Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 297

Thread: Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    13-05-18
    Posts
    153
    Points
    4,112
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,112, Level: 18
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    8 out of 8 members found this post helpful.

    Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

    Ancient DNA research shines spotlight on Iberia
    https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_relea...-adr031119.php

    Survival of Late Pleistocene Hunter-Gatherer Ancestry in the Iberian Peninsula
    https://www.cell.com/current-biology...22(19)30145-9#

    The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years
    http://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    One alternative possibility is that local Iberian women preferred the central European newcomers in a context of "strong social stratification," said Lalueza-Fox.

    Lol basically a polite way of saying Bronze Age gold-diggers :P

  3. #3
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,374
    Points
    5,955
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,955, Level: 22
    Level completed: 81%, Points required for next Level: 95
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    To summarize basically what's new. Before Neolithic expansions coming from Anatolia, Iberia lived a Mesolithic expansion from Hunter-Gatherers related to North Africa ( Iberomaurusian? ). Living alongside individuals from the Goyet-El Miron and Villabruna Clusters.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Did they rename their graph compared to before? It clearly says "proportion of Central European Beaker ancestry", but wasn't everyone saying there was a pure Steppe woman?

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    13-05-18
    Posts
    153
    Points
    4,112
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,112, Level: 18
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States


  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,674
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,674, Level: 27
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 76
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    0 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    I will need time to read well all it, but some pitable downs: for medieval Catalonia they get samples from L'Esquerda, all right, a typical village in the pre-Pyrenees, but the other sites are just the worst to know how were locals in a given time, samples from Pla de l'Horta are few kilometers from Girona city and display Gothic characteristics as recognized in the paper, also in autosomal, samples from Sant Julià de Ramis are also near Girona in a defensive position controling the city and Via Augusta, so such kind of samples is like to take samples from Paris banlieu and try to figure out how are Frenchs, very African of course.

    For the magic wand of Reich, it must be broken as admixture graphs like in figure S6 there are not steppe CHG or EHG and alike that would settle down all such Steppe ancestry. Instead, to prove steppe in Iberia they use German beakers to make up Iberia_CA_steppe (composed by 60% locals and 40% German beakers), that's like if I get Coloureds from South Africa, compare them to French, and I say that French come from Africa, keeping more such ancestry those from the north, those living more near Netherlands.
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    13-05-18
    Posts
    153
    Points
    4,112
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,112, Level: 18
    Level completed: 66%, Points required for next Level: 138
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: United States



    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Also, I'll point out the paper has the first Iron Age Greek sample that happens to be autosomal. It clusters right where Myceneans are.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Achievements:
    5000 Experience PointsVeteran
    berun's Avatar
    Join Date
    24-11-15
    Posts
    1,084
    Points
    8,674
    Level
    27
    Points: 8,674, Level: 27
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 76
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The unique sure Indoeuropean preroman (Celtic) Y-DNA is sample I3759 from La Hoya site, well, it is I2a1a1a. LOL

  9. #9
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,991
    Points
    258,975
    Level
    100
    Points: 258,975, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    More HG pick up of ancestry after 4000 BCE in the north and center, so it makes sense it was more Canes like (NW) and therefore more like Central European KOI. The El Miron like ancestry was more in the southeast. I suppose some could have come with a slightly different Neolithic movement within Europe that came from around Hungary in addition to some from local HGs in the north?

    Should we make much of the fact that El Miron for some reason plots closer to modern Europeans?

    " Our Copper Age dataset includes a newly reported male (I4246) from Camino de las Yeseras(14) in central Iberia, radiocarbon dated to2473–2030 calibrated years BCE, who clusterswith modern and ancient North Africans in thePCA (Fig. 1C and fig. S3) and, like ~3000 BCEMoroccans (8), can be well modeled as havingancestry from both Late Pleistocene North Africans(15) and Early Neolithic Europeans (tables S9 andS10). His genome-wide ancestry and uniparentalRESEARCHOlalde et al., Science 363, 1230–1234 (2019) 15 March 2019 1 of 5on March 14, 2019 http://science.sciencemag.org/ Downloaded from markers (tables S1 and S4) are unique amongCopper Age Iberians, including individuals fromsites with many analyzed individuals such asSima del Ángel, and point to a North Africanorigin. Our genetic evidence of sporadic contactswith North Africa during the Copper Age fitswith the presence of African ivory at Iberiansites (16) and is further supported by a BronzeAge individual (I7162) from Loma del Puercoin southern Iberia who had 25% ancestry related to individuals like I4246 (Fig. 1D andtable S16). However, these early movementsfrom North Africa had a limited impact onCopper and Bronze Age Iberians, as NorthAfrican ancestry only became widespread inthe past ~2000 years."

    Well, they seem pretty certain of that.

    They show it in the graphs as well.

    [IMG][/IMG]

    Spain, except for the Basques, who are quite different, was apparently pulled south by these later migrations. Certain old posters who no longer darken our doors must be needing smelling salts. When I think of the abuse I took for merely raising the possibility...

    "From the Bronze Age (~2200–900 BCE), weincrease the available dataset (6, 7, 17) from 7 to60 individuals and show how ancestry from thePontic-Caspian steppe (Steppe ancestry) appearedthroughout Iberia in this period (Fig. 1, C and D),albeit with less impact in the south (table S13)."

    I knew it.

    "The earliest evidence is in 14 individuals dated to~2500–2000 BCE who coexisted with local peoplewithout Steppe ancestry (Fig. 2B). These groupslived in close proximity and admixed to formthe Bronze Age population after 2000 BCE with~40% ancestry from incoming groups (Fig. 2Band fig. S6). Y-chromosome turnover was evenmore pronounced (Fig. 2B), as the lineages common in Copper Age Iberia (I2, G2, and H) werealmost completely replaced by one lineage, R1bM269. These patterns point to a higher contribution of incoming males than females, alsosupported by a lower proportion of nonlocal ancestry on the X-chromosome (table S14 and fig.S7).

    Now there's some interesting information. So, they lived "relatively" peacefully for 500 years before mixing? No apparent immediate butchery of all the men. Yet, the local y lines wiped out. Wish we knew what happened.

    Also, they meant 40% Central European Beaker ancestry after the admixture, and 60% local, although other data suggest the numbers weren't that high everywhere.The present day 20% steppe related ancestry in Spain is more logical now.

    There's a second pulse of Central European ancestry, even northern ancestry, during the Iron Age, which they speculate is Urnfield related. Makes sense. That seems to have spread all the way south eventually, increasing the "foreign" ancestry from 10% to 20% in areas in the south, and 40% in some areas of the north.

    They put a toe in the linguistic waters by saying that "Unlike in Central or Northern Europe, whereSteppe ancestry likely marked the introductionof Indo-European languages (12), our resultsindicate that, in Iberia, increases in Steppe ancestry were not always accompanied by switchesto Indo-European languages." So, in areas where the new gene flow was less than 20-30% the language didn't change? The Basques are a little more than that aren't they?

    As to more "modern" admixture, I hate to be a naysayer, but if their only evidence of Bronze Age Aegean type ancestry is in the Greek colony in the northeast, and of Italian and Greek like ancestry is also in the northeast, can they really extrapolate this into a large scale impact Iberia wide? If it's true, so much for all the talk about how the Romans didn't change the genetics of the areas they conquered, whether through their own people or because of the mobility they made possible.

    "In the historical period, our transect beginswith 24 individuals from the 5th century BCEto the 6th century CE from the Greek colony ofEmpúries in the northeast (19) who fall intotwo main ancestry groups (Fig. 1, C and D, andfig. S8): one similar to Bronze Age individualsfrom the Aegean, and the other similar to IronAge Iberians such as those from the nearby nonGreek site of Ullastret, confirming historicalsources indicating that this town was inhabitedby a multiethnic population (19). The impact ofmobility from the central/eastern Mediterranean during the Classical period is also evidentin 10 individuals from the 7th to 8th century CEsite of L'Esquerda in the northeast, who showa shift from the Iron Age population in thedirection of present-day Italians and Greeks (Fig.1D) that accounts for approximately one-quarterof their ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S17). The sameshift is also observed in present-day Iberiansoutside the Basque area and is plausibly aconsequence of the Roman presence in the peninsula, which had a profound cultural impactand, according to our data, a substantial geneticimpact too."

    They also don't do much to disentangle the changes from the Iron Age on. How much of this change was because of the Greeks, how much the Phoenicians or Carthaginians? How much Roman colonists? What about the Jews or the North African Muslims?

    "Unlike in Central or Northern Europe, whereSteppe ancestry likely marked the introductionof Indo-European languages (12), our resultsindicate that, in Iberia, increases in Steppe ancestry were not always accompanied by switchesto Indo-European languages. ancestry, probably related to the well-knownmobility patterns during the Roman Empire(22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by theobservation of the Phoenician-associated Ychromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from NorthAfrica continued into the Muslim period, asis clear from Muslim burials with elevated NorthAfrican and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig.2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparentalmarkers typical of North Africa not presentamong pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D andfig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry(25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (formerMuslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-daygroups (25)." The impact of Muslim rule is also seen in the Northeast, which explains the small percentages which show up there even today.

    Also interesting is the yDna I2 coming in with the Central European Beakers.

    The mixed "local" Iberian and North African samples are occasionally ydna R1b, so admixture with North African females, as well as the more expected bias.

    Good catch, Alyan, for the Iron Age Greek. If other samples are similar, the Doric invasions wouldn't seem to have changed much at all.

    Now for the Supplement.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #10
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,991
    Points
    258,975
    Level
    100
    Points: 258,975, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    New York Times Science Section review from Zimmerman with quotes from the authors.

    "But in Iberia, the new studies find, the Goyet and Villabruna people coexisted. Hunter-gatherers across the peninsula had a mixture of ancestry from the two peoples.“This is quite amazing, because it’s not happening in other areas,” said Vanessa Villalba-Mouco, the lead author of the Max Planck study, published in Current Biology.
    Ms. Villalba-Mouco speculated that the geography of Iberia — located in a far corner of Europe — may have allowed the Goyet people to endure there after they disappeared elsewhere. “Maybe nobody was bothering these hunter-gatherers,” she said."

    "“I cannot say what it is,” said Roberto Risch, an archaeologist at the Autonomous University of Barcelona, who was not involved in the new studies. But he ruled out wars or massacres as the cause. “It’s not a particularly violent time,” he said.

    "Instead, Dr. Risch suspects “a political process” is the explanation. In their archaeological digs, Dr. Risch and his colleagues have found that Iberian farmers originally lived in egalitarian societies, storing their wealth together and burying their dead in group graves.

    But over several centuries, palaces and fortresses began to rise, and power became concentrated in the hands of a few. Dr. Risch speculated that the cultural shift had something to do with the genetic shift found by Dr. Olalde and his colleagues."

    "In addition, the scientists found a growing amount of North African ancestry in skeletons from the Iron Age. That may reflect trade around the Mediterranean, which brought North Africans to Iberian towns, where they settled down.


    The Basque speak a language that is unrelated to other European tongues. Some researchers have speculated that they descended from a population that had been distinct since the Bronze Age or earlier.
    Genetically, at least, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Before the Roman era, the Basque had DNA that was indistinguishable from that of other Iron Age Iberians.

    The article also refers readers back to the paper on modern Iberian dna published a short while ago.

    That paper, by Clare Bycroft et al was discussed here, but here is the abstract, for convenience.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-08272-w

    "The Iberian Peninsula is linguistically diverse and has a complex demographic history, including a centuries-long period of Muslim rule. Here, we study the fine-scale genetic structure of its population, and the genetic impacts of historical events, leveraging powerful, haplotype-based statistical methods to analyse 1413 individuals from across Spain. We detect extensive fine-scale population structure at extremely fine scales (below 10 Km) in some regions, including Galicia. We identify a major east-west axis of genetic differentiation, and evidence of historical north to south population movement. We find regionally varying fractions of north-west African ancestry (0–11%) in modern-day Iberians, related to an admixture event involving European-like and north-west African-like source populations. We date this event to 860–1120 CE, implying greater genetic impacts in the early half of Muslim rule in Iberia. Together, our results indicate clear genetic impacts of population movements associated with both the Muslim conquest and the subsequent Reconquista."

    Here is our thread where we discuss it.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...hlight=Bycroft
    [IMG][/IMG]


    The Copper Age North African was:
    E1b1b1a(xE1b1b1a1)

    All of the yDna is in Table 4 of the Supplement.


  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    It looks like we've found Y DNA I1 in the Azilian culture and so Solutrean was likely I1 (and I2)!

  12. #12
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,207
    Points
    10,801
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,801, Level: 31
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 449
    Overall activity: 14.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    The Sicilian and S. Italian samples are the closest moderns to the Iron Age Greek, it's only a few mouse hairs east on the PCA
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    The Sicilian and S. Italian samples are the closest moderns to the Iron Age Greek, it's only a few mouse hairs east on the PCA
    Apparently those Greeks are probably Phoenician in origin(???) - perhaps Phoenician + Spanish would produce that result?

  14. #14
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,207
    Points
    10,801
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,801, Level: 31
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 449
    Overall activity: 14.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    Well there's nothing that suggests that. What's interesting is that the Greek is more east than the Mycenaens who plotted with Sicily so maybe Greece took on more Caucasus ancestry and the ancient Greeks were more like Cretans. Just speculating here

  15. #15
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    449
    Points
    5,709
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,709, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 341
    Overall activity: 23.0%


    Country: Canada



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Roman and Greek samples are all R1b, R and 3 J

    http://science.sciencemag.org/conten...blesS1-S5.xlsx

  16. #16
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,991
    Points
    258,975
    Level
    100
    Points: 258,975, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    The Sicilian and S. Italian samples are the closest moderns to the Iron Age Greek, it's only a few mouse hairs east on the PCA
    Who is very close to the Mycenaeans.

    So I guess the Mycenaeans and Iron Age Greeks also had tons of "Levantine" ancestry?????

    "And there shall be heard throughout the land weeping and a gnashing of teeth". :)

    For our forum: lest anyone get confused.
    The people in the Greek settlements have nothing to do with the Phoenicians.

    There are typical Iron Age Iberians, Iron Age Greeks (and Hellenistic and Roman Greeks later on) who plot with Mycenaeans (and modern Sicilians and South Italians), and mixed people.

    I believe I said ten years ago on dna forums, and maybe six years ago on 23andme forums and then here that the Mycenaeans and Classical Age Greeks would be extremely close to modern Southern Italians and Sicilians, closer than to some Greeks. Took tons of abuse for it too.

    @Johen,
    I would have put my money on some R1b Z2103 in there. What are they? Any resolution on the J?

  17. #17
    Elite member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-15
    Posts
    449
    Points
    5,709
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,709, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 341
    Overall activity: 23.0%


    Country: Canada



    "In PCA (Fig. 1C-D), most of the individuals from Empúries form two clusters: one (which we call Empúries1) plotting close to the Iron Age Iberia cluster that includes samples from the nearby site of Ullastret and the other(which we call Empúries2) plotting close to Bronze Age samples from the eastern Mediterranean such as the Mycenaean samples from Greece"

    Empúries2 has 2 J

  18. #18
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,207
    Points
    10,801
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,801, Level: 31
    Level completed: 36%, Points required for next Level: 449
    Overall activity: 14.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Who is very close to the Mycenaeans.

    So I guess the Mycenaeans and Iron Age Greeks also had tons of "Levantine" ancestry?????

    "And there shall be heard throughout the land weeping and a gnashing of teeth". :)

    For our forum: lest anyone get confused.
    The people in the Greek settlements have nothing to do with the Phoenicians.

    There are typical Iron Age Iberians, Iron Age Greeks (and Hellenistic and Roman Greeks later on) who plot with Mycenaeans (and modern Sicilians and South Italians), and mixed people.

    I believe I said ten years ago on dna forums, and maybe six years ago on 23andme forums and then here that the Mycenaeans and Classical Age Greeks would be extremely close to modern Southern Italians and Sicilians, closer than to some Greeks. Took tons of abuse for it too.

    I would put my money on some R1b Z2103 in there.
    Absolutely. Professional studies have proven you right and this one is no exception

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Who is very close to the Mycenaeans.

    So I guess the Mycenaeans and Iron Age Greeks also had tons of "Levantine" ancestry?????

    "And there shall be heard throughout the land weeping and a gnashing of teeth". :)

    For our forum: lest anyone get confused.
    The people in the Greek settlements have nothing to do with the Phoenicians.

    There are typical Iron Age Iberians, Iron Age Greeks (and Hellenistic and Roman Greeks later on) who plot with Mycenaeans (and modern Sicilians and South Italians), and mixed people.

    I believe I said ten years ago on dna forums, and maybe six years ago on 23andme forums and then here that the Mycenaeans and Classical Age Greeks would be extremely close to modern Southern Italians and Sicilians, closer than to some Greeks. Took tons of abuse for it too.

    @Johen,
    I would have put my money on some R1b Z2103 in there. What are they? Any resolution on the J?
    Iirc Lazaridis said they were Phoenician descended

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    14,991
    Points
    258,975
    Level
    100
    Points: 258,975, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    Iirc Lazaridis said they were Phoenician descended
    Lazaridis said WHO was Phoenician descended? The Iberians?

    Before you attribute statements to anyone, especially academics, find the source and quote it.

    The authors say some of the J2 in the south in the later periods may be Phoenician. It could be Carthaginian as well. What does that have to do with the samples in the large Greek settlement in the northeast?

    I suggest you read the paper-carefully-before commenting further.

    @Davef,
    In my real life I never brag, but I've taken abuse from internet jokers who think they're experts on genetics for ten years about various positions I've taken. They deserve to be called out and told they were wrong. .

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Iberians/Tartessians are exclusively L51 and the only Celt is I2a

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Iberians/Tartessians are exclusively L51 and the only Celt is I2a
    I wonder what Tartessian's linguistic affinities are. Are they L51* or just L51? Fun fact: Greeks claimed they started Western civilisation, for whatever reason.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Wow Tartessos is absolutely fascinating, can't believe I never paid attention to it. Also just a friendly reminder to check wiki pages in other languages as they can be way more detailed - that's the case here.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by ToBeOrNotToBe View Post
    I wonder what Tartessian's linguistic affinities are. Are they L51* or just L51? Fun fact: Greeks claimed they started Western civilisation, for whatever reason.
    Probably some distant relative of Iberian and Aquitanian.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points
    ToBeOrNotToBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    31-12-16
    Posts
    1,116


    Country: United Kingdom



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Probably some distant relative of Iberian and Aquitanian.
    Doubt it, no reason for it to be distant if they're all so close to each other.

Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •