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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    The expelled descendants that today are in North Africa have a memory and those who had stayed in the peninsula would have lost it? He knows that there are people who still keep the key to his house and that there are laws that even give them Spanish nationality. If they had stayed a large amount they would not have been lonely wolves where in a few years their ancestry could be lost, we talked about families more than anything and then there would be memories, oral tradition something like it happens in the descendants of the current expelled, and there is not . You grow and if you ask for some building they tell you: that was of the Moors or that the Moors did, in the past and referring to other people, it is the only thing there is, nothing more. Therefore I keep my hypothesis refuted by the data that you already know.
    I strongly doubt that all descendants of expelled Moors and Moriscos in North Africa, Southeastern Europe and West Asia (they didn't all migrate to North África) are still fully aware of their ancestors in Iberia, especially in the case of communities that were not closed, like Muslims (as opposed to Sephardic Jews). If the numbers of estimates of the expelled population are anything near the truth, then it is definitely certain that there are dozens of millions of descendants of expelled Muslim or Jew Iberians in the world right now. A handful of them might've preserved their family history, most of them are certainly too diluted now to remember that. Anyway, I have no issue at all accepting the possibility that, yes, they might have preserved a memory of their ancestry, but those who had stayed in the peninsula would have lost it. The people that migrated didn't have to hide their origins in order to have a decent living or even to survive, so it is just obvious to me that the incentives to "forgetting" that long-gone ancestry would've been extremely higher in Iberia than in North África.

    Again, you're talking of "lonely wolves" as if all the conversions and assimilation had happened only during the period of persecutions and expulsions, but the fact is that the process of Christianization and cultural assimilation and blending had started more than 500 years earlier and had intensified decisively between around 1100 and 1300. By the late 15th century when the persecution really became overwhelming the bulk of Iberia had been under Christian hands for centuries, and the number of Muslims and Jews in Iberia had decreased a lot not through simple (de)conversion and admixture. The New Christians that were persecuted were most certainly those that had been latecomers and had maintained their distinctive ethnic and religious identity the longest, especially in the parts of Iberia that had resisted the Reconquista for a longer time. But by that time some families had already had Berber or Arab ancestors centuries earlier, and all of that had already become heavily diluted.

    Your hypothesis that there is "nothing more" is not corroborated by the data. 8-10% of genetic admixture is not a negligible proportion at all especially if you consider that there was a massive ethnic cleansing 400-500 years ago, which indicates clearly that it was even (much) higher for a long period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But he was the king of Crimean Goths, right? He was buried with the crown of Kerch after all.

    KER1 GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MD6611828

    Maybe he was the king who ruled over remnants of Bosporans, married to a Gothic princess?

    If he was the ruler of actual Goths then it means that Goths elected an ethnically foreign king:


    Eurogenes K13:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.97
    2 West_Asian 24.07
    3 North_Atlantic 18.23
    4 West_Med 13.87
    5 Baltic 8.01
    6 Red_Sea 1.86
    7 Amerindian 1.75
    8 Siberian 1.14
    9 Oceanian 0.09


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Central_Greek 11.11
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 11.33
    3 South_Italian 12.02
    4 East_Sicilian 12.3
    5 Turkish 13.54
    6 Ashkenazi 14.07
    7 West_Sicilian 14.86
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 15.19
    9 Greek_Thessaly 15.24
    10 Italian_Jewish 16.52
    11 Cyprian 17.16
    12 Algerian_Jewish 17.83
    13 Lebanese_Muslim 17.85
    14 Azeri 17.95
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 18.38
    16 Tuscan 18.87
    17 Libyan_Jewish 19.34
    18 Syrian 19.93
    19 Assyrian 20.07
    20 Armenian 20.43


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 64.6% Italian_Jewish + 35.4% Tabassaran @ 5.15
    2 68.2% Assyrian + 31.8% Southeast_English @ 5.38
    3 63.9% Italian_Jewish + 36.1% Lezgin @ 5.45
    4 64.1% Assyrian + 35.9% West_German @ 5.48
    5 65.2% Assyrian + 34.8% South_Dutch @ 5.61
    6 69% Assyrian + 31% Southwest_English @ 5.65
    7 68.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 31.5% Kurdish @ 5.66
    8 69.2% Assyrian + 30.8% Orcadian @ 5.71
    9 63.3% Assyrian + 36.7% French @ 5.72
    10 72.4% South_Italian + 27.6% Lezgin @ 5.82
    11 69.7% Assyrian + 30.3% West_Scottish @ 5.84
    12 63.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 36.3% Azeri @ 5.91
    13 69.5% Assyrian + 30.5% Irish @ 5.93
    14 73.2% South_Italian + 26.8% Tabassaran @ 5.98
    15 63.9% Italian_Jewish + 36.1% Chechen @ 5.98
    16 69.1% Assyrian + 30.9% North_Dutch @ 6.06
    17 67.2% Sephardic_Jewish + 32.8% Tabassaran @ 6.1
    18 67.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.8% Armenian @ 6.12
    19 69% Assyrian + 31% Danish @ 6.18
    20 76.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 23.8% Abhkasian @ 6.21


    Eurogenes K15:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 West_Asian 27.53
    2 East_Med 25.61
    3 Atlantic 14.99
    4 North_Sea 11.57
    5 West_Med 8.46
    6 Eastern_Euro 3.46
    7 Baltic 3.15
    8 Red_Sea 3.02
    9 Amerindian 1.48
    10 Siberian 0.72


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Turkish 11.83
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 13.36
    3 Central_Greek 13.84
    4 East_Sicilian 14.97
    5 South_Italian 15.08
    6 Azeri 15.17
    7 Ashkenazi 15.61
    8 Greek 17.31
    9 West_Sicilian 17.43
    10 Armenian 17.69
    11 Sephardic_Jewish 17.9
    12 Greek_Thessaly 17.96
    13 Kurdish 18.22
    14 Georgian_Jewish 18.41
    15 Italian_Jewish 18.59
    16 Lebanese_Muslim 19.04
    17 Assyrian 19.16
    18 Kumyk 19.29
    19 Tuscan 19.6
    20 Cyprian 19.63


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.7% Armenian + 30.3% Irish @ 5.09
    2 69% Armenian + 31% Southeast_English @ 5.1
    3 70% Armenian + 30% West_Scottish @ 5.24
    4 66.2% Armenian + 33.8% South_Dutch @ 5.31
    5 69% Armenian + 31% Southwest_English @ 5.36
    6 68.2% Georgian_Jewish + 31.8% Southeast_English @ 5.51
    7 68.1% Georgian_Jewish + 31.9% Southwest_English @ 5.6
    8 67.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.4% Georgian @ 5.61
    9 68.9% Georgian_Jewish + 31.1% Irish @ 5.61
    10 68.1% Armenian + 31.9% North_German @ 5.61
    11 65% Armenian + 35% French @ 5.7
    12 69.3% Georgian_Jewish + 30.7% West_Scottish @ 5.74
    13 70.4% Armenian + 29.6% Orcadian @ 5.76
    14 70.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 29.2% Abhkasian @ 5.76
    15 69.6% Armenian + 30.4% Danish @ 5.82
    16 65.4% Georgian_Jewish + 34.6% South_Dutch @ 5.83
    17 69.6% Georgian_Jewish + 30.4% Orcadian @ 5.93
    18 69.9% Armenian + 30.1% North_Dutch @ 5.97
    19 64.1% Georgian_Jewish + 35.9% French @ 6.11
    20 65% Armenian + 35% Spanish_Cataluna @ 6.2
    How interesting that he looks like a Northwestern European-shifted Armenian or something of that sort. Was he a local, or where else did he come from? What would that say about the general population of his homeland back then?

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    Ygorcs


    I have lost 4% of NA what has happened. Is it possible that the 4% given by FamilyFinder as NA were Iberian and FamilyFinder would have labeled it as NA?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    My Heritage results never make any sense to me, I'm sorry to say. I expected more from Israelis. Of the commercial testing companies, 23andme and Ancestry are much better, imo.

    Plus, individual results might vary a bit. For population genetics purposes it is the results of academic testing based on scientifically chosen samples which can help us decipher the past.

    The only thing I used my 23andme results for was for comparison with other Italians, and specifically other Italians from my area. Once it was clear that I landed exactly where someone from my part of Italy and with my geneaology should land, that was it. Of course, that was an individual choice and not everyone is going to make it.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I took another look at the yDna of the samples because they're also listed in the Krause paper on the Anatolian Neolithic.

    Is there a resurgence of G2a clades in southeastern Spain in the Copper Age, or was there always perhaps more G2a there.

    I ask because copper metallurgy was brought to Spain. Could G2a men from the Balkans have brought it? I've always thought Otzi descended from a later wave too, one with more eastern ancestry.

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    MyHeritage is absolutely shambolic lol, genuinely a waste of money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I took another look at the yDna of the samples because they're also listed in the Krause paper on the Anatolian Neolithic.

    Is there a resurgence of G2a clades in southeastern Spain in the Copper Age, or was there always perhaps more G2a there.

    I ask because copper metallurgy was brought to Spain. Could G2a men from the Balkans have brought it? I've always thought Otzi descended from a later wave too, one with more eastern ancestry.
    I don't know if it would be Ötzi's branch (especially as his copper in his axe was from Tuscany, so surely he didn't know how to smelt) - but I'm leaning that way now too. I used to think it was R1b-L51 as I thought throughout the Neolithic Iberian Y DNA was consistent, yet this doesn't seem the case.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Maybe not smelt, but he knew how to work copper to some degree, it seems. I don't know if the testing has stood the test of time, but some of the early results indicated he had residues in his blood.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post


    I wonder how, where and when these steppe people got immunity against the plague, and what it was they had which the neolithic people didn't have, that made them replace the male population.
    The archeology didn't find signs of violence.
    Maybe apathy, social marginalization, slavery/servitude, indifference/depression, loss of confidence, lower self-esteem and lower social status, loss of competitive advantages and willingness to compete, reproduce and thrive... all of that disturbance in the males' social identities and orders ultimately leading to them not passing their lineages down not just because they were dying in higher proportions, but because at each generation they were leaving shorter offspring? That has happened many times with primitive societies, affecting males invariably more than females, when they met more economically and technologically advanced incomers, but I'm not sure the effect would be the same when the encounter was between farmers and pastoralists with similar levels of cultural and technological achievement.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Ygorcs That's actually an interesting hypothesis. Worth to investigate the potential psychologic and sociologic realities of Neolithic Europe. Sort of Psychologie des Foules of Prehistoric Times.

    The hypothesis of Wars and Conquest from the Steppe guys could actually very well be confirmed or infirmed by burials data, like founding many graves with skulls in bad shape, like we would see at the Tollensee but in BB times. If we cannot confirmed this, we might turn into a prehistoric Civilization Sickness that would burn the society from the inside and let outsiders take commands. Wich actually happened multiple times in wrote history.

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    Yes, well, sorry to disappoint, half Alp, but as the authors point out, there are no such sites so far.

    There's violence between late neolithic groups when scarcity hit, there's lots of violence on the steppe, there's that very large battle in northern Europe, but no sign so far of mass violence by the newcomers against indigenous Europeans of central Europe or Ibera.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Yes, well, sorry to disappoint, half Alp, but as the authors point out, there are no such sites so far.

    There's violence between late neolithic groups when scarcity hit, there's lots of violence on the steppe, there's that very large battle in northern Europe, but no sign so far of mass violence by the newcomers against indigenous Europeans of central Europe or Ibera.
    That's interesting that you assume i wanted them to found signs of violence.

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    Well, it seems to be the case with a lot of the young men interested in pop gen.

    You know, like eurogenes with his "blonde cowboys of the steppe", who were by no means mostly blonde and didn't "ride" or fight from horseback until long after the periods we're discussing.

    I do distinctly get the feeling, indeed. sometimes it's stated explicity, that they're quite fond of, as I sometimes say, this Conan the Barbarian view of history. Women are bound to take a different view, yes? The "rape", really, "theft" of the Sabine women doesn't look like a lot of fun, for example.Some of them might have quite liked their husbands, you know?



    If it were me I would have put some hemlock in their stew.

    Plus, if there are uglier, less appealing men than Arnold Schwatzeneggger, it's hard for me to think of one at the moment.


    If the shoe doesn't fit, however, by all means don't wear it. Good to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, it seems to be the case with a lot of the young men interested in pop gen.

    You know, like eurogenes with his "blonde cowboys of the steppe", who were by no means mostly blonde and didn't "ride" or fight from horseback until long after the periods we're discussing.

    I do distinctly get the feeling, indeed. sometimes it's stated explicity, that they're quite fond of, as I sometimes say, this Conan the Barbarian view of history. Women are bound to take a different view, yes? The "rape", really, "theft" of the Sabine women doesn't look like a lot of fun, for example.Some of them might have quite liked their husbands, you know?



    If it were me I would have put some hemlock in their stew.

    Plus, if there are uglier, less appealing men than Arnold Schwatzeneggger, it's hard for me to think of one at the moment.


    If the shoe doesn't fit, however, by all means don't wear it. Good to know.
    If i need to know what is European People fond of, i just have to turn on the TV. Not to revive Bronze Age Symbolism, or just for myself on self-developpement purposes. As for Blonde or Red hairs and Horses, i still do believe in it, but not that it really matters right? I mean, it's about coincidences even if the datas dont show them or yet, not about Blonde Haired Cow-Boys. I'm dark haired and blonde girls are not my taste. As for the potential rape culture of IE men, it would circle around porn fetish of modern men to be attracted by that. And i'm actually pretty sure that BB men weren't particularly beautiful, and i'm thinking to some modern British guys ( sorry for them ) and i'm not talking about the sexy mediterranean with blue eyes, but more like the ginger with porky nose. Or he dont have to be a ginger, but the porky nose is necessary. But you also need to understand that in the modern society, were people mostly dont believe in god anymore and dont have a lot of structure, like in a society of order like in tribal societies, things can fast turn to depression. People constantly talk about the beauty of independance, but as a tumultuous boy who was raised by a single mother, i would have prefered a very structured but more rigide men society. So from that point, the idea of your ancestors one day being warriors with a code of honor, just like Chivalry ( and i know Chivalry was less honor than slaughter ), is very appealing. I'm obviously not talking about Nationalism or Purity... but about self-developpement. That is basically my personal agenda. However, there is one thing wich i'm very irrited by, is when i feel there is a globalist theme behind the speech of someone. And i'm personnally thinking of Lazaridis and Krause. Multiple times they feel the need or the condescendance to bring European history vs Others history, while Others history is fine, but it's their history. I also have a specific aversion for Lord Renfrew and his constant bashing of Gimbutas and Steppe, for god knows the reason, who cares she didn't have the perfect hypothesis? People still bashing on her 20 years after her death.

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    Well, I'm a great admirer of Gimbutas. Yes, she got some things wrong, but she got a lot right too, and without the benefit of the technology to decipher ancient dna.

    As for her view of the "Old Europe" of the Balkans as some sort of female ruled ocean of peace and harmony, I think she got that mostly wrong.

    However, I still maintain that in the "farmer" societies, like my favorites, the Minoans, women may have had more of a role, and they certainly didn't have the warrior cult and idolization to which I so much object.

    As to modern parenting, you're preaching to the choir. I'm extremely old-fashioned in my views. Yes, a single mother can do a good job raising her children, including sons, but I maintain it's much harder. The two parent family hasn't lasted so long without a good reason. It's the optimum situation for raising children. Fathers are particularly important, imo, for sons, to teach them how to "be" men.

    I look around me now, and I don't see a lot of men like my father and my uncles, or like my husband's uncles. I see spoiled little boys obsessed with their electionic toys and with trying to get easy sex.

    That's part of the reason why I'm actually in favor of mandatory military service at least for boys, although it doesn't provide the whole answer. If their families can't do it, someone or something has to socialize them. They need to learn discipline, respect, a sense of duty, and the values of commitment to the group that hopefully it can inculcate. Heck, just making sure they can keep themselves and their quarters clean, and themselves healthy is a start.

    I honestly do fear for the future for my own children.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Well, I'm a great admirer of Gimbutas. Yes, she got some things wrong, but she got a lot right too, and without the benefit of the technology to decipher ancient dna.

    As for her view of the "Old Europe" of the Balkans as some sort of female ruled ocean of peace and harmony, I think she got that mostly wrong.

    However, I still maintain that in the "farmer" societies, like my favorites, the Minoans, women may have had more of a role, and they certainly didn't have the warrior cult and idolization to which I so much object.

    As to modern parenting, you're preaching to the choir. I'm extremely old-fashioned in my views. Yes, a single mother can do a good job raising her children, including sons, but I maintain it's much harder. The two parent family hasn't lasted so long without a good reason. It's the optimum situation for raising children. Fathers are particularly important, imo, for sons, to teach them how to "be" men.

    I look around me now, and I don't see a lot of men like my father and my uncles, or like my husband's uncles. I see spoiled little boys obsessed with their electionic toys and with trying to get easy sex.

    That's part of the reason why I'm actually in favor of mandatory military service at least for boys, although it doesn't provide the whole answer. If their families can't do it, someone or something has to socialize them. They need to learn discipline, respect, a sense of duty, and the values of commitment to the group that hopefully it can inculcate. Heck, just making sure they can keep themselves and their quarters clean, and themselves healthy is a start.

    I honestly do fear for the future for my own children.
    I think Gimbutas had a lot of things wrong too, but if you think about it, most thing she got wrong are proving with Archeogenetic when it didn't really existed at her times. Wich is not fair game at all. I actually think that Farmers societies weren't that peacefull and that even Social Stratification probably came from Old Europe, or developped simultaneously with Early Steppe and Middle-East groups, maybe because of a Circum-Pontic already established trade system. I'm also extremelly old fashioned, it's actually my favorite cocktail... No but to be serious, there is a very low chance that a single mother can do the perfect job, both boys and girls needs the admiration over a father figure. Porn is one of the cancer who is ruining men's life, even married ones, it is changing something in your brain, and like Opioids, you get anesthetize and need more and more in more troubled ways. The problem and that was the point between my Order and Independance idea, people and especially Women ( sorry to tell this ) see Porn or Depraved Sexuality as something Empowering, while a lot of Men are seeing this as something Depraving for themselves and are trying to overcome that and to become better persons, you can see that with internet movements such as No Fap or MGTOW ( wich i'm not part of and dont really support the idea btw ). I also like the idea of Conscription wich my country applies, but i didn't do it. I think for Europe, countries like France would make a good use of it, they use to have it, but they stopped it, for whatever reason, probably money.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Maybe apathy, social marginalization, slavery/servitude, indifference/depression, loss of confidence, lower self-esteem and lower social status, loss of competitive advantages and willingness to compete, reproduce and thrive... all of that disturbance in the males' social identities and orders ultimately leading to them not passing their lineages down not just because they were dying in higher proportions, but because at each generation they were leaving shorter offspring? That has happened many times with primitive societies, affecting males invariably more than females, when they met more economically and technologically advanced incomers, but I'm not sure the effect would be the same when the encounter was between farmers and pastoralists with similar levels of cultural and technological achievement.
    I have the same feeling.
    The bronze age newcomers had some thrive, the European farmers seem to have lost. They had become apathetic.
    I don't know why.

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    Conan the Bárbaro is one of my favorite movies with Greasse and others. In cinema everything is possible with a good sound vanda and a script that makes us always winners but the same in reality would be quite sad, opaque, tragic regrettable. In Spain mothers and even grandmothers are already taking little boys with pigtails and painted nails to create gender equality in the future in the face of so much political advertising. If only Europe happens and at the same time we are receiving immigration from places where even though they live in Spain they will never change roles, integration will be even more impossible. Or everything is in pure aesthetics and although the man appears makeup with painted nails and shadow in the eyes continue the man in his usual role that is older than makeup. I do not know what will happen.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Conan the Bárbaro is one of my favorite movies with Greasse and others. In cinema everything is possible with a good sound vanda and a script that makes us always winners but the same in reality would be quite sad, opaque, tragic regrettable. In Spain mothers and even grandmothers are already taking little boys with pigtails and painted nails to create gender equality in the future in the face of so much political advertising. If only Europe happens and at the same time we are receiving immigration from places where even though they live in Spain they will never change roles, integration will be even more impossible. Or everything is in pure aesthetics and although the man appears makeup with painted nails and shadow in the eyes continue the man in his usual role that is older than makeup. I do not know what will happen.
    The makeup at the Versailles court was extremely important. In the courts of the kings Louis XIV and Louis XV, the ideal of beauty was linked to everything that was artificial. The face, the body, the language, the emotions, everything became "makeup" ... The flaccid flesh was trapped by corsets and heavy fabrics ... The lips were makeuped with bright red and the cheeks with the pink or with red. The false pints (les mouches) made of fabrics were cut into various shapes and, depending on where they were placed, meant something. Both, men and women, makeup theirselfs. To hide the lack of hygiene, people wore perfumes with notes of flowers and musk. The teeth were brushed with coral dust, extremely abrasive, with oyster powder or white wine ...
    White and red were the predominant colors. Red was seen as the tone capable of hiding old age and evoking sensuality. It came to be used everywhere, including the cheek of the dead. In addition to the red, the blue was used to hide the veins of the forehead, of the temples and of the neck in order to evoke the blue blood of the aristocracy.
    Through the white oxide of lead, the women obtained the idealized white complexion. Most of the products used at that time, although extremely expensive, were highly harmful since they had as their basic element lead or arsenic. Let us also remember that women ate arsenic tablets to become anemic and keep the skin pale.
    The color white was the favorite color of the skin, because a livid skin caused the effect of 'statue', and, reminder of the Middle Ages, evoked virginity. The extremely translucent skin created the illusion of purity, suggested a face and, by extension, an individual free of any blemish or scar. Being extremely makeuped also meant that her skin was homogenized, since the products disguised the dermatoses, the rosaceas, the redness ... To avoid tanning, the precious ones wore a mask that they held by their teeth, which prohibited them from talking. Fitelieu wrote in 1642 that, in order to make an elegant woman of the time, a whole boutique was necessary!


    Versailles became a stage where arrogant puppets stared at each other in the mirror ...

    IMG_0001.jpg

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    ^^

    I really think that the habit or the makeup would not influence the roles in the end, even if the current radical feminists, rather than equality, try to inhibit masculinity, which has nothing to do with homosexuality, since there are very masculine gays in fact They are so macho that they sleep with men.


    The makeup in France is incredible, there are still people in Spain who believe that the French do not bathe but simply perfumed. You have to see what the clichés are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^

    I really think that the habit or the makeup would not influence the roles in the end, even if the current radical feminists, rather than equality, try to inhibit masculinity, which has nothing to do with homosexuality, since there are very masculine gays in fact They are so macho that they sleep with men.


    The makeup in France is incredible, there are still people in Spain who believe that the French do not bathe but simply perfumed. You have to see what the clichés are.
    ^^

    LOL. In fact it takes to be a superman to sleep with another man. LOL. I'm laughing, but I'm not prejudiced about it. The cliché about of the hygiene of French people also exists in Brazil and there are many French YouTubers with channels directed to the Brazilian public that play with this and do much success by here. LOL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    The makeup at the Versailles court was extremely important. In the courts of the kings Louis XIV and Louis XV, the ideal of beauty was linked to everything that was artificial. The face, the body, the language, the emotions, everything became "makeup" ... The flaccid flesh was trapped by corsets and heavy fabrics ... The lips were makeuped with bright red and the cheeks with the pink or with red. The false pints (les mouches) made of fabrics were cut into various shapes and, depending on where they were placed, meant something. Both, men and women, makeup theirselfs. To hide the lack of hygiene, people wore perfumes with notes of flowers and musk. The teeth were brushed with coral dust, extremely abrasive, with oyster powder or white wine ...
    White and red were the predominant colors. Red was seen as the tone capable of hiding old age and evoking sensuality. It came to be used everywhere, including the cheek of the dead. In addition to the red, the blue was used to hide the veins of the forehead, of the temples and of the neck in order to evoke the blue blood of the aristocracy.
    Through the white oxide of lead, the women obtained the idealized white complexion. Most of the products used at that time, although extremely expensive, were highly harmful since they had as their basic element lead or arsenic. Let us also remember that women ate arsenic tablets to become anemic and keep the skin pale.
    The color white was the favorite color of the skin, because a livid skin caused the effect of 'statue', and, reminder of the Middle Ages, evoked virginity. The extremely translucent skin created the illusion of purity, suggested a face and, by extension, an individual free of any blemish or scar. Being extremely makeuped also meant that her skin was homogenized, since the products disguised the dermatoses, the rosaceas, the redness ... To avoid tanning, the precious ones wore a mask that they held by their teeth, which prohibited them from talking. Fitelieu wrote in 1642 that, in order to make an elegant woman of the time, a whole boutique was necessary!


    Versailles became a stage where arrogant puppets stared at each other in the mirror ...

    IMG_0001.jpg
    You are white, why are you so obsessed with blackness and why are you not telling quite clearly early? That's the real true question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    You are white, why are you so obsessed with blackness and why are you not telling quite clearly early? That's the real true question.
    this has nothing to do with blackness
    it's because they despise the 'stupid peasants' who work outside in the fields and are tanned

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    this has nothing to do with blackness
    it's because they despise the 'stupid peasants' who work outside in the fields and are tanned
    You didn't see his previous posts, he has a black skin bias, but he dont quite tell it. I'm slightly aware of France history, thank you.
    Last edited by halfalp; 21-03-19 at 20:57. Reason: Put an S at PostS

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