine if it was the neuralgic epicenter of the expulsions of Moriscos and Jews, being in the epicenter being a Moor would have been as if a lamb is at the door of a wolf's den.


    We must also have E lineages coming from Europe and other places. Normally when someone gets an E in Holland, maybe he thinks he comes from Spain, can not we think that maybe that E comes from Holland? conversely, to give an example.

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    Some jewels of our European friends:


    A French officer: In Córdoba the women sit on the floor and go covered, revealing only the eyes.


    Others saw Arab vestiges in every corner of Barcelona.


    Another said that the peasants of Almeria had the same appearance and dressed as the peasants of the Maghreb.


    This type of topical arguments that Europeans believed in Spain were used by the rest of the Spaniards with the Andalusians, some of them malicious, but above all as a joke of uncles in a bar or in an e.t.


    But the Andalusians have a character that these things do not make a dent because we see it as a fantastic literary recreation of others towards us, rather than a tangible or real fact.


    I tell them that they have to sell better, do more marketing themselves. But I think your strategy for these issues is to let time put things in place, as it really happens.

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    It is a search for the truth. Nobody is offended. If Spain had taken more Moors than the one that has been happy about life, nothing happens. It is about finding the truth of reality.

    Think that Spain was a European power at a preferential level already from the Kingdom of Tartessos. During the Roman Empire, the conventus gaditanus and the Betic had seats in the Roman senate. Making a leap beast after the Spanish Empire, before the Muslim period that everyone calls culturally excellent e.t.c.


    So if suddenly we have a 40-year regression of Dictatorship in Western Europe, as a rival less for countries like U.K. France, Germany.


    Time to rescue all the clichés of the world and wish that a strong rival remains alienated and then the topics and the black legends work perfectly.


    You see they are different! They are not like us because they are like that and we also want them to continue like this, and to say that the entire Spanish population or to become insulated is a mora because it is one more argument.


    But we are here, give us a little more time and you will see when we inflate the webs.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    An upcoming paper's talk with Dr. Reich noted that Iberians do actually have a notable amount of North African/Moor/Maghreb admixture. However, the mixture would well predate the Moors.

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    ^^
    Additives is not what is thrown into packaged foods?

    When you have not achieved what was expected is searched and scrutinized and now additives, tomorrow will be reminiscent.

    They look because maybe it's the other way around.

    I did not like that man too much. It does not look like clean wheat. I will send your file and your video to the CSIC to investigate what interests are behind this obsession.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alyan View Post
    An upcoming paper's talk with Dr. Reich noted that Iberians do actually have a notable amount of North African/Moor/Maghreb admixture. However, the mixture would well predate the Moors.
    It's very unlikely because the average Moroccan, Mozabite Berber is 25-30% Sub Saharan and the rest is being either Basal Eurasian or Iberian like. The average Iberian is 0.5-3% Sub Saharan at most with only a few outlying samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgewalley View Post
    It's very unlikely because the average Moroccan, Mozabite Berber is 25-30% Sub Saharan and the rest is being either Basal Eurasian or Iberian like. The average Iberian is 0.5-3% Sub Saharan at most with only a few outlying samples.
    One possibility (I am not saying this is the truth; I do not have enough knowledge for that) is the North African genetic imprint on Iberia happened before the Sub Saharan admixture in North Africa.

    One question could be: when did the admixture of North Africans with Sub Saharan Africans happen?

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    If an admixture run uses Mozabites, for example, as the reference for North African, then 1/4 of that total is "hidden" SSA. Any specific SSA would be in addition to that.

    It's like when people say Tuscans have no WHG. That's technically incorrect, because they have the hidden WHG that's in whatever ancient European farmer sample they're using, not even getting to the "WHG like" ancestry that was in the Anatolian farmers who went to Europe.

    Of course, that raises the question as to what sample should be used. How close were ancestral North Africans of the Neolithic and Bronze Age to the North Africans of today? Did they have less SSA? What about the "Moors" who actually went to Iberia and Sicily? How much did they have? How close are they to modern North Africans?

    According to the speech made by Reich, a sample from the upcoming Olalde paper on Iberia plots with "North Africans". Which North Africans?

    For this kind of analysis is there a better North African sample? I'd say Mozabites are one of the worst options, imo, because they're so drifted and, as I said, already have 25-30% SSA.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    If we were to use IBD analysis, this is the picture:


    This too has to be interpreted, of course. There's a time limit on how far back we can go with IBD analysis and get reliable results. So, in this case, there's "Near Eastern" ancestry in all Europeans. This is just from the "later" waves.

    FYI people. Contrary to the nonsense in the first post, this has absolutely nothing to do with how "European" one is.

    @Georgewalley,

    If I get one hint you're going to start t-rolling I will give you an infraction and close the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgewalley View Post
    It's very unlikely because the average Moroccan, Mozabite Berber is 25-30% Sub Saharan and the rest is being either Basal Eurasian or Iberian like. The average Iberian is 0.5-3% Sub Saharan at most with only a few outlying samples.
    Are we sure North Africans have SSA admixture? Mesolithic Taforalt clusters 'south' of all modern North Africans, closest to Horn Africans (Afar).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Are we sure North Africans have SSA admixture? Mesolithic Taforalt clusters 'south' of all modern North Africans, closest to Horn Africans (Afar).
    North African appear to have some post-Taforalt SSA, but more post-Taforalt West Eurasian, so balance is 'northward'; and they have plenty of (presumably) SSA uniparental markers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Georgewalley View Post
    It's very unlikely because the average Moroccan, Mozabite Berber is 25-30% Sub Saharan and the rest is being either Basal Eurasian or Iberian like. The average Iberian is 0.5-3% Sub Saharan at most with only a few outlying samples.
    Mistakes you're making:

    1. Treating Niger-Congo mixture as a proxy for indigenous African ancestry.

    2. Assuming none of the mixture that isn't obviously labeled as SSA wouldn't count as mixture.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I'm helping a Tejano (mostly Spanish, Mexican, and Native American descent) friend with his genealogy and suggested that he take a DNA test to support his paper trail results. His y-DNA is E-M183, a North African/Berber line (his paternal line came to the New World from either the Canary Islands or mainland Spain) and his mtDNA is C1b5, a Native American line. At least in his case, though his families have been in the New World for a long time, the North African influence is still evident in his paternal line.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Readers of this thread are directed to the thread discussing ancient Iberian dna: Olalde et al 2019.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...s-with-article

    Once there there's also a link to a paper on Iberian genetics based on modern samples, and findings of North African ancestry from that.

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