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Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

  1. #201
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Carlos, do you sincerely believe that families, who had seen a long religious and increasingly racialized persecution of Muslims and even Moriscos (even born Christians, but merely descendants of former Muslims), and probably been exposed to the veritable demonization of Muslims in a fanatically Christian country, and doctrined about the limpieza de sangre, would still strive to maintain and pass down an oral tradition of being descendants of Berbers and Arabs who had been Muslims? Those kinds of "origin stories" in most families get lost after a few centuries (in Brazil many people have no idea when and where their family came from when they had been here for more than 200 years), let alone when there are very useful and in fact existential reasons to not stress tha, origin among so many others that would not get you in any trouble or make you feel lesser.
    I agree. I've read documents from the time about the experiences of the "New Christians" with the Inquisition. Some of these people were still being tortured and burned at the stake a hundred years after converting and intermarrying. No wonder if some of them turned against the "new religion" and reverted to that of their forefathers.

    Even going to the New World wasn't good enough. The Inquisition followed them there. Who the heck would pass on the memory of that ancestry?


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    I had not seen the Ygorcs message.


    Well, I would tell you that if the expulsion had not been total and half or a quarter of those who had been expelled would have been impossible to stop or inhibit an oral tradition in the family nucleus and if it had been a high number your neighbors would know it, It would be public but it would be secret. Nowadays we will find in the Town Halls thousands of documents that families or individuals have found about their origins. I think there is a high class family in Granada that knows that they are descended from Arabs of the time, so if the conversions had been massive the Inquisition would not have been able to hit the ear on each door of each house. As they say around here the solution is in mathematics.


    When I was a teenager I asked my grandmother if we came from the nobility and then my grandmother went to her room and brought me a small envelope where inside there was a paper with a written name that her ancestors had left her, I read the name that she had written there (I exclaimed something) my grandmother fell silent and we never talked about it again, a subject that I did not discover until many decades later and it is very, very old.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I had not seen the Ygorcs message.


    Well, I would tell you that if the expulsion had not been total and half or a quarter of those who had been expelled would have been impossible to stop or inhibit an oral tradition in the family nucleus and if it had been a high number your neighbors would know it, It would be public but it would be secret. Nowadays we will find in the Town Halls thousands of documents that families or individuals have found about their origins. I think there is a high class family in Granada that knows that they are descended from Arabs of the time, so if the conversions had been massive the Inquisition would not have been able to hit the ear on each door of each house. As they say around here the solution is in mathematics.


    When I was a teenager I asked my grandmother if we came from the nobility and then my grandmother went to her room and brought me a small envelope where inside there was a paper with a written name that her ancestors had left her, I read the name that she had written there (I exclaimed something) my grandmother fell silent and we never talked about it again, a subject that I did not discover until many decades later and it is very, very old.
    My mother's familiy comes from a quite isolated agricultural region at the French border. At a family meet I once tried to explain to my relatives that Y-DNA and surname unmistakably pointed to the line's patriarch having been a Prussian from the other end of the German-speaking areas. It wasn't a very popular idea because the older family members thought themselves deeply indigenous to the region

    Point being that unimportant families usually do not preserve their histories very well.

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    ^^

    True, but when the river sounds water carries. A million people for setting a silent example and being Spanish, that would have been impossible even with the Inquisition through lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    I had not seen the Ygorcs message.


    Well, I would tell you that if the expulsion had not been total and half or a quarter of those who had been expelled would have been impossible to stop or inhibit an oral tradition in the family nucleus and if it had been a high number your neighbors would know it, It would be public but it would be secret. Nowadays we will find in the Town Halls thousands of documents that families or individuals have found about their origins. I think there is a high class family in Granada that knows that they are descended from Arabs of the time, so if the conversions had been massive the Inquisition would not have been able to hit the ear on each door of each house. As they say around here the solution is in mathematics.


    When I was a teenager I asked my grandmother if we came from the nobility and then my grandmother went to her room and brought me a small envelope where inside there was a paper with a written name that her ancestors had left her, I read the name that she had written there (I exclaimed something) my grandmother fell silent and we never talked about it again, a subject that I did not discover until many decades later and it is very, very old.
    That kind of argument in my opinion could only make sense if the conversions happened en masse in just a very short period of time. But the Reconquista started in the 12th century and was pretty much finished in the 15th century, some generations before the expulsions and persecutions. (Re)-Christianization began centuries before the expulsion of the Muslims and Moriscos. In the final glory of Al-Andalus, around 1100 AD, it's probable that half of the Iberian population was Muslim or Jew or even slightly more, but by the late 15th century they had already been reduced to about 20%. And later those who did not get expelled were most probably those that did manage to flee and hide where people didn't know them and those that had already converted early enough for their family's former religion to be forgotten by most people. But that still doesn't mean that all people who had been Muslim or Jew were expelled. Also, part of the New Christians avoided persecution for one reason or another, at least those that assimilated best. When you say people don't have stories about their Arab or Berber ancestors, what we can know is that they probably lack one such ancestor in the last 500 years... but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of Spanish and Portuguese families do not know details any further than that (come on, anyone has THOUSANDS of ancestors 500 years ago, it's virtually impossible to take not of all of them, let alone before that). What is certain is that the North African ancestry is there in Iberia, it had increased during the Muslim rule, so it was probably diluted enough - and therefore many people who don't know their ancestry from the Caliphates in fact just missed that part of their family hstory (which in any case I'm pretty sure that many, if not most, people tried to forget as much as they could in the last centuries).

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    He's buried with typically Germanic implements. He was middle aged and buried with the woman to whom the famous Crown of Kerch belonged.

    https://www.smb.museum/en/museums-in...n-kertsch.html

    Perhaps a political marriage or something.
    ^^^
    Well, wasn't KER_1 actually that woman? I can't find the info about Y-DNA haplogroup anywhere.

    I only processed chromosomes 1-22 and X before uploading to GEDmatch, so I didn't check the Y.

    I wonder why didn't they sample DNA of that man buried with her?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    ^^^
    Well, wasn't KER_1 actually that woman? I can't find the info about Y-DNA haplogroup anywhere.

    I only processed chromosomes 1-22 and X before uploading to GEDmatch, so I didn't check the Y.

    I wonder why didn't they sample DNA of that man buried with her?
    Nah, middle aged male as per the supplement of the paper. Assigned to J2a1 by the Russians on molgen.

    They didn't sequence the woman for some reason.

    Perhaps the Goths absorbed the remnants of the Bosporans.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Nah, middle aged male as per the supplement of the paper. Assigned to J2a1 by the Russians on molgen.

    They didn't sequence the woman for some reason.

    Perhaps the Goths absorbed the remnants of the Bosporans.
    But he was the king of Crimean Goths, right? He was buried with the crown of Kerch after all.

    KER1 GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MD6611828

    Maybe he was the king who ruled over remnants of Bosporans, married to a Gothic princess?

    If he was the ruler of actual Goths then it means that Goths elected an ethnically foreign king:


    Eurogenes K13:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 East_Med 30.97
    2 West_Asian 24.07
    3 North_Atlantic 18.23
    4 West_Med 13.87
    5 Baltic 8.01
    6 Red_Sea 1.86
    7 Amerindian 1.75
    8 Siberian 1.14
    9 Oceanian 0.09


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Central_Greek 11.11
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 11.33
    3 South_Italian 12.02
    4 East_Sicilian 12.3
    5 Turkish 13.54
    6 Ashkenazi 14.07
    7 West_Sicilian 14.86
    8 Sephardic_Jewish 15.19
    9 Greek_Thessaly 15.24
    10 Italian_Jewish 16.52
    11 Cyprian 17.16
    12 Algerian_Jewish 17.83
    13 Lebanese_Muslim 17.85
    14 Azeri 17.95
    15 Tunisian_Jewish 18.38
    16 Tuscan 18.87
    17 Libyan_Jewish 19.34
    18 Syrian 19.93
    19 Assyrian 20.07
    20 Armenian 20.43


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 64.6% Italian_Jewish + 35.4% Tabassaran @ 5.15
    2 68.2% Assyrian + 31.8% Southeast_English @ 5.38
    3 63.9% Italian_Jewish + 36.1% Lezgin @ 5.45
    4 64.1% Assyrian + 35.9% West_German @ 5.48
    5 65.2% Assyrian + 34.8% South_Dutch @ 5.61
    6 69% Assyrian + 31% Southwest_English @ 5.65
    7 68.5% Italian_Abruzzo + 31.5% Kurdish @ 5.66
    8 69.2% Assyrian + 30.8% Orcadian @ 5.71
    9 63.3% Assyrian + 36.7% French @ 5.72
    10 72.4% South_Italian + 27.6% Lezgin @ 5.82
    11 69.7% Assyrian + 30.3% West_Scottish @ 5.84
    12 63.7% Italian_Abruzzo + 36.3% Azeri @ 5.91
    13 69.5% Assyrian + 30.5% Irish @ 5.93
    14 73.2% South_Italian + 26.8% Tabassaran @ 5.98
    15 63.9% Italian_Jewish + 36.1% Chechen @ 5.98
    16 69.1% Assyrian + 30.9% North_Dutch @ 6.06
    17 67.2% Sephardic_Jewish + 32.8% Tabassaran @ 6.1
    18 67.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.8% Armenian @ 6.12
    19 69% Assyrian + 31% Danish @ 6.18
    20 76.2% Italian_Abruzzo + 23.8% Abhkasian @ 6.21


    Eurogenes K15:


    Admix Results (sorted):


    # Population Percent
    1 West_Asian 27.53
    2 East_Med 25.61
    3 Atlantic 14.99
    4 North_Sea 11.57
    5 West_Med 8.46
    6 Eastern_Euro 3.46
    7 Baltic 3.15
    8 Red_Sea 3.02
    9 Amerindian 1.48
    10 Siberian 0.72


    Single Population Sharing:


    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Turkish 11.83
    2 Italian_Abruzzo 13.36
    3 Central_Greek 13.84
    4 East_Sicilian 14.97
    5 South_Italian 15.08
    6 Azeri 15.17
    7 Ashkenazi 15.61
    8 Greek 17.31
    9 West_Sicilian 17.43
    10 Armenian 17.69
    11 Sephardic_Jewish 17.9
    12 Greek_Thessaly 17.96
    13 Kurdish 18.22
    14 Georgian_Jewish 18.41
    15 Italian_Jewish 18.59
    16 Lebanese_Muslim 19.04
    17 Assyrian 19.16
    18 Kumyk 19.29
    19 Tuscan 19.6
    20 Cyprian 19.63


    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 69.7% Armenian + 30.3% Irish @ 5.09
    2 69% Armenian + 31% Southeast_English @ 5.1
    3 70% Armenian + 30% West_Scottish @ 5.24
    4 66.2% Armenian + 33.8% South_Dutch @ 5.31
    5 69% Armenian + 31% Southwest_English @ 5.36
    6 68.2% Georgian_Jewish + 31.8% Southeast_English @ 5.51
    7 68.1% Georgian_Jewish + 31.9% Southwest_English @ 5.6
    8 67.6% Italian_Abruzzo + 32.4% Georgian @ 5.61
    9 68.9% Georgian_Jewish + 31.1% Irish @ 5.61
    10 68.1% Armenian + 31.9% North_German @ 5.61
    11 65% Armenian + 35% French @ 5.7
    12 69.3% Georgian_Jewish + 30.7% West_Scottish @ 5.74
    13 70.4% Armenian + 29.6% Orcadian @ 5.76
    14 70.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 29.2% Abhkasian @ 5.76
    15 69.6% Armenian + 30.4% Danish @ 5.82
    16 65.4% Georgian_Jewish + 34.6% South_Dutch @ 5.83
    17 69.6% Georgian_Jewish + 30.4% Orcadian @ 5.93
    18 69.9% Armenian + 30.1% North_Dutch @ 5.97
    19 64.1% Georgian_Jewish + 35.9% French @ 6.11
    20 65% Armenian + 35% Spanish_Cataluna @ 6.2

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    But he was their king, right? He was buried with the crown of Kerch.

    KER1 GEDmatch Genesis kit number - MD6611828
    No, the crown belonged to the woman he was buried with. I'd be reluctant to speculate about the political situation there, but I think he was pretty important. Perhaps more like one of several important guys rather than an outright king - it's difficult to tell.

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    Ygorcs, Reconquista started in 12th century? Where do you read that? 10 years after Muslim rule Reconquista has been started, in 722, and in 740 almost a quarter of Iberia was not under Muslim rule... Muslims are not an explanation to the presence of Berber admixture in the northwestern part of Iberia. Bishops of Lugo, Iria Flavia and Bretoña in Galicia were never interrupted like others in Braga, Astorga, Dumio... and there are Berber admixture in northern part of Galicia and Asturias, so the explanation has to be another one.

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    comm'on Carlos, I remember that once you posted your Y DNA result and it was a kind of E spread mainly in Somalia. And in your autosomal results you have not found any trace of Moorish DNA when Andalusians have a 8%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Some observations I made as I read the results of the paper:


    3) The second pulse of Central European BB-like ancestry during the Early Iron Age would perfectly explain the arrival of Celtic languages to Iberia, but I wonder where Lusitanian fits.Lusitanian is scarcely attested, but it looks fairly closely related to Celtic and also to Italic, therefore suggesting a reasonably recent common origin with the Roman Era Celtic and Italic languages, not necessarily somethingas old as the first Bell Beaker incursions there around 2500 B.C., in which case we’d expect it to be much more distinctive (unless Italic or Celtic - or both - came from a source in very close contact with Iberian BB,which is IMHO unlikely). Maybe Lusitanian was not “archaic” at all after all and instead was just an Italic branch of the Iron Age expansion of Urnfield-derived people, whereas the others were from a Celtic branch.For the Indo-European speakers of Iberia, the language shift must’ve been relatively uncomplicated: if the extra Central European influx and language change happened around 800-600 B.C., then the IE Iberians’ nativelanguages were to Celtic or Lusitanian a bit like Portuguese is to French.
    what about the British Isles and Ireland in particular?
    R1b-L21 has been identified to arrive 4.5 ka in the British Isles
    today R1b-L21 is still present in the British Isles, and in Ireland it even is still abt 75 % of the population
    I don't think there was a second pulse of Central European BB-like ancestry during the Early Iron Age there that could make them switch language

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    The only possibility is that R1b-L21, S28, DF-27 and broadly P312 were all in a same population or proximity and expanded in different direction. The reason is that L21 and DF-27 seems to follow the same trail of BB expansion respectively in British Islands and Iberia, but they are not close in the phylogenetic tree, instead DF-27 is close to S28 wich were likely central europe BB's who expanded in Switzerland ( there is a likely BB Switzerland paper that gonna came up this year, we gonna see if it confirm this ) and Italy. What about S21? and what about the origin of the expansion?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur View Post
    we still don't know what the Roman Y-DNA was, was a majority R1b-U152
    the distribution of R1b-U152 matches pretty well with the Gaulish expansions, even upto Galatia
    the Gaulish were probably Halstatt people
    and some eastern Halstatt people would have been one of the founding faters of the Illyrians
    that would account for R1b-U152 along the Dalmatian coastline
    I would say the majority of the Hallstatt people were R1b-U152, and that would explain all of the distibution of R1b-U152, except for SW Iberia and Corsica
    do we know what subclades of R1b-U152 are present in SW Iberia?
    It's not just that. Even the autosomal Italian ancestry matches the areas with high U152 in Iberia.




    In Galicia and North Portugal, there is an elevated level of both Italian and French-German (either Hallstatt or Suebi or both) to explain the higher levels of U152. However even North Italian carry that "Hallstatt-like" French-German admixture. Since Hallstatt Celts or the Suebi didn't settle anywhere near the Mediterranean coast of Spain nor the Baleares, but both were settled by the Romans, the most likely explanation for the presence of the French-German and Italian admixtures and Y-DNA R1b-U152 in Iberia is Roman colonisation. Furthermore the Romans remained for some 7 centuries in Iberia, with a constant flow of people from Italy to Iberia, including the resettlement of retired legionaries in cities like Merida (Augusta Emerita). The Hallstatt Celts and Suebi were one time migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It's not just that. Even the autosomal Italian ancestry matches the areas with high U152 in Iberia.




    In Galicia and North Portugal, there is an elevated level of both Italian and French-German (either Hallstatt or Suebi or both) to explain the higher levels of U152. However even North Italian carry that "Hallstatt-like" French-German admixture. Since Hallstatt Celts or the Suebi didn't settle anywhere near the Mediterranean coast of Spain nor the Baleares, but both were settled by the Romans, the most likely explanation for the presence of the French-German and Italian admixtures and Y-DNA R1b-U152 in Iberia is Roman colonisation. Furthermore the Romans remained for some 7 centuries in Iberia, with a constant flow of people from Italy to Iberia, including the resettlement of retired legionaries in cities like Merida (Augusta Emerita). The Hallstatt Celts and Suebi were one time migrations.

    so, maybe the Roman colonisers were not Romans, but Gauls from the Po Valley (who had entered there 400 BC)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    It doesn't, I've seen plenty of northern Portuguese individuals and their north African results are just like any other. Same goes for Trás-os-Montes. And León.
    The explanation might be that it's way older than the Muslim period (as this paper proves in southern Spain) and fueled by the Romanisation, especially in coastal or urban areas - and Bracara was an important city - or that it might have something to do with Mozarabes during the Asturian and Leonese kingdoms. Or possibly Ibn Marwan and his rebellion against Cordoba, which was supported by Asturias and included both Muladis and Mozarabes.
    Sorry for replying again to the same post but, and I am not doubting you, where did you see such samples from northern Portuguese, I am now curious to see those results if they can be seen. Could you post a link to where they are if possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That kind of argument in my opinion could only make sense if the conversions happened en masse in just a very short period of time. But the Reconquista started in the 12th century and was pretty much finished in the 15th century, some generations before the expulsions and persecutions. (Re)-Christianization began centuries before the expulsion of the Muslims and Moriscos. In the final glory of Al-Andalus, around 1100 AD, it's probable that half of the Iberian population was Muslim or Jew or even slightly more, but by the late 15th century they had already been reduced to about 20%. And later those who did not get expelled were most probably those that did manage to flee and hide where people didn't know them and those that had already converted early enough for their family's former religion to be forgotten by most people. But that still doesn't mean that all people who had been Muslim or Jew were expelled. Also, part of the New Christians avoided persecution for one reason or another, at least those that assimilated best. When you say people don't have stories about their Arab or Berber ancestors, what we can know is that they probably lack one such ancestor in the last 500 years... but I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of Spanish and Portuguese families do not know details any further than that (come on, anyone has THOUSANDS of ancestors 500 years ago, it's virtually impossible to take not of all of them, let alone before that). What is certain is that the North African ancestry is there in Iberia, it had increased during the Muslim rule, so it was probably diluted enough - and therefore many people who don't know their ancestry from the Caliphates in fact just missed that part of their family hstory (which in any case I'm pretty sure that many, if not most, people tried to forget as much as they could in the last centuries).
    The expelled descendants that today are in North Africa have a memory and those who had stayed in the peninsula would have lost it? He knows that there are people who still keep the key to his house and that there are laws that even give them Spanish nationality. If they had stayed a large amount they would not have been lonely wolves where in a few years their ancestry could be lost, we talked about families more than anything and then there would be memories, oral tradition something like it happens in the descendants of the current expelled, and there is not . You grow and if you ask for some building they tell you: that was of the Moors or that the Moors did, in the past and referring to other people, it is the only thing there is, nothing more. Therefore I keep my hypothesis refuted by the data that you already know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by suebiking View Post
    Sorry for replying again to the same post but, and I am not doubting you, where did you see such samples from northern Portuguese, I am now curious to see those results if they can be seen. Could you post a link to where they are if possible.
    Not off the top of my head, but over the years on forums and various commercial tests comments, with multiple kits ran through Gedmatch calculators, it's painfully obvious there are no relevant statistical deviations when it comes to this type of ancestry. There is virtually no chance you won't score normal African-related ancestry if you are a native Portuguese, regardless if you are from Braga, Chaves, Viseu or Faro, it's just the way it is. Also, the paper "Patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula" showed the same thing when it comes to Portuguese (and Galicians). Angela already posted a few maps from that study, as you can see not even Galicians from the interior are that different, you'd need to be from an extremelly isolated, drifted and endogamous place to have different results.

    But if you are in doubt you can always take a genetic test and run your rawdata through Gedmatch of Global 25 and see for yourself :)

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    [QUOTE = berun; 570363] comunión a Carlos, recuerdo que una vez que publicaste el resultado de tu ADN Y, fue una especie de E difundida principalmente en Somalia. ¿Y en tus resultados autosómicos no has encontrado ningún rastro de ADN morisco cuando los andaluces tienen un 8%? [/ QUOTE]

    You already know if I publish my results continuously. The subject that is most discussed is usually that of the Muslim period. I took a 4% but I have seen that other Europeans here have also taken a 4% and how can I know if it is from the Muslim era if everyone tells me that it is earlier. I do not have any problem if I almost focus more on the minor values, in Nmontes Somalia appears, I love it. In another calculator appeared altaic did not reach 3% and I have been for months thinking I was Altaic. In the topic Andalusia I speak in general about the thickness of the population not only of me.

    pen0-
    [1] "distancia% = 0.4171"

    X

    French_Basque, 44.6
    Orcadian, 25.8
    Sardinian, 18.4
    Ossetian, 7.4
    Somali, 3.6
    Evens, 0.2

    I do not put everything to not bore. If I had commented on my results, it could have helped me shed some light.

    Here are my results in many e.t.c calculators.
    https://dnaresultsandalusianspain.bl...5-nmontes.html


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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    pen0-
    [1] "distancia% = 0.4171"

    X

    French_Basque, 44.6
    Orcadian, 25.8
    Sardinian, 18.4
    Ossetian, 7.4
    Somali, 3.6
    Evens, 0.2

    I do not put everything to not bore. If I had commented on my results, it could have helped me shed some light.

    Here are my results in many e.t.c calculators.
    https://dnaresultsandalusianspain.bl...5-nmontes.html

    Always keep the penalty on, otherwise nmonte will give you too much overfitted models that make no sense. I still prefer K13 over all others, although K15 is good too I guess.
    Still, neither beat G25

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    `^^^
    Yes, of course, there must still be a lot to discover. Every week I feel from a different place with so much calculator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    `^^^
    Yes, of course, there must still be a lot to discover. Every week I feel from a different place with so much calculator.
    I personally don't bother with small potatoes, I find it irrelevant if a model gives me 1% this or 2% that because it's just a mathematical model. For example no model currently assigns me to Portugal, but that's where all my family's from. If you know your family background, that's what matters. For me anyways.

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    The steppe cult is so deeply inserted in some brains, that now that people se how Iberian and Basque speakers are direct descendents of R1b beakers that they are thinking that there was a parallel non-IE wave, well, ok, now it's a good hour for trollling... so lets ask, ok guys, the Iberian / Basque combo came also, as everything worth in the world, from the Pontic steppe, but hey, maybe the IE Celtic-Latin combo IE beaker can be tracked down, so, my trollling question is, it's possible to assign to each combo a given admixture? per example, if the Iberian / Basque combo was more CHG / Iran Neo than EHG, and the Celtic / Latin was more EHG. Let's see how many heads pop up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davidtab View Post
    Ygorcs, Reconquista started in 12th century? Where do you read that? 10 years after Muslim rule Reconquista has been started, in 722, and in 740 almost a quarter of Iberia was not under Muslim rule... Muslims are not an explanation to the presence of Berber admixture in the northwestern part of Iberia. Bishops of Lugo, Iria Flavia and Bretoña in Galicia were never interrupted like others in Braga, Astorga, Dumio... and there are Berber admixture in northern part of Galicia and Asturias, so the explanation has to be another one.
    Of course I referred to the Reconquista of the parts of Iberia that were indeed under long Muslim rule, not those that were simply invaded and soon freed. After the initial decades of invasion, there was eventually a certain stability, but that started to crumble rapidly around 1100, and by 1300 most of Iberia was not under Andalusi Muslim rule. The 12th century was just an approximate dating, as in that century it had become clear that the Reconquista was decisively going to win.



    As for the Berber admixture in the northwestern part of Iberia, that is really the hardest part to explain, and of course I do not think all of the North African admixture came with Al-Andalus (Roman Africa was certainly full of Romanized and not-so-Romanized Berbers, and they lived under the same empire with Iberians for centuries), but I also think it must be rather complicated to explain exactly what demographic movements happened after the Late Antiquity because of all the intensive migrations into and within Iberia.

    Isn't it possible that, given that the western part of Iberia was the first to be fully and solidly "reconquered" (Portugal had basically defined once and for all its present borders by the early 14th century), some of the Berber-admixed people there were the first to fully assimilate and Christianize successfully avoiding eventual persecution because they blended with the native population soon enough, at a time (the High Middle Ages) when the hostility toward former Muslims and Jews was a lot lower than in the Early Modern Era?

    That would help explain the higher than average Berber admixture in Galicia/Northern Portugal: many Berber-admixed people there would've become part of the local populace, with no clear ethnic distinction, since long before the persecutions and expulsions, whereas the society in modern Spain might've been more fractured and ethnically divided. Thus the cleaveages (genetic ones, too) between people could've made it easier to "get rid" of the Berber and Arab admixture than in the western part of Iberia, and subsequent movements (which in Iberia were clearly in a north-south direction or vice-versa) accounted for the rest of the story.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Of course I referred to the Reconquista of the parts of Iberia that were indeed under long Muslim rule, not those that were simply invaded and soon freed. After the initial decades of invasion, there was eventually a certain stability, but that started to crumble rapidly around 1100 B.C., and by 1300 most of Iberia was not under Andalusi Muslim rule.



    As for the Berber admixture in the northwestern part of Iberia, that is really the hardest part to explain, and of course I do not think all of the North African admixture came with Al-Andalus (Roman Africa was certainly full of Romanized and not-so-Romanized Berbers, and they lived under the same empire with Iberians for centuries), but I also think it must be rather complicated to explain exactly what demographic movements happened after the Late Antiquity because of all the intensive migrations into and within Iberia.

    Isn't it possible that, given that the western part of Iberia was the first to be fully and solidly "reconquered" (Portugal had basically defined once and for all its present borders by the early 14th century), some of the Berber-admixed people there were the first to fully assimilate and Christianize successfully avoiding eventual persecution because they blended with the native population soon enough, at a time (the High Middle Ages) when the hostility toward former Muslims and Jews was a lot lower than in the Early Modern Era?

    That would help explain the higher than average Berber admixture in Galicia/Northern Portugal: many Berber-admixed people there would've become part of the local populace, with no clear ethnic distinction, since long before the persecutions and expulsions, whereas the society in modern Spain might've been more fractured and ethnically divided. Thus the cleaveages (genetic ones, too) between people could've made it easier to "get rid" of the Berber and Arab admixture than in the western part of Iberia, and subsequent movements (which in Iberia were clearly in a north-south direction or vice-versa) accounted for the rest of the story.
    I knew what you meant.

    This all seems eminently reasonable to me, and correlates well with the assertion by the authors that as far as North African admixture from the Islamic period is concerned what survives is from the earlier centuries. They probably took a look at IBD analysis, although it's not in the paper.

    A really well done IBD analysis, by someone like Graham Coop, would be very interesting. All the other people I've seen doing them date it all to the most recent admixture event because the programs they use aren't all that reliable, imo.

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