Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

All right, I've read most of the comments in this forum and I get the impression that most people commenting have solid and unbiased arguments regarding the ancient history of the Iberian Peninsula.
This study has shed many light into previously unknown facts such has the I1 lineage (possible since it lacks confirmation) and the existence of so called north african autosomal dna in the whole of Iberia.
My biggest problem regarding this study is the fact that people specialized in genetics don't consult with other investigators in the universities which is a shame since after all we are all trying to interpret the "results" of the study when a historian and an archaeologist could do it with much better accuracy and I am saying this because I attended one of the universities involved in this study and I know the procedures (most studies are done by people of the same field without collaboration ( this happens because most Portuguese universities have different fields of study in different university campus).
Now, about the study, the presence of North African admixture in pre islamic iberia is present as it was expected and has expected the islamic occupation most likely increased the quantity of that admixture in the whole peninsula but reduced it when it comes to localized admixture for instance in Andalucia because of the mass expulsions of people some of which were christian converts to Islam who had already a lot of north african admixture and these local south iberians were somewhat replaced by northern migrants with less north african admixture.
If anyone complains that there are almost no samples taken from north Portugal, Galicia and the northwest of Spain in general, that's because the soil is very acid and the bones or any Dna trace aren not found in ancient graveyards, only what's left of the pottery and sometimes precious metals and stone coffins are found.
Finally and I know it's a lot to read, and it's someone obsessed with Iberian History here, but in the Islamic period it is quite likely that while the elites would have had some issues with inter-marriage between catholics and muslims, the same cannot be said about the common people, so it is likely that the north african admixture spread both through male and female alike, still, I still find it hard to believe that the north african admixture has already become so dispersed that it is equal between a Galician/Asturian and someone from south Spain but perhaps someone can enlighten me about that, though about the Portuguese case it still perplexes me how the Portuguese are all very close genetically since the muslims never got to occupy the northern river valleys in Portugal nor the mountainous and isolate reaches othe Minho and Tras-os-Montes regions.
 
Without entering the current feminist e.t.c. And referring to the ancient or relatively old times I think that H is a more submissive and complacent female in her familiar attitude to a male than other haplogroups such as J1c according to what I know so that it is a more dominant female in terms of tribal or family relationships. I think J1c will treat man as equals until he can master it and H maintains an attitude of submission making life easier for man, maybe that's where his success lies. Still and J is the second lineage in Europe which indicates that there are mens to those who should like or simply when they realize it is already too late. According to FamilyFinder I have 4% for North Africa.
You might have something there, Carlos, and you have never met my mother or sister!
 
^^
The North African mixture apparently is not the same between a Galician and an Andalusian apparently is greater in a Galician. The expulsion was a long process where some groups were allowed to be in a controlled manner until the total expulsion was decided. It should have been done in a very organized and exhaustive way otherwise the results would have been other, in addition to there being oral tradition that there is not.

Stop giving the current Andalusia an identity that it does not have. We have already endured many topics and misrepresented stories about our current identity. What else do you need to see now? there are the results.


I'm sorry but I defend Andalusia to death, I carry it in my blood.
 
I do not know, I showed my results to my specialist doctor and she told me that 4% was very old, so I assumed that I could be Phoenician or Carthaginian and maybe it came from the north of Spain or from another place in Europe, what You want me to tell you, I do not know.
Andalusia is not going to be responsible now for all the E of Europe, some cardan the wool and others take the fame.

I do not know J1c2 but J1c5 yes and I assure you that they are not behind the man and when the time comes, not even to the side but above.
 
most of it R1b-DF27
but in the SW of Iberia (Tartessian) we have today R1b-U152, I cannot imagine this is a late arrival, it must have been 4.5-4 ka
and what about R1b-L21? did they arrive 4.5-4 ka or later, during the Atlantic bronze age?

IMO, most of the R1b-U152 in Iberia came with the Romans. Actually the distribution of U152 in Iberia matches very well the pattern of Roman colonies, with a particularly high concentration in Andalusia and along the Mediterranean coast up to Catalonia.
 
R1b U152 could be Urnfield in part

Utilizzando Tapatalk
 
^^
The North African mixture apparently is not the same between a Galician and an Andalusian apparently is greater in a Galician. The expulsion was a long process where some groups were allowed to be in a controlled manner until the total expulsion was decided. It should have been done in a very organized and exhaustive way otherwise the results would have been other, in addition to there being oral tradition that there is not.

Stop giving the current Andalusia an identity that it does not have. We have already endured many topics and misrepresented stories about our current identity. What else do you need to see now? there are the results.


I'm sorry but I defend Andalusia to death, I carry it in my blood.


Well, I was trying to say that, I must have lost myself in such a huge text, I meant that the population of Andalucia had more north african admixture before the islamic conquest and during the islamic period but that reality was completely changed by the Reconquista and its aftermath, I actually said that I was perplexed that Galicians have more north african admixture than the Andalucians because Galicia only suffered incursions and not outright occupation, and I tried to say that while it cannot be proven, at least not yet, the isolate river valleys and mountain chains where I was born, the interior Minho region might have much less than the rest of Portugal.
About attacking Andalucia, well it is my favourite part of Spain because of its historical and cultural value and of course because of its breathtaking landscapes, the Sierra Nevada is my personal favourite. Still I respect patriotism a lot, and regionalism in this case since I am also like that, nobody mess with my home region. :)
 
R1b U152 could be Urnfield in part

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Yes, but Urnfield only reached Catalonia and Valencia, while U152 is strongest in Andalusia and South Portugal. U152 is NW Iberia could be Hallstatt Celtic, but considering the limited expanse which mirrors that of I1 I would rather think that the Suebi are responsible for a higher percentage of modern U152 in that region today. If there were Hallstatt U152 in Iberia, its frequency must have suffered considerably over time with all subsequent invaders.

Haplogroup-R1b-S28.gif
 
Why should it be one sided if it started at least during the Roman period?

I was responding to a statement made up thread which seemed to imply that the admixture was always "Muslim" men with local Iberian women.

That's not how I interpret that graph.

Many of these samples are from the 10th-16th century.
 
I actually said that I was perplexed that Galicians have more north african admixture than the Andalucians because Galicia only suffered incursions and not outright occupation, and I tried to say that while it cannot be proven, at least not yet, the isolate river valleys and mountain chains where I was born, the interior Minho region might have much less than the rest of Portugal.

It doesn't, I've seen plenty of northern Portuguese individuals and their north African results are just like any other. Same goes for Trás-os-Montes. And León.
The explanation might be that it's way older than the Muslim period (as this paper proves in southern Spain) and fueled by the Romanisation, especially in coastal or urban areas - and Bracara was an important city - or that it might have something to do with Mozarabes during the Asturian and Leonese kingdoms. Or possibly Ibn Marwan and his rebellion against Cordoba, which was supported by Asturias and included both Muladis and Mozarabes.



Many of these samples are from the 10th-16th century.
And many are form the pre-Muslim period.
 
All right, I've read most of the comments in this forum and I get the impression that most people commenting have solid and unbiased arguments regarding the ancient history of the Iberian Peninsula.
This study has shed many light into previously unknown facts such has the I1 lineage (possible since it lacks confirmation) and the existence of so called north african autosomal dna in the whole of Iberia.
My biggest problem regarding this study is the fact that people specialized in genetics don't consult with other investigators in the universities which is a shame since after all we are all trying to interpret the "results" of the study when a historian and an archaeologist could do it with much better accuracy and I am saying this because I attended one of the universities involved in this study and I know the procedures (most studies are done by people of the same field without collaboration ( this happens because most Portuguese universities have different fields of study in different university campus).
Now, about the study, the presence of North African admixture in pre islamic iberia is present as it was expected and has expected the islamic occupation most likely increased the quantity of that admixture in the whole peninsula but reduced it when it comes to localized admixture for instance in Andalucia because of the mass expulsions of people some of which were christian converts to Islam who had already a lot of north african admixture and these local south iberians were somewhat replaced by northern migrants with less north african admixture.
If anyone complains that there are almost no samples taken from north Portugal, Galicia and the northwest of Spain in general, that's because the soil is very acid and the bones or any Dna trace aren not found in ancient graveyards, only what's left of the pottery and sometimes precious metals and stone coffins are found.
Finally and I know it's a lot to read, and it's someone obsessed with Iberian History here, but in the Islamic period it is quite likely that while the elites would have had some issues with inter-marriage between catholics and muslims, the same cannot be said about the common people, so it is likely that the north african admixture spread both through male and female alike, still, I still find it hard to believe that the north african admixture has already become so dispersed that it is equal between a Galician/Asturian and someone from south Spain but perhaps someone can enlighten me about that, though about the Portuguese case it still perplexes me how the Portuguese are all very close genetically since the muslims never got to occupy the northern river valleys in Portugal nor the mountainous and isolate reaches othe Minho and Tras-os-Montes regions.

That distribution has always been a puzzle even before ancient dna testing. Over the years I tried to find a book or even long papers something like Leonard Chiarelli's Muslim Sicily which would detail where various North African groups were settled and when, but I came up dry.

Would another possibility be related to slighty different decrees from the Portuguese and Spanish crowns about the expulsions? Could it have been slightly easier to refugee there during the expulsions?

The Jews did, after all, shelter in the Tras os Montes regions, yes?

Ed. for typos
 
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That distribution has always been a puzzle even before ancient dna testing. Over the years I tried to find a book or even long papers something like Leonard Chiarett's Muslim Sicily which would detail where various North African groups were settled and when, but I came up dry.

Would another possibility be related to slightlrey different decrees from the Portuguese and Spanish crowns about the expulsions? Could it have been slightly easier to refugee there during the expulsions?

The Jews did, after all, shelter in the Tras os Montes regions, yes?
I haven't seen any evidence for that, but anyway Jews are not Berbers - you'd expect to see an excess of Levantine-related ancestry, not Berber. And people might be severely overestimating Jewish population in Portugal. The figures aren't consensual, but the country's most respected medievalist (José Mattoso) put the number under 1% somewhen during the inquirições manuelinas
 
there were also urnfield settlements in Aragon, Navarre and part of the Meseta

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^^
The North African mixture apparently is not the same between a Galician and an Andalusian apparently is greater in a Galician. The expulsion was a long process where some groups were allowed to be in a controlled manner until the total expulsion was decided. It should have been done in a very organized and exhaustive way otherwise the results would have been other, in addition to there being oral tradition that there is not.

Stop giving the current Andalusia an identity that it does not have. We have already endured many topics and misrepresented stories about our current identity. What else do you need to see now? there are the results.


I'm sorry but I defend Andalusia to death, I carry it in my blood.

It depends whether you believe there's something wrong with North African ancestry.

Yes, there seems to be more North African in the east of the Peninsula, and more in Galicia (9%) than in Andalucia (7-8%?). Does that merit congratulations?

BmlKz9g.png
[/IMG]
I suggest you consider your response carefully. I like you Carlos, but I won't tolerate racism from anyone.

I don't get why this is such a big deal, and never have...I share with many Sicilians on 23andme, and percentages of North African of around 4% sometimes show up, as well as West Asian. None of them whinges about it. Even my husband, with his Calabrian ancestry gets almost 2%. Didn't bother him a bit, nor his "additional" West Asian. The only ancestry he would have preferred not to see is North Western and Northern ancestry.

Of course, there are Italian racists in the internet universe, but they're not the kind of people I would know.
 
What expulsions in northwestern Iberia if Muslims never ruled there or if they did, only 10-20 years?? Associating more presence of northafrican admixture with Muslims in northwestern Iberia has no sense at all, for me. As Ruderico said, it could take sense if it's from Roman times or something related to Berbers against Arabs in 741. In Galicia northafrican admixture seems to be not homogeneous, concentrating in Pontevedra, like Tuy (an important city then) near Portugal. I am from northern Galicia and I have not "northafrican admixture" (23andme). It's a very interesting question and historian and genetics should work together to find out what kind of people brought this admixture to Iberia and why it's stronger in the west part.
 
I haven't seen any evidence for that, but anyway Jews are not Berbers - you'd expect to see an excess of Levantine-related ancestry, not Berber. And people might be severely overestimating Jewish population in Portugal. The figures aren't consensual, but the country's most respected medievalist (José Mattoso) put the number under 1% somewhen during the inquirições manuelinas

I never said Jews are autosomally like Berbers. What I said, or perhaps better, implied, is that Morriscos with more North African ancestry might have sought refuge there from the Holy Office and the expulsion decrees.

I don't know if that actually happened. It was proferred as an option for exploration.

Ruderico: And many are form the pre-Muslim period.

So you keep saying, but I think that might be overstating. What is your data for that?

Here is their graph of the samples with North African ancestry:

d03LGWH.png
[/IMG]


There are three from the 3rd to 4th century, twelve from the 5th through 8th centuries (which would include the invasion period) and twenty-three from the last period. Even if "most" of the samples from the 5th through 8th century are pre-invasion, the majority of this component came in with the Moors from the information in these samples.

With more samples things may change, of course. If they're right and some North African "E" came with the Punic settlements, why doesn't it show up in the samples from that period? Maybe they didn't hit the right settlements?

As for the proportions of North African that they propose for modern samples, I don't recall exactly and would have to check, but I think they use the Human Origins array, and also the 1000 Genomes data for Iberia. The latter is certainly what they used for the phenotype snps in the graph above. Individual results may of course differ, not to mention that commercial testing companies aren't using the same method.

In that regard I find it interesting that the Reich Lab didn't use ADMIXTURE anywhere in the analysis.
 
And as Angela said, there is nothing wrong with Berber admixture... all of us are admixed people, so who could prefer Suevian or Berber admixture?? hahaha what a foolish question... Berber better than Suevian? Suevian better than Berber?? rubbish... it's only curiosity about history and facts.
 
I was responding to a statement made up thread which seemed to imply that the admixture was always "Muslim" men with local Iberian women.

That's not how I interpret that graph.

Many of these samples are from the 10th-16th century.

correct both, Christian wives, and Muslim males, even being R1b

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muladi
 
As I said, there are too many agenda biased amateurs who either don't know what they're doing with some of these tools, or they deliberately mis-use them.

mMq0Jfm.png

You know, looking at this again, is it possible the Greek in that settlement was a Magna Graecia Greek, and Mycenaean like?
 
What expulsions in northwestern Iberia if Muslims never ruled there or if they did, only 10-20 years?? Associating more presence of northafrican admixture with Muslims in northwestern Iberia has no sense at all, for me. As Ruderico said, it could take sense if it's from Roman times or something related to Berbers against Arabs in 741. In Galicia northafrican admixture seems to be not homogeneous, concentrating in Pontevedra, like Tuy (an important city then) near Portugal. I am from northern Galicia and I have not "northafrican admixture" (23andme). It's a very interesting question and historian and genetics should work together to find out what kind of people brought this admixture to Iberia and why it's stronger in the west part.

23andMe by itself doesn't mean much though, I didn't score any either, but when you run the rawdata though a PCA with nMonte - or even the old Gedmatch calculators - it's obvious it is present. We all have it, even Asturians.

I wouldn't say it's from the Berber revolt in itself, by that time the muslim garrisons were empied because they really wanted a more useful piece of land. The local cities had been at least partially emptied, the economy had collapsed, you didn't have a monetary economy up there, so it's usefulness for them was limited, and it doesn't seem they went back after the war finished..so the explanation must be another. However Mozarabs were quite important for Asturias/Leon, and since these would be people from further south, my guess is that they carried excess north African ancestry than the northern folks, as this study already shows LateRoman+Pre-Moorish South Iberians had very high amounts of this source of ancestry. However, even this might not be that relevant because we have no idea if their social/architectural impact was correlated with an impact on the local genepool in the early middle ages.

Be it as it may, the other Iberian study made it painfully obvious the similarities in Iberia follow a longitudinal cline, so whatever differences there might have been between ancient NW and SW Iberians, today they are mostly irrelevant. This also goes in very well with the fact that Andalusians are mostly descended from northern colonists, and thus carry less north African ancestry than we do (on average).





Angela, I suggest you look at the dates on the Supp tables and info. None of those samples are Muslim, only one is maybe dated after 711, the paper itself is the evidence.
l3982 200-400CE
l3983 265-427CE
l4055 200-400CE
l3980 432-601CE
l3981 400-600CE
l3574 400-600CE
l3575 400-600CE
l3581 400-600CE
l3576 408-538CE
l3583 400-600CE
l3577 400-600CE
l3578 400-600CE
l3579 400-600CE
l3582 400-600CE
l3585 677-866CE (Roman tradition - graves had grave goods or some object of personal use such as glass bowls, belt buckles, shells, iron rings, necklace beads, glasses with horizontal striae decoration, a rectangular belt brooch with decoration of cells filled with vitreous phase of Ostrogothic influence, and a brooch and two sheets of Byzantine origin)

Most of these samples had heavy north African ancestry, way above modern Iberian levels.
Even Reich annouced the large north African impact in Iberia during the Roman period, one or two weeks ago in a lecture. You seem to be pegging it to the Moors alone for some reason. They weren't Muslim, people from southern Spain (at least) were just like that. It wasn't expected, but hey ho.
 

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