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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
    Minoan_Lasithi 30.8%
    Protoboleraz_LCA 28.45%
    Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 25.1%
    Vinca_MN 13.05%
    Hajji_Firuz_ChL 2.6%
    And that proves that most of the amateurs who play around with these tools don't know what they're doing. They just throw populations into the mix until they get the result they want. He plots a hair's breath east of Mycenaeans

    "In PCA (Fig. 1C-D), most of the individuals from Empúries form two clusters: one (which we call Empúries1) plotting close to the Iron Age Iberia cluster that includes samples from the nearby site of Ullastret and the other(which we call Empúries2) plotting close to Bronze Age samples from the eastern Mediterranean such as the Mycenaean samples from Greece".


    Is that clear enough for you people?


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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    A lactase persistence
    B blue eyes
    C & D skin tone

    correct?
    Yes, that's right. As you can see the average for Iberians today is about 45% for lactase persistence. I have no idea what caused the selection in the last 2000 years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    yes, that striked me too
    before arrival of Greeks and Carthago, Iberia must have remained almost 100 % R1b
    and Romans and Muslims must have had a larger impact than Greeks and Carthago

    most of it R1b-DF27
    but in the SW of Iberia (Tartessian) we have today R1b-U152, I cannot imagine this is a late arrival, it must have been 4.5-4 ka
    and what about R1b-L21? did they arrive 4.5-4 ka or later, during the Atlantic bronze age?

    as for mtDNA H, there seems to be a correlation with the blue eyes, but that is probably a mere coincidence
    it looks the Muslims also brought U6 to Iberia
    If I interpreted the text correctly, they propose that Greek and Roman dna constitutes on average about 25% of the modern genome of Iberians, which is contrary to what "everyone" had been saying for so long.

    While the northeast is only about 2% North African, the rest of the country ranges from 6-9%, with the Portuguese at 10%, so yes, the Central and East Med portion is higher, but of course the cause of that is the brutal expulsion and murder of hundreds of thousands of people.

    Perhaps the R1b-U152 and L21 are Urnfield derived, that later pulse from Central Europe? There was probably a good bit of U-152 in the Romans as well.

    I've always thought H has some advantageous characteristics. It has steadily increased in Europe since the Neolithic.

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    Without entering the current feminist e.t.c. And referring to the ancient or relatively old times I think that H is a more submissive and complacent female in her familiar attitude to a male than other haplogroups such as J1c according to what I know so that it is a more dominant female in terms of tribal or family relationships. I think J1c will treat man as equals until he can master it and H maintains an attitude of submission making life easier for man, maybe that's where his success lies. Still and J is the second lineage in Europe which indicates that there are mens to those who should like or simply when they realize it is already too late.

    According to FamilyFinder I have 4% for North Africa.

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    As I said, there are too many agenda biased amateurs who either don't know what they're doing with some of these tools, or they deliberately mis-use them.

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    Don't these North African admixed samples carrying R1b ylines indicate that the admixture wasn't just one sided?

    "Local" Iberians who converted to Islam, of which there seem to have been more than a few, could have taken North African women as mates.
    [IMG][/IMG]

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    It would have been a good point to remember Strabo:

    The Emporitans formerly lived on a little island off the shore, which is now called Old City , but they now live on the mainland. And their city is a double one, because, in former times, the city had for neighbours some of the Indicetans, who, although they maintained a government of their own, wished, for the sake of security, to have a common wall of circumvallation with the Greeks, with the enclosure in two parts - for it has been divided by a wall through the centre; but in the course of time the two peoples united under the same constitution, which was a mixture of both Barbarian and Greek laws - a thing which has taken place in the case of many other peoples.
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    the paper even fails to get a sample about what would be like a Greek colony, well, just as everything Reich does

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Don't these North African admixed samples carrying R1b ylines indicate that the admixture wasn't just one sided?
    Why should it be one sided if it started at least during the Roman period?

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    There would be and by the time the total expulsion would have entered the sack of the expulsions as Moorish so their Iberian, Hispano-Spanish, Spanish-European e.t. It has to be in North Africa and the areas where the expelled went.

    But if those samples are used as a mirror they could raise the Iberian North African DNA when it would be reversed.

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    All right, I've read most of the comments in this forum and I get the impression that most people commenting have solid and unbiased arguments regarding the ancient history of the Iberian Peninsula.
    This study has shed many light into previously unknown facts such has the I1 lineage (possible since it lacks confirmation) and the existence of so called north african autosomal dna in the whole of Iberia.
    My biggest problem regarding this study is the fact that people specialized in genetics don't consult with other investigators in the universities which is a shame since after all we are all trying to interpret the "results" of the study when a historian and an archaeologist could do it with much better accuracy and I am saying this because I attended one of the universities involved in this study and I know the procedures (most studies are done by people of the same field without collaboration ( this happens because most Portuguese universities have different fields of study in different university campus).
    Now, about the study, the presence of North African admixture in pre islamic iberia is present as it was expected and has expected the islamic occupation most likely increased the quantity of that admixture in the whole peninsula but reduced it when it comes to localized admixture for instance in Andalucia because of the mass expulsions of people some of which were christian converts to Islam who had already a lot of north african admixture and these local south iberians were somewhat replaced by northern migrants with less north african admixture.
    If anyone complains that there are almost no samples taken from north Portugal, Galicia and the northwest of Spain in general, that's because the soil is very acid and the bones or any Dna trace aren not found in ancient graveyards, only what's left of the pottery and sometimes precious metals and stone coffins are found.
    Finally and I know it's a lot to read, and it's someone obsessed with Iberian History here, but in the Islamic period it is quite likely that while the elites would have had some issues with inter-marriage between catholics and muslims, the same cannot be said about the common people, so it is likely that the north african admixture spread both through male and female alike, still, I still find it hard to believe that the north african admixture has already become so dispersed that it is equal between a Galician/Asturian and someone from south Spain but perhaps someone can enlighten me about that, though about the Portuguese case it still perplexes me how the Portuguese are all very close genetically since the muslims never got to occupy the northern river valleys in Portugal nor the mountainous and isolate reaches othe Minho and Tras-os-Montes regions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    Without entering the current feminist e.t.c. And referring to the ancient or relatively old times I think that H is a more submissive and complacent female in her familiar attitude to a male than other haplogroups such as J1c according to what I know so that it is a more dominant female in terms of tribal or family relationships. I think J1c will treat man as equals until he can master it and H maintains an attitude of submission making life easier for man, maybe that's where his success lies. Still and J is the second lineage in Europe which indicates that there are mens to those who should like or simply when they realize it is already too late. According to FamilyFinder I have 4% for North Africa.
    You might have something there, Carlos, and you have never met my mother or sister!

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    ^^
    The North African mixture apparently is not the same between a Galician and an Andalusian apparently is greater in a Galician. The expulsion was a long process where some groups were allowed to be in a controlled manner until the total expulsion was decided. It should have been done in a very organized and exhaustive way otherwise the results would have been other, in addition to there being oral tradition that there is not.

    Stop giving the current Andalusia an identity that it does not have. We have already endured many topics and misrepresented stories about our current identity. What else do you need to see now? there are the results.


    I'm sorry but I defend Andalusia to death, I carry it in my blood.

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    I do not know, I showed my results to my specialist doctor and she told me that 4% was very old, so I assumed that I could be Phoenician or Carthaginian and maybe it came from the north of Spain or from another place in Europe, what You want me to tell you, I do not know.
    Andalusia is not going to be responsible now for all the E of Europe, some cardan the wool and others take the fame.

    I do not know J1c2 but J1c5 yes and I assure you that they are not behind the man and when the time comes, not even to the side but above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    most of it R1b-DF27
    but in the SW of Iberia (Tartessian) we have today R1b-U152, I cannot imagine this is a late arrival, it must have been 4.5-4 ka
    and what about R1b-L21? did they arrive 4.5-4 ka or later, during the Atlantic bronze age?
    IMO, most of the R1b-U152 in Iberia came with the Romans. Actually the distribution of U152 in Iberia matches very well the pattern of Roman colonies, with a particularly high concentration in Andalusia and along the Mediterranean coast up to Catalonia.
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    R1b U152 could be Urnfield in part

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^
    The North African mixture apparently is not the same between a Galician and an Andalusian apparently is greater in a Galician. The expulsion was a long process where some groups were allowed to be in a controlled manner until the total expulsion was decided. It should have been done in a very organized and exhaustive way otherwise the results would have been other, in addition to there being oral tradition that there is not.

    Stop giving the current Andalusia an identity that it does not have. We have already endured many topics and misrepresented stories about our current identity. What else do you need to see now? there are the results.


    I'm sorry but I defend Andalusia to death, I carry it in my blood.

    Well, I was trying to say that, I must have lost myself in such a huge text, I meant that the population of Andalucia had more north african admixture before the islamic conquest and during the islamic period but that reality was completely changed by the Reconquista and its aftermath, I actually said that I was perplexed that Galicians have more north african admixture than the Andalucians because Galicia only suffered incursions and not outright occupation, and I tried to say that while it cannot be proven, at least not yet, the isolate river valleys and mountain chains where I was born, the interior Minho region might have much less than the rest of Portugal.
    About attacking Andalucia, well it is my favourite part of Spain because of its historical and cultural value and of course because of its breathtaking landscapes, the Sierra Nevada is my personal favourite. Still I respect patriotism a lot, and regionalism in this case since I am also like that, nobody mess with my home region. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    R1b U152 could be Urnfield in part

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    Yes, but Urnfield only reached Catalonia and Valencia, while U152 is strongest in Andalusia and South Portugal. U152 is NW Iberia could be Hallstatt Celtic, but considering the limited expanse which mirrors that of I1 I would rather think that the Suebi are responsible for a higher percentage of modern U152 in that region today. If there were Hallstatt U152 in Iberia, its frequency must have suffered considerably over time with all subsequent invaders.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Why should it be one sided if it started at least during the Roman period?
    I was responding to a statement made up thread which seemed to imply that the admixture was always "Muslim" men with local Iberian women.

    That's not how I interpret that graph.

    Many of these samples are from the 10th-16th century.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    I actually said that I was perplexed that Galicians have more north african admixture than the Andalucians because Galicia only suffered incursions and not outright occupation, and I tried to say that while it cannot be proven, at least not yet, the isolate river valleys and mountain chains where I was born, the interior Minho region might have much less than the rest of Portugal.
    It doesn't, I've seen plenty of northern Portuguese individuals and their north African results are just like any other. Same goes for Trás-os-Montes. And León.
    The explanation might be that it's way older than the Muslim period (as this paper proves in southern Spain) and fueled by the Romanisation, especially in coastal or urban areas - and Bracara was an important city - or that it might have something to do with Mozarabes during the Asturian and Leonese kingdoms. Or possibly Ibn Marwan and his rebellion against Cordoba, which was supported by Asturias and included both Muladis and Mozarabes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Many of these samples are from the 10th-16th century.
    And many are form the pre-Muslim period.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    All right, I've read most of the comments in this forum and I get the impression that most people commenting have solid and unbiased arguments regarding the ancient history of the Iberian Peninsula.
    This study has shed many light into previously unknown facts such has the I1 lineage (possible since it lacks confirmation) and the existence of so called north african autosomal dna in the whole of Iberia.
    My biggest problem regarding this study is the fact that people specialized in genetics don't consult with other investigators in the universities which is a shame since after all we are all trying to interpret the "results" of the study when a historian and an archaeologist could do it with much better accuracy and I am saying this because I attended one of the universities involved in this study and I know the procedures (most studies are done by people of the same field without collaboration ( this happens because most Portuguese universities have different fields of study in different university campus).
    Now, about the study, the presence of North African admixture in pre islamic iberia is present as it was expected and has expected the islamic occupation most likely increased the quantity of that admixture in the whole peninsula but reduced it when it comes to localized admixture for instance in Andalucia because of the mass expulsions of people some of which were christian converts to Islam who had already a lot of north african admixture and these local south iberians were somewhat replaced by northern migrants with less north african admixture.
    If anyone complains that there are almost no samples taken from north Portugal, Galicia and the northwest of Spain in general, that's because the soil is very acid and the bones or any Dna trace aren not found in ancient graveyards, only what's left of the pottery and sometimes precious metals and stone coffins are found.
    Finally and I know it's a lot to read, and it's someone obsessed with Iberian History here, but in the Islamic period it is quite likely that while the elites would have had some issues with inter-marriage between catholics and muslims, the same cannot be said about the common people, so it is likely that the north african admixture spread both through male and female alike, still, I still find it hard to believe that the north african admixture has already become so dispersed that it is equal between a Galician/Asturian and someone from south Spain but perhaps someone can enlighten me about that, though about the Portuguese case it still perplexes me how the Portuguese are all very close genetically since the muslims never got to occupy the northern river valleys in Portugal nor the mountainous and isolate reaches othe Minho and Tras-os-Montes regions.
    That distribution has always been a puzzle even before ancient dna testing. Over the years I tried to find a book or even long papers something like Leonard Chiarelli's Muslim Sicily which would detail where various North African groups were settled and when, but I came up dry.

    Would another possibility be related to slighty different decrees from the Portuguese and Spanish crowns about the expulsions? Could it have been slightly easier to refugee there during the expulsions?

    The Jews did, after all, shelter in the Tras os Montes regions, yes?

    Ed. for typos
    Last edited by Angela; 18-03-19 at 20:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    That distribution has always been a puzzle even before ancient dna testing. Over the years I tried to find a book or even long papers something like Leonard Chiarett's Muslim Sicily which would detail where various North African groups were settled and when, but I came up dry.

    Would another possibility be related to slightlrey different decrees from the Portuguese and Spanish crowns about the expulsions? Could it have been slightly easier to refugee there during the expulsions?

    The Jews did, after all, shelter in the Tras os Montes regions, yes?
    I haven't seen any evidence for that, but anyway Jews are not Berbers - you'd expect to see an excess of Levantine-related ancestry, not Berber. And people might be severely overestimating Jewish population in Portugal. The figures aren't consensual, but the country's most respected medievalist (José Mattoso) put the number under 1% somewhen during the inquirições manuelinas

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    there were also urnfield settlements in Aragon, Navarre and part of the Meseta

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^
    The North African mixture apparently is not the same between a Galician and an Andalusian apparently is greater in a Galician. The expulsion was a long process where some groups were allowed to be in a controlled manner until the total expulsion was decided. It should have been done in a very organized and exhaustive way otherwise the results would have been other, in addition to there being oral tradition that there is not.

    Stop giving the current Andalusia an identity that it does not have. We have already endured many topics and misrepresented stories about our current identity. What else do you need to see now? there are the results.


    I'm sorry but I defend Andalusia to death, I carry it in my blood.
    It depends whether you believe there's something wrong with North African ancestry.

    Yes, there seems to be more North African in the east of the Peninsula, and more in Galicia (9%) than in Andalucia (7-8%?). Does that merit congratulations?

    [IMG][/IMG]
    I suggest you consider your response carefully. I like you Carlos, but I won't tolerate racism from anyone.

    I don't get why this is such a big deal, and never have...I share with many Sicilians on 23andme, and percentages of North African of around 4% sometimes show up, as well as West Asian. None of them whinges about it. Even my husband, with his Calabrian ancestry gets almost 2%. Didn't bother him a bit, nor his "additional" West Asian. The only ancestry he would have preferred not to see is North Western and Northern ancestry.

    Of course, there are Italian racists in the internet universe, but they're not the kind of people I would know.

  25. #175
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    What expulsions in northwestern Iberia if Muslims never ruled there or if they did, only 10-20 years?? Associating more presence of northafrican admixture with Muslims in northwestern Iberia has no sense at all, for me. As Ruderico said, it could take sense if it's from Roman times or something related to Berbers against Arabs in 741. In Galicia northafrican admixture seems to be not homogeneous, concentrating in Pontevedra, like Tuy (an important city then) near Portugal. I am from northern Galicia and I have not "northafrican admixture" (23andme). It's a very interesting question and historian and genetics should work together to find out what kind of people brought this admixture to Iberia and why it's stronger in the west part.

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