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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

  1. #101
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    The older native man had a way of looking at life very different from the newcomer, the integration between the two was not compatible with either side. Contunuously the local tribes had to move to other areas and start again, at a certain time they lived far enough apart so that 500 years would pass. These newly arrived men were continually bothering with destruction even to make their horses jump on small children and at the slightest opportunity they killed young children as a sport. The native man was in communion with nature, tribe and family and the newcomer had a vortex incomprehensible to the older natives, so they were putting distance, but sooner or later they were and everything started again until finally the number of natives would descend by extrés and by difficulty of being established in a stable and safe place so that already very depleted could have been absorbed at all.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    A logical explanation is that there was a caste system, which collapsed after 500 years.
    That would only be logical if the archaeology indicated that the "locals" were in a "lower" position within "newcomer" settlements. When you find such DATA be sure to share it.

    According to the authors, the two such groups co-existed for those 500 years.

    We saw exactly the same situation in Europe with the arrival of the Anatolian farmers. The "locals" retreated to the north/northeast. The ones who remained stayed in their ancestral settlements, usually at rivers where they continued their fisher/gatherer life style. This remained the case for almost 2,000 years. People forget that the Europe of these periods was relatively unpopulated. There were very few hunter or fisher/gatherers, so there was plenty of room for the Anatolian farmers to expand without conflict with the farmers.

    The only exception of which I'm aware is the presence of a low status hunter-gatherer in one of the oldest farmer settlements. An exception, however, does not a rule make.

    In the case of Iberia, it was the steppe admixed people who were the minority, very much so in places in southern Iberia. Since you love speculation so much, perhaps the newcomers, who relied more on herding, initially even took the poorer, higher elevation areas. That's what happened in italy with the Appennine settlement.

    Simplistic thinking devoid of nuance isn't helpful in these discussions. Nor is the anachronistic attribution of cultural artifacts or life styles to much more ancient societies. I would suggest that you and many others take a look at the archaeology of the Bell Beaker settlements and burial contexts in Central Europe. In the initial periods, they indicate much more primitive cultures than those they were encountering: bad copies of Beaker cups, wrist guards, and even bow and arrows.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That would only be logical if the archaeology indicated that the "locals" were in a "lower" position within "newcomer" settlements. When you find such DATA be sure to share it.

    According to the authors, the two such groups co-existed for those 500 years.

    We saw exactly the same situation in Europe with the arrival of the Anatolian farmers. The "locals" retreated to the north/northeast. The ones who remained stayed in their ancestral settlements, usually at rivers where they continued their fisher/gatherer life style. This remained the case for almost 2,000 years. People forget that the Europe of these periods was relatively unpopulated. There were very few hunter or fisher/gatherers, so there was plenty of room for the Anatolian farmers to expand without conflict with the farmers.

    The only exception of which I'm aware is the presence of a low status hunter-gatherer in one of the oldest farmer settlements. An exception, however, does not a rule make.

    In the case of Iberia, it was the steppe admixed people who were the minority, very much so in places in southern Iberia. Since you love speculation so much, perhaps the newcomers, who relied more on herding, initially even took the poorer, higher elevation areas. That's what happened in italy with the Appennine settlement.

    Simplistic thinking devoid of nuance isn't helpful in these discussions. Nor is the anachronistic attribution of cultural artifacts or life styles to much more ancient societies. I would suggest that you and many others take a look at the archaeology of the Bell Beaker settlements and burial contexts in Central Europe. In the initial periods, they indicate much more primitive cultures than those they were encountering: bad copies of Beaker cups, wrist guards, and even bow and arrows.
    With the Anatolian farmers and HGs, was it not the case that they were near each other but not within the same settlements? Whereas with the arrival of the Bell Beakers, they moved into pre-existing Iberian settlements? That's a big difference really, for two groups to be living side-by-side and not mixing requires a caste system or segregation. Even if I believe this to be true, it isn't necessarily the case that one group is above the other, though of course they were successful invaders so that is to be expected.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    You can claim that these Visigoths are mixed and I agree with users who say it, but they are still predominantly Germanic. And this after 500 years since they left their Scandinavian homeland and then travelled across half of Europe before reaching Iberia.

    These DNA results completely debunk the theory that Goths were just some "social construct of the Roman frontier".

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    @ maciamo

    sorry but in the other recent paper about Iberia there are four Cardial samples being already I2a1b...
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

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    Of castes nothing, is incompatible with Iberia yesterday, today and always. Nobility has been and is with in so many places.


    Yesterday I was walking through the quiet and I came across one of the old natives, it was very pure, it surprised me, our eyes met and then I understood everything. They had straight dark hair, pronounced cheekbones, marked features, eyes similar to those of La Dama de Eche but somewhat more round and brown. Gracil but not so much, were fibrados and strong, they were not easy adversaries. Look straight ahead and they are brave but without intending to start them a fight.


    Like water and oil, that man had no intention of integrating with the newcomers and therein lies his disappearance.


    Those of the Steppe attacked in group to the natives, their towns to all the tribe, but nevertheless fled and avoided the confrontation with a group of native men. It was the system of the newcomers to attack the family nucleus and the tribes but they withdrew if they had to fight with a group of native men who came out to meet them, that is what finally defeated them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    @ maciamo

    sorry but in the other recent paper about Iberia there are four Cardial samples being already I2a1b...
    I believe you, but sample ID?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am only finding time to reply now.

    A quick look at the haplogroups by period reveals that:

    New lineages that appear during the Chalcolithic include:

    - I2a1a-M26 and I2a1b-M423. Until the MLN, the I2 individuals all belonged to I2a2 - mostly the now rare Western European L1228 clade, but also to Z161.
    the other Iberian Paper found M26 in MLN Els Trocs, 5.9-5.65 ka

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    A logical explanation is that there was a caste system, which collapsed after 500 years.
    what made it collapse?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I believe you, but sample ID?

    copy&paste better
    ;)

    BAL0051 could be assigned to haplogroup I1, while BAL003 carries the C1a1a haplogroup. To the limits of our typing resolution,
    EN/MN individuals CHA001, CHA003, ELT002 and ELT006 share haplogroup I2a1b, which was also reported for Loschbour [73] and
    Motala HG [13], and other LN and Chalcolithic individuals from Iberia [7, 9], as well as Neolithic Scotland, France, England [9], and
    Lithuania [14]. Both C1 and I1/ I2 are considered typical European HG lineages prior to the arrival of farming. Interestingly, CHA002
    was assigned to haplogroup R1b-M343, which together with an EN individual from Cova de Els Trocs (R1b1a) confirms the presence
    of R1b in Western Europe prior to the expansion of steppe pastoralists that established a related male lineage in Bronze Age Europe
    [3, 6, 9, 13, 19]. The geographical vicinity and contemporaneity of these two sites led us to run genomic kinship analysis in order to
    rule out any first or second degree of relatedness. Early Neolithic individual FUC003 carries the Y haplogroup G2a2a1, commonly
    found in other EN males from Neolithic Anatolia [13], Starc¸ evo, LBK Hungary [18], Impressa from Croatia and Serbia Neolithic [19]
    and Czech Neolithic [9], but also in MN Croatia [19] and Chalcolithic Iberia [9].
    ok, I was too quick, the cardials were those from Cueva Chaves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    With the Anatolian farmers and HGs, was it not the case that they were near each other but not within the same settlements? Whereas with the arrival of the Bell Beakers, they moved into pre-existing Iberian settlements? That's a big difference really, for two groups to be living side-by-side and not mixing requires a caste system or segregation. Even if I believe this to be true, it isn't necessarily the case that one group is above the other, though of course they were successful invaders so that is to be expected.
    To the best of my recollection there is nothing in the paper which indicates that.

    It's very unwise to speculate based on facts which haven't been checked.

    If that "was" the case it would be helpful if you could direct us to the place where it is so stated.

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    from the paper "PLA DE L’HORTA (SARRIÀ DE TER, GIRONA): UNA NECRÓPOLIS CON INHUMACIONES VISIGODAS EN LA TARRACONENSE ORIENTAL", googletranslated:

    Concluding, in Pla de l'Horta we are facing
    a necropolis largely comparable to most
    of those that extend in the center of the peninsula
    Iberian and that responds to the most common parameters
    of this type of necropolis. Located near a large
    communication route (the Via Augusta) and a major river
    (the Ter), next to an old Roman villa,
    It extends over a flat, gently sloping ground
    towards the east, in the direction of the road and the river. Known
    in a partial way, it is composed of a minimum
    of 58 burials, none of them reused,
    most in pit and a few (16) in cist,
    other types of tomb being absolutely minority
    (a tegulae box and a sarcophagus). In one part
    important of the inhumations objects were recovered
    of typical Germanic ornamentation
    (brooches, buckles, fibulae ...), and its chronology
    could establish quite accurately between finals
    of the V century and the beginning of the VII as extreme dates.
    We do not doubt that we are in front of a cemetery
    unique in this area, used by elements of
    Goth origin and Arian confession, establishing
    so in this case a direct relationship between the type of
    necropolis and the ethnic-cultural characteristics of
    buried in it, an extreme that has sometimes
    questioned or has been relativized in other cases
    similar42. We do not know with absolute certainty the
    habitat of those buried in Pla de l'Horta, but the
    Visigoth presence in this region is more than enough
    justified given the proximity of the strategic city
    of Gerunda, the existence of a military castellum
    control of an important communication channel
    and, even, the possibility of reoccupation of an important
    Roman villa as was Pla de l'Horta.
    Finally, we can not escape that abandonment
    of the necropolis coincides roughly with
    the unifying provisions of Leovigildo and Recaredo
    and the conversion to Catholicism of the community
    goda Undoubtedly, the Visigoths of the region (except
    probably those who resided in it
    city ​​of Gerunda, which already had its own areas
    cemeteries) were buried thereafter
    elsewhere, perhaps in the old church of Sant
    Julià, but also, why not, in a cemetery
    common with the Hispano-Romans in the area, that we could
    locate in all probability in the neighbor and
    nearby necropolis of Les Goges, clearly dated

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    This Visigothic cemetery is a unicum in the region, not the best to do a time transect... but maybe very good data for an independent paper; well, there are many more local's cemeteries.

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    Another Global25 model for Visigoths, I used in total 17 reference populations in this run:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Poprad_Medieval Scythian_Ukraine Iberia_North_IA
    3.701866 4.888225 4.947389
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP Scythian_Moldova Balkans_BA
    5.069968 5.216240 5.797893
    Slavic_Bohemia Iberia_East_IA
    5.916174 5.990847

    [1] "distance%=1.2088" - distance is very good

    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

    Poprad_Medieval - 23% (East Germanic from Slovakia)
    Scythian_Ukraine - 16%
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 12.2%
    Sweden_Viking_Age - 10.2%
    Iberia_East_IA - 10%
    Balkans_IA - 7.6%
    Nordic_IA - 6.6%
    Scythian_Moldova - 6%
    Mycenaean - 4.8%
    Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 2%
    Slavic_Bohemia - 1.6%

    Reference populations used (do you think I should add something more and try again?):

    Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av1
    Avar_Hungary_Szolad:Av2
    Avar_Hungary_Szolad
    Nordic_IA
    Balkans_IA
    Balkans_BA
    Slavic_Bohemia
    Iberia_North_IA
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP
    Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
    Iberia_East_IA
    Baltic_IA
    Scythian_Ukraine
    Scythian_Moldova
    Sweden_Viking_Age
    Poprad_Medieval
    Mycenaean

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    what made it collapse?
    No idea, but I think a caste system is the most likely explanation by far especially as we know IEs implemented them all over the place.

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    Another model also 17 pops but Poprad_Medieval removed and Germany_Medieval added:

    [1] "distance%=1.1958"

    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

    Germany_Medieval - 30.8%
    Scythian_Ukraine - 16.2%
    Iberia_East_IA - 14.6%
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 13.2%
    Balkans_IA - 10.2%
    Scythian_Moldova - 8.4%
    Slavic_Bohemia - 6.2%
    Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 0.4%

    And when using both Poprad_Medieval and Germany_Medieval (in total 18 reference pops):

    [1] "distance%=1.1498"

    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

    Germany_Medieval - 20.2%
    Scythian_Ukraine - 16%
    Poprad_Medieval - 14.6%
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 12%
    Iberia_East_IA - 11.8%
    Balkans_IA - 8.2%
    Scythian_Moldova - 5.4%
    Sweden_Viking_Age - 4.6%
    Mycenaean - 3.8%
    Slavic_Bohemia - 3%
    Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 0.4%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    To the best of my recollection there is nothing in the paper which indicates that.

    It's very unwise to speculate based on facts which haven't been checked.

    If that "was" the case it would be helpful if you could direct us to the place where it is so stated.
    I'm too lazy really but check here - http://homeland.ku.dk/ - it gives the exact location of the samples, so go to around like the 2500 BCE mark and zoom in all the way to the red shapes (Steppe) and you'll see basically all of them are in the same settlements as the yellow shapes (Farmer). The new study has many more samples but it'll be the same thing - the archaeology is pretty clear anyway that Bell Beakers were limited to certain clusters of sites and not spread diffusely.

    Also, why is it so "unwise" - there's no reason to be so snarky, I'd prefer if I was wrong that you made me look like an idiot instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Another model also 17 pops but Poprad_Medieval removed and Germany_Medieval added:

    [1] "distance%=1.1958"

    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

    Germany_Medieval - 30.8%
    Scythian_Ukraine - 16.2%
    Iberia_East_IA - 14.6%
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 13.2%
    Balkans_IA - 10.2%
    Scythian_Moldova - 8.4%
    Slavic_Bohemia - 6.2%
    Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 0.4%

    And when using both Poprad_Medieval and Germany_Medieval (in total 18 reference pops):

    [1] "distance%=1.1498"

    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

    Germany_Medieval - 20.2%
    Scythian_Ukraine - 16%
    Poprad_Medieval - 14.6%
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 12%
    Iberia_East_IA - 11.8%
    Balkans_IA - 8.2%
    Scythian_Moldova - 5.4%
    Sweden_Viking_Age - 4.6%
    Mycenaean - 3.8%
    Slavic_Bohemia - 3%
    Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE - 0.4%
    Have you taken a look at the Ostrogothic guy from Kerch?

    I really hope someone from the prominent teams takes a look at Jastorf, so we get an idea what the earliest discernible Germanic groups looked like.

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    I should not use Scythians_Ukraine average because it was an internally diverse group.

    I will remove Scythians and try again. Or try with individual Scythians instead of average.

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    Ukrainian Scythians removed from the model, but I still included Scythians Moldova (400-200 BC):

    [1] "distance%=1.2278"

    Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL

    Germany_Medieval - 19.8%
    Poprad_Medieval - 14.6%
    Iberia_Northeast_RomP - 14.2%
    Slavic_Bohemia - 11.8%
    Iberia_East_IA - 11%
    Scythian_Moldova - 11%
    Sweden_Viking_Age - 7.4%
    Mycenaean - 5.6%
    Balkans_IA - 4.6%

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Gotaland refers to Gutes afaik. A North Germanic people.
    So the Gutes are not the Goths, but the Goths did spoke a confirmed Germanic Language? Common bro, i know you want to challenge ideas and it's a good thing, but not in those kind of exemple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The authors say the two groups co-existed for about 500 years before admixed people show up. I don't understand it, but that's what the samples show.
    but isn't this strange when you look at the graphics? during those 500 years only 2 people are near 100% and they aren't even the earliest samples of the newcomers. all other samples in those 500 years are already mixed with something else. they are only roughly 60-70% central euro bb. so if those are actually unmixed invaders then they must have contributed way more than 40% admixture at the end of those 500 years so that the resulting population has only 20% less average central euro beaker.

    is it stated in the paper that they did not already start to mix during those 500 years or even earlier? i only found pieces of the paper like this one
    "The earliest evidence is in 14 individuals dated to ~2500–2000 BCE who coexisted with local people without Steppe ancestry (Fig. 2B). These groups lived in close proximity and admixed to form the Bronze Age population after 2000 BCE with ~40% ancestry from incoming groups (Fig. 2B and fig. S6)."

    that could mean that the unmixex farmer group and a already mixing imigrant group were coexisting for 500 years then after 500 years there simply were no unmixed farmers left.
    Last edited by Ailchu; 18-03-19 at 01:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    So the Gutes are not the Goths, but the Goths did spoke a confirmed Germanic Language? Common bro, i know you want to challenge ideas and it's a good thing, but not in those kind of exemple.
    Geates/Gutes are the ancestors of the Swedes, i. e. North Germanics. Goths are East Germanic.

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    But if BB's coming from Steppe through central europe, cohabited with local BB's / local Iberians. How to explain the shift, both in Iberia and the British Islands of y-dna? What kind of social pressure could have been on local men to completely disappear? I mean it's certainly not a coincidence that everywhere where R1a and R1b went, they became dominant? Is it really just nature? Where they physically monsters comparing to their local opponents? Now why did that happened in British Islands, Continental Europe, Eastern Europe and India, but not in Greece and Anatolia? R1b is still the dominant y-dna in modern Greece, modern Armenia and the second after J in Anatolia. So what can explain this, but sample bias? The Greek guy from Empuries probably did spoke Greek, but his genetic is clearly of local Peloponnese-Minoan origin, without Steppe input.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    But if BB's coming from Steppe through central europe, cohabited with local BB's / local Iberians. How to explain the shift, both in Iberia and the British Islands of y-dna? What kind of social pressure could have been on local men to completely disappear? I mean it's certainly not a coincidence that everywhere where R1a and R1b went, they became dominant? Is it really just nature? Where they physically monsters comparing to their local opponents? Now why did that happened in British Islands, Continental Europe, Eastern Europe and India, but not in Greece and Anatolia? R1b is still the dominant y-dna in modern Greece, modern Armenia and the second after J in Anatolia. So what can explain this, but sample bias? The Greek guy from Empuries probably did spoke Greek, but his genetic is clearly of local Peloponnese-Minoan origin, without Steppe input.
    Having to correct the incredible inaccuracies in all of your posts is becoming very tiresome.

    The Greek guy from Empuries is specifically stated and shown to be very close to Mycenaeans. Mycenaeans were about 10-20% Steppe. Therefore, he was about 10-20% steppe.

    This is not rocket science, for God's sake.

    And who the heck told you that R1b is the dominant yDna in Greece? Where in hell do you get this crap?????

    The most dominant y line in Greece is E-V13. Second is J2. Only then does R1b show up.

    LOOK AT THE CHART.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

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