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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

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    ^^But if he says it continuously. He has published it and always mentions it. It has never been hidden or ignored or hidden or hidden, I have never seen it.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    You didn't see his previous posts, he has a black skin bias, but he dont quite tell it. I'm slightly aware of France history, thank you.
    You are mistaken. I have no obsession with blackness. The truth is that the old European nobility never had much sympathy for the sunburned skin and the calloused hands of the peasants. In China of nowadays the same thing happens. People living in cities do not like to expose themselves to the sun because they do not want to look like "uneducated" peasants with extremely tanned skin. Even to go to the beach or to the pool they cover themselves totally with clothes similar to the clothes used by divers.
    I do not see where you could see some racial bias in my previous post.
    The French nobility before the French revolution was completely alienated, to the point that a court servant told Marie-Antoinette that the people were revolted because they had no bread to eat and she replied frivolously: "If there is no bread, let them eat brioches”.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    You didn't see his previous posts, he has a black skin bias, but he dont quite tell it. I'm slightly aware of France history, thank you.
    That's absurd. He's the furthest thing from a racist.


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    L618
    This map makes my journey. Arrives in Romania. With whom did you reach the Iberian peninsula?
    Last edited by Carlos; 24-03-19 at 03:07.

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    THE NEW YORK TIMES

    A History of the Iberian Peninsula, as Told by Its Skeletons

    With an analysis of DNA from nearly 300 fossilized remains, scientists are peering into human prehistory in the region

    By Carl Zimmer
    March 14, 2019

    For thousands of years, the Iberian Peninsula — home now to Spain and Portugal — has served as a crossroads.
    Phoenicians from the Near East built trading ports there 3,000 years ago, and Romans conquered the region around 200 B.C. Muslim armies sailed from North Africa and took control of Iberia in the 8th century A.D. Some three centuries later, they began losing territory to Christian states.
    Along with historical records and archaeological digs, researchers now have a new lens on Iberia’s past: DNA preserved in the region’s ancient skeletons. Archaeologists and geneticists are extracting genetic material spanning not just Iberia’s written history but its prehistory, too.
    “We wanted to bridge the ancient populations and the modern populations,” said Iñigo Olalde, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School. Dr. Olalde is the lead author of a paper published on Thursday in Science that analyzes the DNA of 271 ancient Iberians.

    In recent years, scientists have created similar chronologies for entire continents, based on hundreds of samples of ancient DNA. Now researchers are starting to narrow their focus to smaller regions.
    With a total of 419 ancient human genomes obtained by various laboratories, Iberia offers a rich trove. Scientists have recovered only 174 ancient genomes in Britain, and just eight in Japan.

    This dense record shows that Iberia’s genetic profile changed markedly in response to major events in history, such as the Roman conquest. But researchers have also uncovered evidence of migrations that were previously unknown. Iberia, it now seems, was a crossroads long before recorded history, as far back as the last ice age.

    The oldest known human DNA in Iberia comes from a 19,000-year-old skeleton found in 2010 in a cave called El Mirón, in northern Spain. The skeleton belonged to a woman, a member of a band of Ice Age hunter-gatherers.
    People in Iberia continued to live as hunter-gatherers for thousands of years after that, long after the end of the Ice Age. Dr. Olalde and his colleagues analyzed DNA from four additional hunter-gatherers, while a separate team, based at the Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History, extracted DNA from 10 more.

    Both teams obtained the same striking result: Iberian hunter-gatherers had a remarkable mix of genes, showing that they descended from two profoundly distinct groups of early European hunter-gatherers.

    One of these groups can be traced as far back as 35,000 years, thanks to a skeleton discovered at a site in Belgium called Goyet. The Goyet-related people spread across Europe, only to be replaced on much of the continent near the end of the Ice Age by a genetically distinct population.
    The earliest sign of the second group appears 14,000 years ago, known to researchers by DNA in a skeleton at an Italian site called Villabruna.
    But in Iberia, the new studies find, the Goyet and Villabruna people coexisted. Hunter-gatherers across the peninsula had a mixture of ancestry from the two peoples.
    “This is quite amazing, because it’s not happening in other areas,” said Vanessa Villalba-Mouco, the lead author of the Max Planck study, published in Current Biology.

    Ms. Villalba-Mouco speculated that the geography of Iberia — located in a far corner of Europe — may have allowed the Goyet people to endure there after they disappeared elsewhere. “Maybe nobody was bothering these hunter-gatherers,” she said.
    But whatever solitude Iberia might have offered came to an end about 7,500 years ago, when new people arrived with crops and livestock. These first farmers, originally from Anatolia, brought with them a distinctive genetic signature.


    After their arrival, the genetic makeup of Iberians changed dramatically. Ninety percent of the DNA from the later skeletons derives from the Anatolian farmers; 10 percent comes from the hunter-gatherers.
    But this shift was not a simple story of an older population replaced by a newer one. Starting about 6,000 years ago, Dr. Olalde and his colleagues found, hunter-gatherer ancestry in Iberian farmers actually increased to 20 percent.
    [Like the Science Times page on Facebook. | Sign up for the Science Times newsletter.]

    It’s possible that hunter-gatherers endured beyond the advent of farming. They may have taken up farming as well, and perhaps later the two cultures merged.

    For centuries afterward, the researchers found, there was little change in the genetic profile of Iberians. But there are hints of a few remarkable migrations.
    A skeleton from an elaborate grave in central Spain about 4,400 years old belonged to a man whose ancestry was 100 percent North African.
    “That’s crazy,” said David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School and a co-author of the paper in Science. “We double-checked it because it was so weird.”

    Another striking result emerged when the researchers studied the DNA from a 3,500-year-old woman. They concluded she had a North African grandparent.
    These findings suggest that people were moving into Iberia from Africa more than 3,000 years before the rise of the Roman Empire. “These are cosmopolitan places,” Dr. Reich said.
    About 4,500 years ago, still another wave of people arrived, profoundly altering the makeup of Iberia.

    A few centuries earlier, nomads from the steppes of what is now Russia turned up in Eastern Europe with horses and wagons. They spread across the continent, giving up nomadic life and intermarrying with European farmers.
    When they finally reached Iberia, these people spread out far and wide. “They really have an impact on the whole peninsula,” said Dr. Olalde.
    But skeletal DNA from that period is striking and puzzling. Over all, Bronze Age Iberians traced 40 percent of their ancestry to the newcomers.
    DNA from the men, however, all traced back to the steppes. The Y chromosomes from the male farmers disappeared from the gene pool.
    To archaeologists, the shift is a puzzle.

    “I cannot say what it is,” said Roberto Risch, an archaeologist at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, who was not involved in the new studies. But he ruled out wars or massacres as the cause. “It’s not a particularly violent time,” he said.

    Instead, Dr. Risch suspects “a political process” is the explanation. In their archaeological digs, Dr. Risch and his colleagues have found that Iberian farmers originally lived in egalitarian societies, storing their wealth together and burying their dead in group graves.
    But over several centuries, palaces and fortresses began to rise, and power became concentrated in the hands of a few. Dr. Risch speculated that the cultural shift had something to do with the genetic shift found by Dr. Olalde and his colleagues.
    The Bronze Age in Iberia was followed by the Iron Age about 2,800 years ago. In skeletons from this period, Dr. Olalde and his colleagues found clues of more arrivals.

    Iron Age Iberians could trace some of their ancestry to new waves of people arriving from northern and Central Europe, possibly marking the rise of so-called Celtiberian culture on the peninsula.
    In addition, the scientists found a growing amount of North African ancestry in skeletons from the Iron Age. That may reflect trade around the Mediterranean, which brought North Africans to Iberian towns, where they settled down.

    North African ancestry increased in Iberia even more after Romans took control. Now the peninsula was part of an empire that thrived on widespread trade. At the same time, people from southern Europe and the Near East also began leaving an imprint.
    This shift in ancestry could explain one of the biggest mysteries in Iberian history. Researchers have long puzzled over the distinctive culture of the Basque region in northern Spain.

    The Basque speak a language that is unrelated to other European tongues. Some researchers have speculated that they descended from a population that had been distinct since the Bronze Age or earlier.

    Genetically, at least, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Before the Roman era, the Basque had DNA that was indistinguishable from that of other Iron Age Iberians. But Roman genes did not flow into Basque Country.
    After the fall of Rome, ancient DNA in Iberia reflects its medieval history. Skeletons from the Muslim era show growing ancestry from both North Africa and sub-Saharan Africa.

    Which brings us, just a millennium later, to the present. In February, Clare Bycroft of the Wellcome Trust Center for Human Genetics at the University of Oxford and her colleagues published a study of the DNA of 1,413 people in Spain.
    The team was able to identify pieces of North African DNA in people across Spain. The researchers estimated that the subjects’ North African ancestors lived about 800 years ago, during Muslim rule.
    The researchers were also able to group Spaniards into five genetic clusters. On a map, these groups form five strips running north to south. Those strips line up neatly with history.

    At the height of the Muslim rule, a few small Christian states survived on the northern coast of Spain. As Muslims lost power, those states expanded their southern borders, starting roughly 900 years ago.
    Up until now, wide swaths of time typically separated genetic studies of living people and those of ancient DNA. But now, in places like Iberia, the gaps are being filled in, creating an unbroken genetic chronology.
    “The two worlds are starting to merge,” said Dr. Bycroft.

    A version of this article appears in print on March 19, 2019, on Page D5 of the New York edition with the headline: Stories of Migrant Peoples, Written in DNA. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe

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    ^^

    The New York Time for issues of Spain both past and present is very imprecise and inaccurate and does not usually contrast the news.


    In current affairs usually screw up because you have to imagine what he will do in past issues.


    The last place we have to resort to the Iberians to know ourselves is the New York Time.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^

    The New York Time for issues of Spain both past and present is very imprecise and inaccurate and does not usually contrast the news.


    In current affairs usually screw up because you have to imagine what he will do in past issues.


    The last place we have to resort to the Iberians to know ourselves is the New York Time.
    ^^ Hi Carlos. Great hug my beloved friend :)

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    Have Reich said the following " A few centuries earlier, nomads from the steppes of what is now Russia turned up in Eastern Europe with horses and wagons. They spread across the continent, giving up nomadic life and intermarrying with European farmers. " Or is it the NYT Author's projection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Have Reich said the following " A few centuries earlier, nomads from the steppes of what is now Russia turned up in Eastern Europe with horses and wagons. They spread across the continent, giving up nomadic life and intermarrying with European farmers. " Or is it the NYT Author's projection?
    The part of the text that you emphasized and highlighted is linked to the following article by Carl Zimmer (2015):


    DNA Deciphers Roots of Modern Europeans

    For centuries, archaeologists have reconstructed the early history of Europe by digging up ancient settlements and examining the items that their inhabitants left behind. More recently, researchers have been scrutinizing something even more revealing than pots, chariots and swords: DNA.
    On Wednesday in the journal Nature, two teams of scientists — one based at the University of Copenhagen and one based at Harvard University — presented the largest studies to date of ancient European DNA, extracted from 170 skeletons found in countries from Spain to Russia. Both studies indicate that today’s Europeans descend from three groups who moved into Europe at different stages of history.
    The first were hunter-gatherers who arrived some 45,000 years ago in Europe. Then came farmers who arrived from the Near East about 8,000 years ago.
    Finally, a group of nomadic sheepherders from western Russia called the Yamnaya arrived about 4,500 years ago. The authors of the new studies also suggest that the Yamnaya language may have given rise to many of the languages spoken in Europe today.


    Ron Pinhasi, an archaeologist at University College Dublin who was not involved in either study, said that the new studies were “a major game-changer. To me, it marks a new phase in ancient DNA research.”
    The two teams worked independently, studying different skeletons and using different methods to analyze their DNA.


    The Harvard team collected DNA from 69 human remains dating back 8,000 years and cataloged the genetic variations at almost 400,000 points. The Copenhagen team collected DNA from 101 skeletons dating back about 5,400 years and sequenced the entire genomes.
    Both teams also compared the newly sequenced DNA to genes retrieved from other ancient Europeans and Asians, and to living humans.


    Until about 9,000 years ago, Europe was home to a genetically distinct population of hunter-gatherers, the researchers found. Then, 9,000 to 7,000 years ago, the genetic profiles of the inhabitants in some parts of Europe abruptly changed, acquiring DNA from Near Eastern populations.


    Archaeologists have long known that farming practices spread into Europe at the time from Turkey. But the new evidence shows that it wasn’t just the ideas that spread — the farmers did, too.





    The hunter-gatherers didn’t disappear, however. They managed to survive in pockets across Europe between the farming communities.


    “It’s an amazing cultural process,” said David Reich, a geneticist at Harvard Medical School who led the university’s team. “You have groups which are as genetically distinct as Europeans and East Asians. And they’re living side by side for thousands of years.”
    From 7,000 to 5,000 years ago, however, hunter-gatherer DNA began turning up in the genes of European farmers. “There’s a breakdown of these cultural barriers, and they mix,” Dr. Reich said.
    About 4,500 years ago, the final piece of Europe’s genetic puzzle fell into place. A new infusion of DNA arrived — one that is still very common in living Europeans, especially in central and northern Europe.
    The closest match to this new DNA, both teams of scientists found, comes from skeletons found in Yamnaya graves in western Russia and Ukraine.



    Archaeologists have long been fascinated by the Yamnaya, who left behind artifacts on the steppes of western Russia and Ukraine dating from 5,300 to 4,600 years ago. The Yamnaya used horses to manage huge herds of sheep, and followed their livestock across the steppes with wagons full of food and water.
    It was an immensely successful way of life, allowing the Yamnaya to build huge funeral mounds for their dead, which they filled with jewelry, weapons and even entire chariots.
    David W. Anthony, an archaeologist at Hartwick College and an author of the Harvard study, said it was likely that the expansion of Yamnaya into Europe was relatively peaceful. “It wasn’t Attila the Hun coming in and killing everybody,” he said.
    Instead, Dr. Anthony said he thought the most likely scenario was that the Yamnaya “entered into some kind of stable opposition” with the resident Europeans that lasted for a few centuries. But then, gradually, the barriers between the cultures eroded.


    The Copenhagen team’s study suggests that the Yamnaya didn’t just expand west into Europe, however. The scientists examined DNA from 4,700-year-old skeletons from a Siberian culture called the Afanasievo. It turns out that they inherited Yamnaya DNA, too.
    Dr. Anthony said he was surprised by the possibility that Yamnaya pushed out over a range of about 4,000 miles. “I myself have a hard time wrapping my head around explanations for that,” he said.

    The two studies also add new fuel to a debate about how languages spread across Europe and Asia. Most European tongues belong to the Indo-European family, which also includes languages in southern and Central Asia.


    For decades, linguists have debated how Indo-European got to Europe. Some favor the idea that the original farmers brought Indo-European into Europe from Turkey. Others think the language came from the Russian steppes thousands of years later.
    The new genetic results won’t settle the debate, said Eske Willerslev, an evolutionary biologist at Copenhagen University who led the Danish team. But he did say the results were consistent with the idea that the Yamnaya brought Indo-European from the steppes to Europe.
    The eastward expansion of Yamnaya, evident in the genetic findings, also supports the theory, Dr. Willerslev said. Linguists have long puzzled over an Indo-European language once spoken in western China called Tocharian. It is known only from 1,200-year-old manuscripts discovered in ancient desert towns. It is possible that Tocharian was a vestige of the eastern spread of the Yamnaya.
    “We can just say that the expansion fits very well with the geographical spread of the Indo-European language,” said Dr. Willerslev.


    Paul Heggarty, a linguist at the Max Planck Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology, said that the new studies were important but still too limited to settle the debate over the origins of Indo-European. “I don’t think we’re there yet,” he said.
    Dr. Heggarty noted that the studies showed the arrival of Yamnaya in Central Europe about 4,500 years ago. But Greek is an Indo-European language, and the oldest evidence of writing in Europe shows that Greek had developed about 3,500 years ago. By then, it was distinct from other Indo-European languages in Southern Europe, like Latin.


    If the Yamnaya were the source of Indo-European languages, they would have had to have reached southern Europe soon after they had made it to Central Europe.
    Dr. Heggarty speculated instead that early European farmers, the second wave of immigrants, may have brought Indo-European to Europe from the Near East. Then, thousands of years later, the Yamnaya brought the language again to Central Europe.



    More ancient DNA could swing the balance of evidence in favor of one theory over the other, Dr. Heggarty said. A stronger case for a steppe origin of Indo-European might emerge, for example, if scientists discovered that Greeks around 4,500 years ago abruptly acquired Yamnaya DNA.
    “Let’s see whether they look like the steppe people or not,” he said.


    Correction: Jan. 13, 2016The Matter column on June 16, about two studies of ancient European DNA extracted from skeletons found in countries from Spain to Russia, misstated the age of the skeletons from which a team from the University of Copenhagen analyzed DNA. The 101 skeletons dated back about 5,400 years, not 3,400 years. This correction was delayed because the error was only recently pointed out to editors.



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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    As I've been comparing mytrueancestry results with Iberians, I thought I might post some of the results here for whatever insights they might provide.

    Here are the samples. The first genetic "fit" is Carlos', the second is mine, and the third one is for Jovialis. The smaller the number the better the fit. I also have Duarte's and Stuvane's figures. Duarte gets numbers close to those of Carlos but a little bit worse in terms of fit, and Stuvane gets numbers similar to mine, with fits also a bit larger. Both have posted their results so you can easily look them up in the mytrueancestry thread. It's just getting very tedious looking all these numbers up, as well as being time consuming.

    Imperial Period:
    6. Roman Iberia Granada (300 AD) (16.5) - I3982 Angela (15.42)
    51. Roman Iberia Granada (350 AD) (22.96) - I3983 Angela (15.18) Jovialis (20.78)

    Early Medieval:

    40. Late Roman Iberia Granada (470 AD) (21.55) - I3575 Angela (13.51) Jovialis (17.51)
    Early Medieval Iberia Granada (500 AD) (17.63) - I3981 Angela (11.99) Jovialis (23.83)
    45. Late Roman Iberia Granada (500 AD) (22.0) - I3581 Angela (14.39) Jovialis (22.58)
    EarlyMedieval Iberian (670 AD) (14.53) - CL23 Angela: (9.671) Jovialis (24.17) I would be cautious about this. It comes from Collegno and I'm doubtful about the labeling by mytrueancestry.
    Early Medieval Iberia Granada (760 AD) (13.51) - I3585 Angela(15.1)

    Medieval Iberian Valencia (1100 AD) (15.42) - I2515 Angela (10.29 Jovialis (24.77)

    Later Medieval Iberia:
    19. Medieval Iberian Valencia (1120 AD) (16.75) - I2514 Angela 11.87 Jovialis (26.5)
    Medieval Iberian Valencia (1200 AD) (14.63) - I2649 Angela(15.54)Jovialis(27.14)
    17. Medieval Iberian Valencia (1200 AD) (16.53) - I2644 Angela 15.06 Jovialis (27.54)
    30. Medieval Iberian Valencia (1200 AD) (19.83) - I2647 Angela (15.84) Jovialis (24.22)

    Carlos doesn't seem to get results in the top 60 for these, which seems strange. Well, there are samples in the top 60 which aren't in ours.
    22. Late Roman Iberia Granada (500 AD) (14.83) - I3582 Jovialis (24.54)
    26. Late Roman Iberia Granada (470 AD) (15.17) - I3576 Jovialis (22.49)
    36. Early Medieval Iberia Granada (515 AD) (18.88) - I3980 Jovialis (20.48)

    In one case Carlos gets a better fit than I do. In the rest mine are closer, in a few cases by not very much, and in the rest by a lot. The fits for Jovialis are sometimes in between mine and those of Carlos, and in some cases they're the most distant.

    In other samples, like the Bell Beakers of France, central Europe etc., his scores are either better than mine and those of Jovialis or they don't even show up for us.

    Yet, on these samples we have some similarities.

    So, is it really ancient similarity, ie. Anatolian farmer like ancestry? We both have a lot of it. Is it also a signal that there is indeed Roman Era ancestry going into Iberia from the Italian peninsula, as the paper maintains? Yes, I think so, and Greek as well. I think it was most prominent in the east and south going by the settlement patterns, but we'd need more results from more Iberians and Italians.

    Did that "Roman" ancestry come from northern, central or southern Italy? I don't think there's any way to even get a hint from results like this. There could have been southerners who admixed over time.

    You would need to do some analyses to see if they were newcomers to the area or were at least local from birth, as was done in the Langobard paper.

    I don't know how universal these results are...I'm from Emilia and Eastern Liguria/Lunigiana. Stuvane is from the Romagna, and his fits are usually a little less close than mine but very similar, even the order is almost the same. However, there might be more northern Italians who get worse fits, or better ones for that matter.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post

    So, is it really ancient similarity, ie. Anatolian farmer like ancestry? We both have a lot of it. Is it also a signal that there is indeed Roman Era ancestry going into Iberia from the Italian peninsula, as the paper maintains? Yes, I think so, and Greek as well. I think it was most prominent in the east and south going by the settlement patterns, but we'd need more results from more Iberians and Italians.
    I think so as well, which I think is illustrated in my Genetic Similarity map. Outside of Italy, and the Northeastern Mediterranean basin; Iberia is closest. I think it has much to do with Roman, and Greek settlement there.


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    I get samples from Iberia in my Mytrueancestry.com, but they're Visigoths.

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    I think the fact that my map outlines the boarders of the Roman Empire in Europe is telling. This kind of ancestry in the Imperial-era circulated throughout the boarders. It is found in Northern Italy, Iberia, Hungary. Perhaps this south Italian/Greek-like people were a staple population in the colonies. I'm not sure if they were Romans themselves, perhaps they could be; many of the samples do overlap in the leaked PCA. Or perhaps populations that would accompany and mix with Romans to facilitate Romanization abroad. Sort of like how Scots, Irish, and Welsh people would help to build English settlements later in history.
    Perhaps some could have been descended from the prized-slaves. Nevertheless, this is all speculation, I can't wait to see the upcoming paper.


    There is also the spread of greek colonies to take into account.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I've been comparing mytrueancestry results with Iberians, I thought I might post some of the results here for whatever insights they might provide.

    Here are the samples. The first genetic "fit" is Carlos', the second is mine, and the third one is for Jovialis. The smaller the number the better the fit. I also have Duarte's and Stuvane's figures. Duarte gets numbers close to those of Carlos but a little bit worse in terms of fit, and Stuvane gets numbers similar to mine, with fits also a bit larger. Both have posted their results so you can easily look them up in the mytrueancestry thread. It's just getting very tedious looking all these numbers up, as well as being time consuming.

    Imperial Period:
    6. Roman Iberia Granada (300 AD) (16.5) - I3982 Angela (15.42)
    51. Roman Iberia Granada (350 AD) (22.96) - I3983 Angela (15.18) Jovialis (20.78)

    Early Medieval:

    40. Late Roman Iberia Granada (470 AD) (21.55) - I3575 Angela (13.51) Jovialis (17.51)
    Early Medieval Iberia Granada (500 AD) (17.63) - I3981 Angela (11.99) Jovialis (23.83)
    45. Late Roman Iberia Granada (500 AD) (22.0) - I3581 Angela (14.39) Jovialis (22.58)
    EarlyMedieval Iberian (670 AD) (14.53) - CL23 Angela: (9.671) Jovialis (24.17) I would be cautious about this. It comes from Collegno and I'm doubtful about the labeling by mytrueancestry.
    Early Medieval Iberia Granada (760 AD) (13.51) - I3585 Angela(15.1)

    Medieval Iberian Valencia (1100 AD) (15.42) - I2515 Angela (10.29 Jovialis (24.77)

    Later Medieval Iberia:
    19. Medieval Iberian Valencia (1120 AD) (16.75) - I2514 Angela 11.87 Jovialis (26.5)
    Medieval Iberian Valencia (1200 AD) (14.63) - I2649 Angela(15.54)Jovialis(27.14)
    17. Medieval Iberian Valencia (1200 AD) (16.53) - I2644 Angela 15.06 Jovialis (27.54)
    30. Medieval Iberian Valencia (1200 AD) (19.83) - I2647 Angela (15.84) Jovialis (24.22)

    Carlos doesn't seem to get results in the top 60 for these, which seems strange. Well, there are samples in the top 60 which aren't in ours.
    22. Late Roman Iberia Granada (500 AD) (14.83) - I3582 Jovialis (24.54)
    26. Late Roman Iberia Granada (470 AD) (15.17) - I3576 Jovialis (22.49)
    36. Early Medieval Iberia Granada (515 AD) (18.88) - I3980 Jovialis (20.48)

    In one case Carlos gets a better fit than I do. In the rest mine are closer, in a few cases by not very much, and in the rest by a lot. The fits for Jovialis are sometimes in between mine and those of Carlos, and in some cases they're the most distant.

    In other samples, like the Bell Beakers of France, central Europe etc., his scores are either better than mine and those of Jovialis or they don't even show up for us.

    Yet, on these samples we have some similarities.

    So, is it really ancient similarity, ie. Anatolian farmer like ancestry? We both have a lot of it. Is it also a signal that there is indeed Roman Era ancestry going into Iberia from the Italian peninsula, as the paper maintains? Yes, I think so, and Greek as well. I think it was most prominent in the east and south going by the settlement patterns, but we'd need more results from more Iberians and Italians.

    Did that "Roman" ancestry come from northern, central or southern Italy? I don't think there's any way to even get a hint from results like this. There could have been southerners who admixed over time.

    You would need to do some analyses to see if they were newcomers to the area or were at least local from birth, as was done in the Langobard paper.

    I don't know how universal these results are...I'm from Emilia and Eastern Liguria/Lunigiana. Stuvane is from the Romagna, and his fits are usually a little less close than mine but very similar, even the order is almost the same. However, there might be more northern Italians who get worse fits, or better ones for that matter.
    We really adjust, it must mean something is clear.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    We really adjust, it must mean something is clear.
    I've always wished time travel were possible, so I could visit all the time periods I've read about so often. Now I've added Roman Iberia and especially Medieval Iberiaan Valencia. A fit of 10.59 with an ancient sample is not bad! :)

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    Maybe one day you can capture images of the past, everything is possible. The truth is that these adjustments with the antiquity are surprising.

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    I found this study from a Spanish university. I think it's the same conclusion that was already known. But it's OK to start getting interested in these genetic issues.

    Science dismantles the myth of miscegenation: the population of southern Spain has hardly any DNA from North Africa

    The Kingdom of Granada was the last Islamic stronghold in the Iberian Peninsula. The eight centuries of Muslim domination supposed an Andalusian legacy that is manifested in the customs, speech or architecture of southern Spain, but not in the genetic heritage of the population. Bridging the myth of miscegenation, a study conducted by the University of Granada with individuals from the south of the Iberian Peninsula has found that the similarities between its DNA and that of the populations of North Africa are minimal.

    The study, published in the prestigious journal Scientific Reports, of the Nature group, has compared the genetic markers of the Y-chromosome -the specific of men- of the population of Granada, Málaga and Almería with that of the rest of Spain, Europe and the north of Africa. Researchers from the University of Granada have concluded that "it is difficult to identify any trace of the genetic legacy left by the ancient settlers."

    An "effective expulsion"
    This is the main author of this work, María Saiz Guinaldo, of the Genetic Identification Laboratory of the UGR, who explains this finding by the "effective expulsion" of the Muslim population in North Africa and "to repopulate the area with inhabitants from the rest of the Iberian Peninsula », since they left no more genetic legacy in these Spanish provinces than in other areas where they spent much less time.

    «Our results reveal that no African component has remained in the population of the south of the Iberian Peninsula, despite having been occupied by them for 800 years», warns María Saiz: «The presence of typically African haplogroups in the population of Granada, Malaga and Almeria is not significant when compared to the frequencies of these in European populations, both Mediterranean and northern Europe.

    https://sevilla.abc.es/andalucia/gra...tELLIMZ1ad3qJk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've always wished time travel were possible, so I could visit all the time periods I've read about so often. Now I've added Roman Iberia and especially Medieval Iberiaan Valencia. A fit of 10.59 with an ancient sample is not bad! :)
    My closest match is Bell Beaker Scotland (2145 BC) 3.668, and I have one from Girona, Spain, but a Visigoth, at 5.45

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The Moors did not colonize northern Iberia as lords but as slaves captured in Christian raids to the south and later in the Portuguese conquests in North Africa may account for much of the excess of North African DNA found there, because while in the south the Moorish women for belonging to the elite did not mixed with Christians, in the north they were among the Portuguese, known by having children with slave women (they populated Brazil with very little help from the Portuguese women, 60% of the mtDNA there is from brazilian indians, joining african mtADN and little remains for the Portuguese women). Astrologers, guitarists, alchemists (soap, alcohol,Perfumes...) and other agents of the thus said Arab cultural superiority may also have given a tiny help.
    Although Portugal be one of the genetically most homogeneous of the world or even the 1st when compared with others of the same dimension there are some minor differences, the Douro River valley is still today a genetic and dialectal border, in the rice-growing areas of the rivers Sado in the south and Vouga / Mondego in the center, the load of African DNA is superior to the rest of the population due to black workers that were taken there for they are resistant to malaria of the rice "marshes", in the archipelago of Madeira is the same perhaps due to the slaves who worked there in the sugar mills and not only, in the Islands of the Azores a case is the excess of Asian DNA on the island of corvo (founder effect ???).......
    The DNA of the moinantes, may have a say in all this it would be interesting that it had been analyzed.



  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by jose luis View Post
    Although Portugal be one of the genetically most homogeneous of the world or even the 1st when compared with others of the same dimension there are some minor differences, the Douro River valley is still today a genetic and dialectal border,
    Douro isn't a dialectal border, let alone genetic, just look at the dialectal map made by Instituto Camões who are probably the top authority on the matter.
    The biggest dialectal barriers in the country are the mountain systems, particularly the Estrela system and those that separate the litoral (Coimbra/Aveiro) from the interior (Viseu) such as Buçaco, Caramulo and so on
    http://cvc.instituto-camoes.pt/hlp/g...ia/mapa06.html


    We're not very homogenous, just look at any PCA and our cluster nearly totally overlaps that of Spain. Yet they are 5 times more than us. Saying we're nr1 is very wrong. Besides how can you say we're "1st homogenous in the world" and in the same sentence mention a genetic border within the country? You just contradicted yourself

    (Portugal in medium blue, plus additional Portuguese individuals)

    Also here's the K7 from a recent study on Iberia, Portuguese samples from Lisbon and Porto follow the same trends, but within each group there is considerable variation, greater than within some Spanish regions, which further emphasises we're not that homogenous



    Quote Originally Posted by jose luis View Post
    in the rice-growing areas of the rivers Sado in the south and Vouga / Mondego in the center, the load of African DNA is superior to the rest of the population due to black workers that were taken there for they are resistant to malaria of the rice "marshes"

    No offense, that sounds silly, I've never seen anything even remotely pointing to that. Care to provide us a genetic study or models that support that?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post


    I wonder how, where and when these steppe people got immunity against the plague, and what it was they had which the neolithic people didn't have, that made them replace the male population.
    The archeology didn't find signs of violence.
    There is clear signs of climate change that adversely impacted farming, which could lead to drought, famine, pandemics, etc.:

    https://www.heritagedaily.com/2018/0...history/120856

    The paleoenvironmental data for the Mediterranean and Europe indicate that between the 24th and 23rd centuries BCE, a period of greater aridity and dryness began globally, which could have had severe consequences for many of the planet’s societies, including droughts. At this time, the Iberian Peninsula saw the end of chalcolithic way of life and the abandonment of some of the most important sites with ditched enclosures, as now seems to be the case with Valencina de la Concepción. In broad strokes, this coincides with the end of the Old Kingdom in the Nile Valley, with a great crisis that brought about the end of the period of construction of the great pyramids.
    Pastoralists are not generally adept at overcoming walled/ditched fortifications, but could encircle and lay siege, while letting their herds loose to browse in the fields. A violent overthrow was not at all necessary, with a simple surrender, after the grain stocks had been exhausted, and the imposition of a new ruler(s) being a distinct possibility:

    After what seems like a long period in the reduction of activity in the 27th century BCE, the tholos of La Pastora was probably built, with very different architectural characteristics: without great slabs of slate, but with a roofed chamber with a false stone dome, an important technical and aesthetic innovation, and with a “heretical” orientation towards the south east, facing away from the sunrise. “It is very probable that these changes in the monumental architecture were due to were due to changes in the social and ideological sphere, including, perhaps, religious “heterodoxies”, the researcher adds.
    That there are no signs of violence, however, is simply not true:

    “In fact, the abandonment of the site seems rather abrupt, without a gradual transition towards a different social model. The possibility that the end of the Valencina settlement was due to a social crisis has been hinted at by the dates obtained from several human skulls separated from the rest of the skeletons in a pit in a Calle Trabajadores in Valencina”, states the director of the research group. According to the data obtained from the radiocarbon dating, all these individuals almost died at the same time, which opens the possibility of a violent episode (killing, crime or sacrifice). The fact that several of the skulls were treated in a ritual manner, showing marks of having had the flesh removed and that this ‘special’ mortuary deposit appears to be associated with the greatest collection of pottery beakers found on the site, suggests that the episode had great symbolic significance.
    The separated skulls could be the result of a ceremonial decapitation, bringing comparison to the later Celtic skull cult. It can't be excluded that the defeated rulers were sacrificed and the population expelled.

    These were found in the abandoned Montelirio tholos:

    "I think Marija's 'kurgan hypothesis' has been magnificently vindicated by recent work." --Lord Colin Renfrew, 4/18/2018.

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    @Ruderico.

    Forgive my being so stupid, but do you have any idea what populations the colors stand for in the AdmixtureK7 you refer to above? It would be nice if you could give me a key to that. (Son-in-law is Portuguese, by the way; that's why I am interested)
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    @Ruderico.

    Forgive my being so stupid, but do you have any idea what populations the colors stand for in the AdmixtureK7 you refer to above? It would be nice if you could give me a key to that. (Son-in-law is Portuguese, by the way; that's why I am interested)
    Not stupid at all, here's the breakdown:

    The green component is a lot higher in Italy than in Iberia or Western Europe, so I assume its central/eastern mediterranean related.
    The brown in basically north African, as is the yellow (for some reason it's split into two, one for Morocco and another for Algeria)
    Light Blue is what dominates W Europe, but not totally (they also have dark blue).
    Orange is Basque-like, so probably some sort of palaeohispanic reference.
    Dark blue totally dominates the Finnish samples, so NE European - in Iberia I suppose it's related to Germanic and/or Celtic settlement since I assume they'd get a good share of it when compared to us

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Not stupid at all, here's the breakdown:

    The green component is a lot higher in Italy than in Iberia or Western Europe, so I assume its central/eastern mediterranean related.
    The brown in basically north African, as is the yellow (for some reason it's split into two, one for Morocco and another for Algeria)
    Light Blue is what dominates W Europe, but not totally (they also have dark blue).
    Orange is Basque-like, so probably some sort of palaeohispanic reference.
    Dark blue totally dominates the Finnish samples, so NE European - in Iberia I suppose it's related to Germanic and/or Celtic settlement since I assume they'd get a good share of it when compared to us
    Thanks a lot.

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    The statements about the Douro as genetic border, were made by mr. Manuel Sobrinho Simões, elected in 2015 by the British magazine «The Patologist», as the most influential pathologist in the world. the popular Latin spoken in the Roman province north of the Douro was different from that spoken in the province to the south, this will be the basis of the two dialectal groups of European Portuguese, with the end of the administrative frontier the influence of geographical accessibility was felt to say that the old frontier continues today it is necessary to forget the Northern dialects that have overflowed south of the Douro.
    As to the homogeneity of the Portuguese population, I would like to draw attention to the post nº270 of this thread, the truth is that the study of the Portuguese autonomous groups has not yet been published. this homogeneity was affirmed in this last study on the Spanish autosomal groups and in a post of this thread.
    In the populations of the rice fields are visible the African traits (not to be confused with recent emigrants) and even have a folklore of their own in the Sado area is called "cantar ao ladrão" (in these songs it seems that they are accusing the Portuguese of being the thief) about their genetics maybe ipatimup or i3s might lend a hand, regarding location maybe a local association of rice producers or a major producer.

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