Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

[bicicleur 2]

for Muslims and Y DNA it's good to remember that sharia allows mariages between Muslim men and Christian women, but forbids the inverse.

men always want to reproduce their Y DNA

 

[bicicleur 2]

By the late, declining stage of the Muslim rule in Iberia the society had become very fractured among Arab, Berber and native factions, with frequente ethnic tensions (even between the Muslim elite members themselves, Arabs and Berbers were not in unison), and probably less inclusive and much more "caste-like". That would help explain why most of the admixture happened in the early and most glorious period, and not later.

also keep in mind that Al-Andalus was taken over by the Almoravide dynasties from Morrocco
these Almoravides were much more fundamentalistic Muslims than the original Muslim invaders in the 8th century, and they were much less tolerant to non-Muslims

 

[bicicleur 2]

You are right. Els Trocs is in the Pyrenees, just across the French border, so it is not exactly representative of the Iberian peninsula though. This sample is barely a few hundred years older than the Chalcolithic samples from this study. We would still need to figure out exactly how and when M26 got to Iberia.

Actually there is another M26 from MLN in this study that I had missed. It is from the Dolmen de Ansião in Leiria, in central Portugal and is dated 3700-3000 BCE.

Interestingly all the Chalcolithic I2a1a-M26 in the new study are from Portugal (Lisboa or Evora, including Bell Beaker sites) except one from El Mirador near Burgos in Castilla y Leon.

In contrast, the I2a1b-M426 show up in SW, SE, Central and NE Iberia (i.e. in all regions sampled).

At first sight it would appear that they did not spread to Iberia together, as they followed different settlement patterns. But copper metallurgy first appeared in southern Iberia, including the Lisboa and Evora region. M26 later spread to the Atlantic façade of Europe, probably in part with with the Bell Beaker network. The question is where did M26 come from before it got to Portugal? Italy, Greece? Or is it just a coincidence? M26 was already in Portugal just before the Chalcolithic, during the Megalithic period. Therefore, it could be that only G2a-L140 (Z1903) and I2a1b-M426 brought metallurgy from Italy to southern Iberia and M26 just got absorbed in the process?

afaik this M26 form Els Trocs is the earliest identified

there is a lot I2a1b indeed, and I wonder whether some of them wouldn't be unidentified I2a1b1-L161
I2a1b1-L161 was in EN Els Trocs and later it has been identified in many megalithic sites, and also in the earliest farmers on the British Isles


others are I2a-Z161 and R1b-V88, the last in EN Els Trocs
both were identified earlier in the Iron Gates
it seems to me they originated there and ca 7 ka came along with Cardial Ware

 

[bicicleur 2]

Graphics for some information we haven't discussed.
Changes in mtDna and yDna over time since the Bronze/Iron Age. More samples may change the picture somewhat, but I'm surprised there was only 25% H in the Bronze/Iron, and how much in the 10-16th centuries. Where did it come from, or was it selection? In Maciamo's charts, H is today about 41% of the total in Spain.
I'm also surprised there's no yDna "J" until the 3rd century C.E. If the Phoenicians had made an impact you would think it would have shown up before that. It may be it was actually Carthaginians who settled there to some extent, not Phoenicians.

[/IMG]

yes, that striked me too
before arrival of Greeks and Carthago, Iberia must have remained almost 100 % R1b
and Romans and Muslims must have had a larger impact than Greeks and Carthago

most of it R1b-DF27
but in the SW of Iberia (Tartessian) we have today R1b-U152, I cannot imagine this is a late arrival, it must have been 4.5-4 ka
and what about R1b-L21? did they arrive 4.5-4 ka or later, during the Atlantic bronze age?

as for mtDNA H, there seems to be a correlation with the blue eyes, but that is probably a mere coincidence
it looks the Muslims also brought U6 to Iberia

 

[berun]

men always want to reproduce their Y DNA

correct, but under sharia and some generations, a 10% Muslim males will become a 50 or even a 90 as long as their daughters will not be available for Christians.

 

[bicicleur 2]

correct, but under sharia and some generations, a 10% Muslim males will become a 50 or even a 90 as long as their daughters will not be available for Christians.

it is happening in Europe today

 

[Davidtab]

I am reading your opinions, and simply as an amateur, I can say history is history, and facts are facts... Western part of Iberia (Galicia, Portugal, Leon and Extremadura) seems to have the biggest E-M81 impact. If this impact is because of Muslim period, it has non sense at all. Actual Asturias, Cantabria, Leon, North Portugal and Galicia (the Suevian-Gallicense Kingdom - the Roman Gallaecia) were not settled by muslims... muslims took these regions only between 714 and 740. Cities like Lugo, Tuy, Oporto, Braga, Chaves, Salamanca, Zamora and Leon were ocupied by Alfonso I, and muslim territory was away Duero river as soon as in 750... These regions were under muslim rule only 10-20 years... how could it be so much impact of E-M81, much more than regions under muslim rule for more than 300-400 years??? This has no sense at all. It is documented that christians refugees from actual Morocco arrived at NorthWestern Iberia very early (740 Bishop Odoario "and his people" to Lugo for example). I wonder if Northwestern Iberia, as being origin of resistance against muslims, could became a place where christians refugees of other parts of Iberia and even actual Morocco arrived, and that would be the origin of the E-M81 presence in there, as genetic studies date the impact of berber admixture in Iberia about 9th century (2nd and 3rd generation after their arrival, when these "refugees" mixed with autochtonous people). It´s just a theory, I would not understand another explanation in only 10-20-30 years of muslim rule in Northwestern Iberia.

 

[berun]

but I can't understand how happened autosomaly in St. Julia de Ramis, as Girona was under Arab rule 70 years only, but the samples come from an ancient Visigoth castle on the top of a hill, not an usual farmer village on the plain.

 

[berun]

@ Davidtab, also there were many clashes among Arab and Berber tribes as to know who got booty or ruled a rich city, maybe some of such clashes were endless and some tribes sook refuge among Christians, there are many possibilities.

 

[berun]

in fact, the post-Islamic samples from L'Esquerda are devoid of African autosomal

 

[Angela]

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
Minoan_Lasithi 30.8%
Protoboleraz_LCA 28.45%
Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 25.1%
Vinca_MN 13.05%
Hajji_Firuz_ChL 2.6%

And that proves that most of the amateurs who play around with these tools don't know what they're doing. They just throw populations into the mix until they get the result they want. He plots a hair's breath east of Mycenaeans

"In PCA (Fig. 1C-D), most of the individuals from Empúries form two clusters: one (which we call Empúries1) plotting close to the Iron Age Iberia cluster that includes samples from the nearby site of Ullastret and the other(which we call Empúries2) plotting close to Bronze Age samples from the eastern Mediterranean such as the Mycenaean samples from Greece".​

Is that clear enough for you people?

 

[Angela]

A lactase persistence
B blue eyes
C & D skin tone

correct?

Yes, that's right. As you can see the average for Iberians today is about 45% for lactase persistence. I have no idea what caused the selection in the last 2000 years.

 

[Angela]

yes, that striked me too
before arrival of Greeks and Carthago, Iberia must have remained almost 100 % R1b
and Romans and Muslims must have had a larger impact than Greeks and Carthago

most of it R1b-DF27
but in the SW of Iberia (Tartessian) we have today R1b-U152, I cannot imagine this is a late arrival, it must have been 4.5-4 ka
and what about R1b-L21? did they arrive 4.5-4 ka or later, during the Atlantic bronze age?

as for mtDNA H, there seems to be a correlation with the blue eyes, but that is probably a mere coincidence
it looks the Muslims also brought U6 to Iberia

If I interpreted the text correctly, they propose that Greek and Roman dna constitutes on average about 25% of the modern genome of Iberians, which is contrary to what "everyone" had been saying for so long.

While the northeast is only about 2% North African, the rest of the country ranges from 6-9%, with the Portuguese at 10%, so yes, the Central and East Med portion is higher, but of course the cause of that is the brutal expulsion and murder of hundreds of thousands of people.

Perhaps the R1b-U152 and L21 are Urnfield derived, that later pulse from Central Europe? There was probably a good bit of U-152 in the Romans as well.

I've always thought H has some advantageous characteristics. It has steadily increased in Europe since the Neolithic.

 

[Carlos]

Without entering the current feminist e.t.c. And referring to the ancient or relatively old times I think that H is a more submissive and complacent female in her familiar attitude to a male than other haplogroups such as J1c according to what I know so that it is a more dominant female in terms of tribal or family relationships. I think J1c will treat man as equals until he can master it and H maintains an attitude of submission making life easier for man, maybe that's where his success lies. Still and J is the second lineage in Europe which indicates that there are mens to those who should like or simply when they realize it is already too late.

According to FamilyFinder I have 4% for North Africa.

 

[Angela]

As I said, there are too many agenda biased amateurs who either don't know what they're doing with some of these tools, or they deliberately mis-use them.

[/IMG]

 

[Angela]

Don't these North African admixed samples carrying R1b ylines indicate that the admixture wasn't just one sided?

"Local" Iberians who converted to Islam, of which there seem to have been more than a few, could have taken North African women as mates.

[/IMG]

 

[berun]

It would have been a good point to remember Strabo:

The Emporitans formerly lived on a little island off the shore, which is now called Old City , but they now live on the mainland. And their city is a double one, because, in former times, the city had for neighbours some of the Indicetans, who, although they maintained a government of their own, wished, for the sake of security, to have a common wall of circumvallation with the Greeks, with the enclosure in two parts - for it has been divided by a wall through the centre; but in the course of time the two peoples united under the same constitution, which was a mixture of both Barbarian and Greek laws - a thing which has taken place in the case of many other peoples.

 

[berun]

the paper even fails to get a sample about what would be like a Greek colony, well, just as everything Reich does

 

[Ruderico]

Don't these North African admixed samples carrying R1b ylines indicate that the admixture wasn't just one sided?

Why should it be one sided if it started at least during the Roman period?

 

[Carlos]

There would be and by the time the total expulsion would have entered the sack of the expulsions as Moorish so their Iberian, Hispano-Spanish, Spanish-European e.t. It has to be in North Africa and the areas where the expelled went.

But if those samples are used as a mirror they could raise the Iberian North African DNA when it would be reversed.