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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

  1. #126
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    but isn't this strange when you look at the graphics? during those 500 years only 2 people are near 100% and they aren't even the earliest samples of the newcomers. all other samples in those 500 years are already mixed with something else. they are only roughly 60-70% central euro bb. so if those are actually unmixed invaders then they must have contributed way more than 40% admixture at the end of those 500 years so that the resulting population has only 20% less average central euro beaker.

    is it stated in the paper that they did not already start to mix during those 500 years or even earlier? i only found pieces of the paper like this one
    "The earliest evidence is in 14 individuals dated to ~2500–2000 BCE who coexisted with local people without Steppe ancestry (Fig. 2B). These groups lived in close proximity and admixed to form the Bronze Age population after 2000 BCE with ~40% ancestry from incoming groups (Fig. 2B and fig. S6)."

    that could mean that the unmixex farmer group and a already mixing imigrant group were coexisting for 500 years then after 500 years there simply were no unmixed farmers left.
    That's correct Ailchu. I expressed myself badly.

    As you can see in the graphic the unmixed farmers, including males, existed for 500 years, and only then disappeared. It doesn't at all look like a whole sale slaughter when they arrived. Nor does it look gradual in terms of the numbers.
    [IMG][/IMG]


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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Graphics for some information we haven't discussed.

    Phenotype snps:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    The red dotted line represents the frequencies of the Iberian samples in 1000 genomes. It doesn't seem that steppe people brought lactase persistence with them. What could have caused the selection in the last 2000 years is beyond me.

    Changes in mtDna and yDna over time since the Bronze/Iron Age. More samples may change the picture somewhat, but I'm surprised there was only 25% H in the Bronze/Iron, and how much in the 10-16th centuries. Where did it come from, or was it selection? In Maciamo's charts, H is today about 41% of the total in Spain.

    I'm also surprised there's no yDna "J" until the 3rd century C.E. If the Phoenicians had made an impact you would think it would have shown up before that. It may be it was actually Carthaginians who settled there to some extent, not Phoenicians.



    [IMG][/IMG]

    It would have been nice to see this in the regular part of the paper;

    [IMG][/IMG]



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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Have you taken a look at the Ostrogothic guy from Kerch?
    Yes, but do you know why exactly was that described as "Ostrogothic"?

    Did something in that grave indicate culturally Gothic (genetically not Gothic for sure)?

    I think Kerch was never under Gothic rule.

    That guy was probably a descendant of Bosporan Kingdom's population:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosporan_Kingdom


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    Any attempts of modeling Goths as a mix of other ancient groups should reflect their migration path:

    https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map...#4/51.13/28.86


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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.


    Pretty cool video for the study.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    One alternative possibility is that local Iberian women preferred the central European newcomers in a context of "strong social stratification," said Lalueza-Fox.

    Lol basically a polite way of saying Bronze Age gold-diggers :P
    I always thought that was a strong possibility: slaughters and warfare casualties disproportionately affecting males, but also subsequent social hierarchy that made most local males "unfit for marriage", and those that were able to find partners and get them pregnant were mostly too unprivileged to be able to raise large families, which in times of very high mortality (and especially infant mortality) meant that their lineages were under really high risk of disappearing at every plague or war.

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    ha! who is the R1b guy 100% steppe by 0 AD?
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.
    By the late, declining stage of the Muslim rule in Iberia the society had become very fractured among Arab, Berber and native factions, with frequente ethnic tensions (even between the Muslim elite members themselves, Arabs and Berbers were not in unison), and probably less inclusive and much more "caste-like". That would help explain why most of the admixture happened in the early and most glorious period, and not later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    the other Iberian Paper found M26 in MLN Els Trocs, 5.9-5.65 ka
    You are right. Els Trocs is in the Pyrenees, just across the French border, so it is not exactly representative of the Iberian peninsula though. This sample is barely a few hundred years older than the Chalcolithic samples from this study. We would still need to figure out exactly how and when M26 got to Iberia.

    Actually there is another M26 from MLN in this study that I had missed. It is from the Dolmen de Ansião in Leiria, in central Portugal and is dated 3700-3000 BCE.

    Interestingly all the Chalcolithic I2a1a-M26 in the new study are from Portugal (Lisboa or Evora, including Bell Beaker sites) except one from El Mirador near Burgos in Castilla y Leon.

    In contrast, the I2a1b-M426 show up in SW, SE, Central and NE Iberia (i.e. in all regions sampled).

    At first sight it would appear that they did not spread to Iberia together, as they followed different settlement patterns. But copper metallurgy first appeared in southern Iberia, including the Lisboa and Evora region. M26 later spread to the Atlantic façade of Europe, probably in part with with the Bell Beaker network. The question is where did M26 come from before it got to Portugal? Italy, Greece? Or is it just a coincidence? M26 was already in Portugal just before the Chalcolithic, during the Megalithic period. Therefore, it could be that only G2a-L140 (Z1903) and I2a1b-M426 brought metallurgy from Italy to southern Iberia and M26 just got absorbed in the process?
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    for Muslims and Y DNA it's good to remember that sharia allows mariages between Muslim men and Christian women, but forbids the inverse.

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    also a good chunk of African/Levantine DNA must be ancient: Phoenicians, Punics, Blastophoenicians...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Having to correct the incredible inaccuracies in all of your posts is becoming very tiresome.

    The Greek guy from Empuries is specifically stated and shown to be very close to Mycenaeans. Mycenaeans were about 10-20% Steppe. Therefore, he was about 10-20% steppe.

    This is not rocket science, for God's sake.

    And who the heck told you that R1b is the dominant yDna in Greece? Where in hell do you get this crap?????

    The most dominant y line in Greece is E-V13. Second is J2. Only then does R1b show up.

    LOOK AT THE CHART.
    https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
    Minoan_Lasithi 30.8%
    Protoboleraz_LCA 28.45%
    Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 25.1%
    Vinca_MN 13.05%
    Hajji_Firuz_ChL 2.6%

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    Changes in mtDna and yDna over time since the Bronze/Iron Age. More samples may change the picture somewhat, but I'm surprised there was only 25% H in the Bronze/Iron, and how much in the 10-16th centuries. Where did it come from, or was it selection? In Maciamo's charts, H is today about 41% of the total in Spain.
    the fault is that insane way to proceed, mixing outliers is mad, but mixing different territories with different histories just by do a transect in a given region is unprofessional, if do you look at Iberians, mtDNA H is already in actual levels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That's correct Ailchu. I expressed myself badly.

    As you can see in the graphic the unmixed farmers, including males, existed for 500 years, and only then disappeared. It doesn't at all look like a whole sale slaughter when they arrived. Nor does it look gradual in terms of the numbers.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    judging from the graph, I'd say the number of unadmixed and the non-R1b Y-DNA is gradually getting thinner during the last 300 years
    taking into account there were also steppe females, 40 % autosomal turnover is hughe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Graphics for some information we haven't discussed.

    Phenotype snps:

    [IMG][/IMG]

    The red dotted line represents the frequencies of the Iberian samples in 1000 genomes. It doesn't seem that steppe people brought lactase persistence with them. What could have caused the selection in the last 2000 years is beyond me.
    A lactase persistence
    B blue eyes
    C & D skin tone

    correct?

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    for Muslims and Y DNA it's good to remember that sharia allows mariages between Muslim men and Christian women, but forbids the inverse.
    men always want to reproduce their Y DNA

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    By the late, declining stage of the Muslim rule in Iberia the society had become very fractured among Arab, Berber and native factions, with frequente ethnic tensions (even between the Muslim elite members themselves, Arabs and Berbers were not in unison), and probably less inclusive and much more "caste-like". That would help explain why most of the admixture happened in the early and most glorious period, and not later.
    also keep in mind that Al-Andalus was taken over by the Almoravide dynasties from Morrocco
    these Almoravides were much more fundamentalistic Muslims than the original Muslim invaders in the 8th century, and they were much less tolerant to non-Muslims

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    You are right. Els Trocs is in the Pyrenees, just across the French border, so it is not exactly representative of the Iberian peninsula though. This sample is barely a few hundred years older than the Chalcolithic samples from this study. We would still need to figure out exactly how and when M26 got to Iberia.

    Actually there is another M26 from MLN in this study that I had missed. It is from the Dolmen de Ansião in Leiria, in central Portugal and is dated 3700-3000 BCE.

    Interestingly all the Chalcolithic I2a1a-M26 in the new study are from Portugal (Lisboa or Evora, including Bell Beaker sites) except one from El Mirador near Burgos in Castilla y Leon.

    In contrast, the I2a1b-M426 show up in SW, SE, Central and NE Iberia (i.e. in all regions sampled).

    At first sight it would appear that they did not spread to Iberia together, as they followed different settlement patterns. But copper metallurgy first appeared in southern Iberia, including the Lisboa and Evora region. M26 later spread to the Atlantic façade of Europe, probably in part with with the Bell Beaker network. The question is where did M26 come from before it got to Portugal? Italy, Greece? Or is it just a coincidence? M26 was already in Portugal just before the Chalcolithic, during the Megalithic period. Therefore, it could be that only G2a-L140 (Z1903) and I2a1b-M426 brought metallurgy from Italy to southern Iberia and M26 just got absorbed in the process?
    afaik this M26 form Els Trocs is the earliest identified

    there is a lot I2a1b indeed, and I wonder whether some of them wouldn't be unidentified I2a1b1-L161
    I2a1b1-L161 was in EN Els Trocs and later it has been identified in many megalithic sites, and also in the earliest farmers on the British Isles


    others are I2a-Z161 and R1b-V88, the last in EN Els Trocs
    both were identified earlier in the Iron Gates
    it seems to me they originated there and ca 7 ka came along with Cardial Ware

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Graphics for some information we haven't discussed.
    Changes in mtDna and yDna over time since the Bronze/Iron Age. More samples may change the picture somewhat, but I'm surprised there was only 25% H in the Bronze/Iron, and how much in the 10-16th centuries. Where did it come from, or was it selection? In Maciamo's charts, H is today about 41% of the total in Spain.
    I'm also surprised there's no yDna "J" until the 3rd century C.E. If the Phoenicians had made an impact you would think it would have shown up before that. It may be it was actually Carthaginians who settled there to some extent, not Phoenicians.
    [IMG][/IMG]
    yes, that striked me too
    before arrival of Greeks and Carthago, Iberia must have remained almost 100 % R1b
    and Romans and Muslims must have had a larger impact than Greeks and Carthago

    most of it R1b-DF27
    but in the SW of Iberia (Tartessian) we have today R1b-U152, I cannot imagine this is a late arrival, it must have been 4.5-4 ka
    and what about R1b-L21? did they arrive 4.5-4 ka or later, during the Atlantic bronze age?

    as for mtDNA H, there seems to be a correlation with the blue eyes, but that is probably a mere coincidence
    it looks the Muslims also brought U6 to Iberia
    Last edited by bicicleur; 18-03-19 at 15:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    men always want to reproduce their Y DNA
    correct, but under sharia and some generations, a 10% Muslim males will become a 50 or even a 90 as long as their daughters will not be available for Christians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    correct, but under sharia and some generations, a 10% Muslim males will become a 50 or even a 90 as long as their daughters will not be available for Christians.
    it is happening in Europe today

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    I am reading your opinions, and simply as an amateur, I can say history is history, and facts are facts... Western part of Iberia (Galicia, Portugal, Leon and Extremadura) seems to have the biggest E-M81 impact. If this impact is because of Muslim period, it has non sense at all. Actual Asturias, Cantabria, Leon, North Portugal and Galicia (the Suevian-Gallicense Kingdom - the Roman Gallaecia) were not settled by muslims... muslims took these regions only between 714 and 740. Cities like Lugo, Tuy, Oporto, Braga, Chaves, Salamanca, Zamora and Leon were ocupied by Alfonso I, and muslim territory was away Duero river as soon as in 750... These regions were under muslim rule only 10-20 years... how could it be so much impact of E-M81, much more than regions under muslim rule for more than 300-400 years??? This has no sense at all. It is documented that christians refugees from actual Morocco arrived at NorthWestern Iberia very early (740 Bishop Odoario "and his people" to Lugo for example). I wonder if Northwestern Iberia, as being origin of resistance against muslims, could became a place where christians refugees of other parts of Iberia and even actual Morocco arrived, and that would be the origin of the E-M81 presence in there, as genetic studies date the impact of berber admixture in Iberia about 9th century (2nd and 3rd generation after their arrival, when these "refugees" mixed with autochtonous people). It´s just a theory, I would not understand another explanation in only 10-20-30 years of muslim rule in Northwestern Iberia.

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    but I can't understand how happened autosomaly in St. Julia de Ramis, as Girona was under Arab rule 70 years only, but the samples come from an ancient Visigoth castle on the top of a hill, not an usual farmer village on the plain.

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    @ Davidtab, also there were many clashes among Arab and Berber tribes as to know who got booty or ruled a rich city, maybe some of such clashes were endless and some tribes sook refuge among Christians, there are many possibilities.

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    in fact, the post-Islamic samples from L'Esquerda are devoid of African autosomal

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