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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    Thanks. Ou melhor dizendo Obrigado.
    You’re welcome (ou, melhor dizendo, por nada, tu és muito bem vindo) :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yes, I meant the origin of the uniparentals only. E-V13 and J2a are in the pre-Muslim Visigothic sample already, and most of them are autosomally quite 'northern' still. My guess is they carried some of those 'Balkanic' or maybe 'Western Pontic' haplogroups into Spain and assimilated very quickly.

    The 4 males from early Visigothic Pla de l'Horta (Catalonia) are R1b-L51, E-V13, J2a and I. These were Visigothic 'big men' from one of the most important necropolises of the period.

    Some of the Visigoths have likely East Eurasian mtDNA too - C4a1a.
    That's certainly not what I expected for Visigoths, especially not the E-V13 and J2. I1 yes, and I would have thought possible some R1a or maybe R1b U106. The latter instead seems to be the Langobardi.

    It just goes to show how misleading uniparentals can be.


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    Visigoths did a good trek from actual Sweden, and many outlaws and outcasted could have added to the tribe in Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Italy... there are some accounts about that, Romans leaving civilization for ruthless barbarians, but free to pay taxes
    :)

    By the way, a lesson of hocus-pocus:

    For all the populations in this section with good coverage (Iberia_CA_Stp, Iberia_BA, E_Iberia IA, N_Iberia_IA), the model Iberia_CA + Steppe_EBA shows a poor fit (P-value<2.24E-02). This is not surprising because in this model all the European Neolithic-related ancestry in those populations is attributed to Iberia_CA, when in fact a portion of it must be derived from incoming populations that were not entirely Steppe_EBA in ancestry. However, using a fixed set of outgroups less sensitive to the differences between Neolithic European populations we can try to estimate the proportion of Steppe_EBA-related ancestry in our populations of interest. Table S12 and Fig. S6 show these estimates using the following set of outgroups: Mota, Ust_Ishim, Kostenki14, GoyetQ116-1, Vestonice16, MA1, EHG, Iran_N, Israel_Natufian, Anatolia_N, LBK_EN.
    Also the 100% replacement is wrong: 2 males from Arenas de Rey, Granada province (2200-2000 BC) aren't R1b.

    And well, even being a 99% R1b in Bronze Age and Iron Age Iberians against a I2a1, which ailas was a Celtiberian.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's certainly not what I expected for Visigoths, especially not the E-V13 and J2. I1 yes, and I would have thought possible some R1a or maybe R1b U106. The latter instead seems to be the Langobardi.

    It just goes to show how misleading uniparentals can be.

    Yeah, the Gothic 'big man' from a monumental kurgan in Crimea was J2a1a, too. Maybe the Germanics tended to be rather loose tribal federations like the Turkic groups for instance.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Visigoth I12034 had mtDNA haplogroup W6a, which is the same as my mtDNA haplogroup:



    It was previously identified as a "Proto-Slavic" mtDNA haplogroup in my mtDNA Wiki Report:


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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yeah, the Gothic 'king' from the monumental Tsarskiy Kurgan in Crimea was J2a1a, too. Maybe the Germanics tended to be rather loose tribal federations like the Turkic groups for instance.
    That's certainly a possibility. Could it also be possible that these two "strange" haplogroups were picked up in Iberia? The Greeks very probably brought both of these markers to Spain, certainly to northeastern Spain, the site of their largest settlement. The Visigoths may have been such a small group inititally that they absorbed some more "local" men.

    I wish this was more like that Langobard paper, which used data to tell us whether the samples were "new" arrivals or locals.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    In the battle of the Guadalete the Gothic army is 40,000 men, I do not know the ethnic composition of the army but I do not think that the Goths were excessively minority in that army.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    In the battle of the Guadalete the Gothic army is 40,000 men, I do not know the ethnic composition of the army but I do not think that the Goths were excessively minority in that army.
    The only way we'd know, Carlos, is to have a good number of ancient samples from that army.

    The four samples we have are from a Visigothic settlement. Perhaps it's not enough to come to hard and fast conclusions.

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    ^^
    I agree, I guess it was something more fat than you can believe today.

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    Visigoths come as exotic in terms of haplogroups and not really "Germanic",first the Bavarian imported "exotic gifts" woman with elongated skulls which resembled south-east Europeans,then now this "exotic" haplogroups among them again.

    Not to mention the Ostrogoth from Crimea or the Gepid from the same previous paper.

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    One Visigoth from Spain - I12031 - clusters with modern Serbs and has Balkan Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1a1b1a.

    This is Balkan haplogroup E-V13:

    https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/about

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    E-V13 and who knows what else. It is how the villages are forged, what is the surprise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Yeah, the Gothic 'big man' from a monumental kurgan in Crimea was J2a1a, too. Maybe the Germanics tended to be rather loose tribal federations like the Turkic groups for instance.
    I think Crimea could be held as an exception though, it's always been very multi-ethnic I'm guessing because of its position. In terms of hierarchy I'm not sure if Germanic tribes were "loose" or if they're more hierarchical like the Mycenaeans - I think it might come down to whether they live amongst the population they've conquered (in which case there'd be hierarchy) or if they're still marauding.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    Visigoths did a good trek from actual Sweden, and many outlaws and outcasted could have added to the tribe in Poland, Ukraine, Romania, Hungary, Italy... there are some accounts about that, Romans leaving civilization for ruthless barbarians, but free to pay taxes
    :)

    By the way, a lesson of hocus-pocus:



    Also the 100% replacement is wrong: 2 males from Arenas de Rey, Granada province (2200-2000 BC) aren't R1b.

    And well, even being a 99% R1b in Bronze Age and Iron Age Iberians against a I2a1, which ailas was a Celtiberian.
    Yeah I agree you can do a lot of "hocus-pocus" with autosomal fitting, tracking Y DNA is the final blow that's needed to consolidate any theory of migration it seems.

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    Something about the estimated size of those tribes:

    https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?...ew=1up;seq=100

    Documentary:


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    Sources say: in year 418 the Goths (or at least: some Goths) were in South-West France.

    At the same time, archaeology still shows evidence of Wielbark Culture existing in Poland.

    Wielbark Culture starts to disappear from archaeological record in Poland only around 450:

    http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/thesaur...lbark-culture-

    "Wielbark C. disappears from the archaeological record around mid-5th century"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's certainly not what I expected for Visigoths, especially not the E-V13 and J2. I1 yes, and I would have thought possible some R1a or maybe R1b U106. The latter instead seems to be the Langobardi.
    It just goes to show how misleading uniparentals can be.
    was it not the same with the Lombards?
    they started north as I1 and R1b-U106, but by the time they were in Central Europe they had absorbed a lot of I2a

    the Goths would have had ample opportunity to absorb E-V13 and J2 in the Carpathian Basin and the western Ukraine before crossing the Danube

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    I wonder how, where and when these steppe people got immunity against the plague, and what it was they had which the neolithic people didn't have, that made them replace the male population.
    The archeology didn't find signs of violence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    It looks like we've found Y DNA I1 in the Azilian culture and so Solutrean was likely I1 (and I2)!
    I don't think there was a connection between Azilian and Solutrean.
    Acording to archeology, Solutrean was replaced by Badegoulian.
    Badegoulian was replaced by Magdalenian ca 20 ka.

    Genetically Magdalenian was linked to the El Miron cluster, and now it is linked to 15 ka Goyet-Q2.
    Bichon was linked to Azilian in the Swiss Jura and belongs to Villabruna cluster.
    The Azillian in northeast Iberia now appears to be a genetic mixture between Magdalenian and Villabruna.

    in Y-DNA, Magdalenian was probably a majority of I and a minority of the Aurignacian-derived C1a2 (35 ka Goyet-Q116)
    the Villabruna Y-DNA was probably I2 with a minority of I1, they had some admixture from mesolithic/EN 10 ka Central Anatolian and/or 26 ka Dzdudzuana

    I think BAL003 C1a1a is a typo, it should be C1a2

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    Those E and J2 samples are clearly not ethnically Visigothic if we mean expanding outside Scandinavia. But Goths have encounter a lot of people in Dacia and Balkans. Are we dealing with a real elite Visigothic burial or is it the same joke as taking Assyrian Colony samples for Hittites ones?

    We need a real mathematical probability with that kind of stuffs. Longobards dna of Piedmont Italy and Hungary have also shows y-dna E, then Visigoths in Iberia.

    If we take the overall probable population at the time and the number of burials and their reflected haplogroups. Then E was more dominant or equal to I1 in the general population. How this can happen? and why E? E wasn't even a major Farmer haplogroup, it sounds like in plenty of paper the providential haplogroup that nobody expected shows up. There is plenty of possibilities to explain this actually.

    Exemple: The Burgundians were said to have been almost completely destroyed still in Central Europe, so they probably pick up wanderers with them to growing the numbers. The same with the Goths after they got severely defeated by the Huns, while over the Danube they had to absorbe new peoples to survive.

    It makes to me more sense than thinking those J2 and E guys were some Balkanic elite of a non-germanic tribe that became a noble of a germanic tribe. But still, for this few burials and samples and a that big population ( visigoths were more than a hundred thousands when entering in Spain ) how minor wanderer lineage would pop up over the lineage of the original stock.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I'm not sure why the V13 is so shocking, the Goths spent a lot of time in the Balkans, first in Dacia, later also in the Western Balkans. Evidently they assimilated portions of the local population and became quite diverse from an Y-DNA point of view. The balkans with it's high V13 presence had always been a major source of Roman soldiers, it would make sense that some of them would join the Visigoths that were used as troops by the Romans. Also makes sense they could become 'Big men' due to their military experience and skills.
    The Lombard cemetary that was published a while ago also had a V13, so clearly this is a recurring pattern.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So, the most Germanic of all five Visigoths with high coverage was I12163.

    Here is my model for this sample (not saying it is the best possible one), he was 2/3 Germanic + 1/3 South Euro:

    Swedish (Gotland) - 29.4%
    Danish (Jutland) - 25.6%
    Norway Finnmark - 3.4%
    German Lower Saxony - 1.8%
    North-East English - 4.2%
    Spanish Castilla Leon - 18.8%
    Portuguese - 1.6%
    East Med (Lebanese Shia) - 8%
    North Caucasian - 7.2%

    Visigoth I12032 had significant Celtic admixture (Welsh-like and Breton-like) as well as Scandinavian Germanic.

    In general, I12032 was 1/2 Celto-Germanic and 1/2 Southern European (mostly Iberian but also some East Med).

    Interestingly, at least two Visigoths had Paleo-Balkan ancestry. Apparently they absorbed it on their way to Iberia:

    Visigoth I12162 can be modeled as 1/3 Danish or North German (Schleswig), 1/5 South German from former Rhaetic-speaking areas (these South Germans are far from being pure Germanic), 1/4 North-East European (either Finnic, Baltic or Slavic - probably all three), over 10% Pre-Slavic Balkan (Bronze Age Croatia, Iron Age Bulgaria) and about 10% Sardinian (extra EEF admixture, likely also absorbed in the Balkans). He also had minor Asian admixture (from Huns etc.?).

    Visigoth I12031 - this one had around 1/4 Paleo-Balkan ancestry, also 1/4 North Italian (North-West - like Aosta, and North-Central - like Lombardy; maybe some French Gaulish too), 10% similar to modern North Albanians (so also Balkan likely), 1/5 to 1/4 North-East European (including some Slavic apparently, but not exclusively), 6% North Caucasus (Alans?), 5% local Iberian and 5% East Med (Druze).

    Visigoth I12034 - this one was ca. 80-85% Native Iberian, 10-15% Germanic (with some Celtic), 5% Slavic.

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    The Alans were integrated with the vandals who arrived in the current Andalusia. Integration must be a way of survival and more in those times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post


    I wonder how, where and when these steppe people got immunity against the plague, and what it was they had which the neolithic people didn't have, that made them replace the male population.
    The archeology didn't find signs of violence.
    There's been nothing about the plague being in Spain to my knowledge. Is it possible it had burned out by the time the majority of the Central European Beakers got there? However, it's possible they haven't tested the Spanish samples yet.

    There's also the fact that they didn't admix for about 500 years to consider. This is a different situation from the one in Central Europe, isn't it? Unless the plague, if it arrived at all, didn't arrive until then, but then, the women survived, so it still doesn't make sense to me.

    If it originated on the steppe (it's found today in marmosets there) then they may have slowly built up a resistance. Or, it may have been an immune gene to a certain pathogen in their environment which may have also coincidentally produced higher resistance to plague.

    The multi-ethnicity of the Visigoths helps to explain the results of the Ralph and Coop analysis based on IBD. They said they found almost no trace of the Visigoths in Spain, Italy, and even France. The impact may still have been small, but the lack of impact they found may also be due to the fact that they were looking for "Germanic" dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rafc View Post
    I'm not sure why the V13 is so shocking, the Goths spent a lot of time in the Balkans, first in Dacia, later also in the Western Balkans. Evidently they assimilated portions of the local population and became quite diverse from an Y-DNA point of view. The balkans with it's high V13 presence had always been a major source of Roman soldiers, it would make sense that some of them would join the Visigoths that were used as troops by the Romans. Also makes sense they could become 'Big men' due to their military experience and skills.
    The Lombard cemetary that was published a while ago also had a V13, so clearly this is a recurring pattern.
    It's more complexe than that. We need to separate the Linguistic and Ethnonymic reality ( Early Germans coming from Scandinavia ) and their evolution throughout their migration from Vistula / Oder -> Sarmatia / Dacia -> Greece / Pannonia and Aquitaine / Iberia. It's basically like, you take modern Afghans migrating to Europe, when they are in Europe, there is Afghans, Pakistanese, Syrians, Kurds along with them. What is being a Visigoth when Euric entered in Iberia? Being part of the Balti Dynasty? Being a Noblemen close to the Balti? Or being any people who followed them from the Balkans to Iberia? When we see Hungarian Lombars with R1b-S21 or any kind of I1, we clearly understand that they are from the original scandinavian / north german stock, but what is the history of a Visigothic J2a or E1b? This clearly a terminological work, what is being Visigothic at this point, a Loose Confederation or a Germanic tribe?

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