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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Doubt it, no reason for it to be distant if they're all so close to each other.
    The genetic evidence definitely lends support to the idea that they were quite closely related. It's just not attested very well, so the linguistic side leaves some room for doubt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    The genetic evidence definitely lends support to the idea that they were quite closely related. It's just not attested very well, so the linguistic side leaves some room for doubt.
    French Wikipedia says the Tartessians were perhaps related to Berbers, so maybe this is the origin of those North Africans?

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    What stands out to me:
    Seems like the Medieval Muslim population was almost a 50-50 mix between Europeans and Berbers, with seemingly no sex bias. The native Spaniards were probably considered full equals immediately after conversion.

    The Iberian Celts were autosomally closest to Basques, so present day Iberians are presumably largely pre-Celtic genetically like the insular Celts as well.

    All ethnic Greeks are like slightly West Asian shifted Sicilians, all ethnic Greek males belong to unresolved J.

    Visigoths are like eastern shifted Germans (so basically Hungarians) which is quite expected given their immediate origin. E-V13 in one sample is telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Iberians/Tartessians are exclusively L51 and the only Celt is I2a
    So Iberian and Basque came from the steppe, that would be what facts alone would point. Iron Age samples can be related with more security with languages, but the Oscar Zoroaster of genetics is doing a good job to change what he gets.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Any autosomes for those Tartessians? Would be interesting to see given before this afaik we had no "Gibraltan" (or thereabouts) aDNA.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok wait calm down. Where it is spoked about Solutrean and y-dna I1? Also where it is saying that they found R1b-L51? Is this in the Reich supps? I only see the mention of P312.

    Edit. Tho... i just noticed on Eurogenes. On two samples they have I1 and C1a1, C1a1 what the heck is that, is that a typo? It's like Franco-Cantabria is becoming interesting again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Now there's some interesting information. So, they lived "relatively" peacefully for 500 years before mixing? No apparent immediate butchery of all the men. Yet, the local y lines wiped out. Wish we knew what happened.
    Yes, this is very strange. Hard to imagine that girls would spontaneously have run into the arms of those foreign newcomers/invaders. And supposing they did, harder still to imagine that the local males peacefully agreed to be deprived of wives and progeny.
    It is therefore worth while to search out the bounds between opinion and knowledge; and examine by what measures, in things whereof we have no certain knowledge, we ought to regulate our assent and moderate our persuasion. (John Locke)

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Yes, this is very strange. Hard to imagine that girls would spontaneously have run into the arms of those foreign newcomers/invaders. And supposing they did, harder still to imagine that the local males peacefully agreed to be deprived of wives and progeny.
    Hello hrvclv, good morning.
    Male invading lions have a habit of killing the dominant males of a certain invaded group, as do all the puppies, and then mating with the females of the group they have mastered. These females passively, accept these invaders as his new partners. The DNA of the local males is totally extinct and what spreads in future generations is the DNA of the winning males, who are the strongest and the youngest.
    Well, I think that's true for lions and not for humans. But it is just an analogy. After all, we are also animals, and I am not sure when the values of civilization and humanity began to oppose those of gratuitous violence and barbarism and, presumably, from when in time we would have passed to go on to act as a specie civilized, intelligent and rational.
    Greetings :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Ok wait calm down. Where it is spoked about Solutrean and y-dna I1? Also where it is saying that they found R1b-L51? Is this in the Reich supps? I only see the mention of P312.

    Edit. Tho... i just noticed on Eurogenes. On two samples they have I1 and C1a1, C1a1 what the heck is that, is that a typo? It's like Franco-Cantabria is becoming interesting again.
    It succeeded the Solutrean culture didn’t it? Idk I thought it did but could be wrong

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    Can’t quote for some reason but Jews were in huge numbers in Spain and we know they mixed more than Ashkenazim, I’d be surprised if there isn’t a noticeable late medieval influence

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

    The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people.

    Getting back to the Spanish samples, I think we can see that indeed, as I've maintained for years, supported by the Chiarelli book on Muslim Sicily, the majority of the "Moors" who went to these places were not Levantine or Saudi, but North Africans. You can see it from the admixture analysis. The relative paucity of J1 in comparison to J2 and the E clades was another clue.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    An interesting question is posed by the presence of J2a here. 2/3 of these North African admixed J's have no Levant at all. You would think if it was Phoenician there would be a lot more "Levant" in them. Perhaps the early ones were Carthaginian remnants with carried the Levantine y but were mostly North African? As for the later ones, if the "Moors" were mostly North African but with some men from the Levant and there had been admixture that might explain it.

    Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.


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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by hrvclv View Post
    Yes, this is very strange. Hard to imagine that girls would spontaneously have run into the arms of those foreign newcomers/invaders. And supposing they did, harder still to imagine that the local males peacefully agreed to be deprived of wives and progeny.
    Yes, but even if that happened, strange as it seems, why wait 500 years to do it?

    What follows is rank speculation, so feel free to disregard. :)

    Could R1b males just produce more sons? Is that possible? If they did, could an advantage of just a few percent more each generation account for it?

    Or perhaps the "newcomers" kept up with their compatriots to the east who were adapting to the increased use of bronze weapons and that gave them an advantage? Yet, in places where their percentages were small, these Central European Beaker types seem even to have adapted the language of the locals.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    What stands out to me:
    Seems like the Medieval Muslim population was almost a 50-50 mix between Europeans and Berbers, with seemingly no sex bias. The native Spaniards were probably considered full equals immediately after conversion.

    The Iberian Celts were autosomally closest to Basques, so present day Iberians are presumably largely pre-Celtic genetically like the insular Celts as well.

    All ethnic Greeks are like slightly West Asian shifted Sicilians, all ethnic Greek males belong to unresolved J.

    Visigoths are like eastern shifted Germans (so basically Hungarians) which is quite expected given their immediate origin. E-V13 in one sample is telling.
    Good points.

    Do you remember all those discussions where people were vehement that the old maps showing "Celts" spreading out from Urnfield relatively late were wrong? :) Well, it seems they were right, and the "Celts" were the late arriving elites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

    The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people.

    Getting back to the Spanish samples, I think we can see that indeed, as I've maintained for years, supported by the Chiarelli book on Muslim Sicily, the majority of the "Moors" who went to these places were not Levantine or Saudi, but North Africans. You can see it from the admixture analysis. The relative paucity of J1 in comparison to J2 and the E clades was another clue.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    An interesting question is posed by the presence of J2a here. 2/3 of these North African admixed J's have no Levant at all. You would think if it was Phoenician there would be a lot more "Levant" in them. Perhaps the early ones were Carthaginian remnants with carried the Levantine y but were mostly North African? As for the later ones, if the "Moors" were mostly North African but with some men from the Levant and there had been admixture that might explain it.

    Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.
    Could the J2a be Visigothic or Roman as well? Two of the Muslims are actually not E-M81 but E-V13, so it looks like at least around half of their paternal lines were European.

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    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

    The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people.

    Getting back to the Spanish samples, I think we can see that indeed, as I've maintained for years, supported by the Chiarelli book on Muslim Sicily, the majority of the "Moors" who went to these places were not Levantine or Saudi, but North Africans. You can see it from the admixture analysis. The relative paucity of J1 in comparison to J2 and the E clades was another clue.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    An interesting question is posed by the presence of J2a here. 2/3 of these North African admixed J's have no Levant at all. You would think if it was Phoenician there would be a lot more "Levant" in them. Perhaps the early ones were Carthaginian remnants with carried the Levantine y but were mostly North African? As for the later ones, if the "Moors" were mostly North African but with some men from the Levant and there had been admixture that might explain it.

    Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.


    The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

    "The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people."
    Really? Did the Greeks not borrow the alphabet from Phoenicians?


    Did the Greeks not borrow sculpting from Egyptians?
    Did the Greeks not learn ship building from Arabs?
    Did the Greeks not learn Algebra from Arabs?
    Doesn't everyone else need to be credited for their contribution?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tutkun Arnaut View Post


    The "Celt" I2a could either be from an absorbed local or it could have come with the newcomers. What specific type is it? There was plenty of I2a in Europe, and we know the "Slavs", for one, absorbed one variety of it.

    "The Greeks certainly did start Western Civilization. Get out the history books, people."
    Really? Did the Greeks not borrow the alphabet from Phoenicians?


    Did the Greeks not borrow sculpting from Egyptians?
    Did the Greeks not learn ship building from Arabs?
    Did the Greeks not learn Algebra from Arabs?
    Doesn't everyone else need to be credited for their contribution?
    Yes, but there's a reason we in the West study the Greeks more than those cultures. Try to understand it.
    Last edited by markod; 15-03-19 at 23:44.

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    Pardon me for interrupting a most fascinating discussion about Ancient Iberian Dna but How can I see the tables S1 to S5 of the suplements, because when I open the supplements I am only able to see the titles of those same tables.

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    I wonder how close is the I2a Celt to the I-CTS10228 as currently I still favour the theory that it (or his ancestor) was brought to Northern Balkans and the Carpathians (as well as Poland) by the Celts or later by some East Germanic tribe.

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    The other Iberian paper, that about Mesolithic and early Neolithic... the intra HG admixture... is good to explain the "steppe" in Iberian BB??

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    Pardon me for interrupting a most fascinating discussion about Ancient Iberian Dna but How can I see the tables S1 to S5 of the suplements, because when I open the supplements I am only able to see the titles of those same tables.
    Try see the image through the link below:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d8j...ew?usp=sharing
    Last edited by Duarte; 15-03-19 at 21:26. Reason: Link address override

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Could the J2a be Visigothic or Roman as well? Two of the Muslims are actually not E-M81 but E-V13, so it looks like at least around half of their paternal lines were European.
    These particular samples are mixtures of "local" Iberian stock, however, admixed with North African and a bit of minority Levant admixture in some of them, so I don't see how that would work. The authors show the admixture of some of the more "Central and East Med" admixed people, who had about 25% of that kind of ancestry, but I don't think that has anything to do with these samples. Unless you mean that the J2 males were local Iberian autosomally with yDna from distant Greek and Roman ancestors?

    You make a good point about the E samles. Two from the 10th to 16th century, the Moorish period, are M78. I can't imagine that being brought by the North African half of their ancestry, so it must be y from the Iberian Iron Age, yes?

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    I believe the Celtiberian is I2-M26 which existed in Iberia as early as the Chalcolithic. By 2000 BC, most of Iberia had become R1b-M269 in my view, and this is what the 271 samples suggest. Notice that even in modern Spain and Portugal, the haplogroups which offset R1b are Middle Eastern or North African in origin, such as J2, which is heavy in Portugal and possibly introduced by Phoenicians among other later groups. E-M81 introduced from south of Gibraltar, as well as Rome and Greece who carried J2 as well as other Middle Eastern lineages. We're going to find I1 and R1a in Andalusia from the reconquista as northerners helped reclaim the south from the Moors. However, the Bronze Age suggests a militaristic group from central Europe who were rich in M269+ moving into Iberia. I don't necessarily think this was the period that formed the Basque (some diversity under Z209). Many of those men may have come from southern France from Roman times, which suggests that Bronze Age France (rich in M269+) was already speaking "Iberian" related languages before moving into the peninsula.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    These particular samples are mixtures of "local" Iberian stock, however, admixed with North African and a bit of minority Levant admixture in some of them, so I don't see how that would work. The authors show the admixture of some of the more "Central and East Med" admixed people, who had about 25% of that kind of ancestry, but I don't think that has anything to do with these samples. Unless you mean that the J2 males were local Iberian autosomally with yDna from distant Greek and Roman ancestors?

    You make a good point about the E samles. Two from the 10th to 16th century, the Moorish period, are M78. I can't imagine that being brought by the North African half of their ancestry, so it must be y from the Iberian Iron Age, yes?
    Yes, I meant the origin of the uniparentals only. E-V13 and J2a are in the pre-Muslim Visigothic sample already, and most of them are autosomally quite 'northern' still. My guess is they carried some of those 'Balkanic' or maybe 'Western Pontic' haplogroups into Spain and assimilated very quickly.

    The 4 males from early Visigothic Pla de l'Horta (Catalonia) are R1b-L51, E-V13, J2a and I. These were Visigothic 'big men' from one of the most important necropolises of the period.

    Some of the Visigoths have likely East Eurasian mtDNA too - C4a1a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Try see the image through the link below:

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1d8j...ew?usp=sharing
    Thanks. Ou melhor dizendo Obrigado.

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    According to the data 500,000 natives of the current Andalusia move to the north of Spain at the arrival of the Almohads. That figure is an overpopulation for the north of that time and there they were 800 years until they returned home. That number in 800 years are many children. Is not taken into account?

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