Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

[halfalp]

Gotaland refers to Gutes afaik. A North Germanic people.

So the Gutes are not the Goths, but the Goths did spoke a confirmed Germanic Language? Common bro, i know you want to challenge ideas and it's a good thing, but not in those kind of exemple.

 

[Ailchu]

The authors say the two groups co-existed for about 500 years before admixed people show up. I don't understand it, but that's what the samples show.

but isn't this strange when you look at the graphics? during those 500 years only 2 people are near 100% and they aren't even the earliest samples of the newcomers. all other samples in those 500 years are already mixed with something else. they are only roughly 60-70% central euro bb. so if those are actually unmixed invaders then they must have contributed way more than 40% admixture at the end of those 500 years so that the resulting population has only 20% less average central euro beaker.

is it stated in the paper that they did not already start to mix during those 500 years or even earlier? i only found pieces of the paper like this one
"The earliest evidence is in 14 individuals dated to ~2500–2000 BCE who coexisted with local people without Steppe ancestry (Fig. 2B). These groups lived in close proximity and admixed to form the Bronze Age population after 2000 BCE with ~40% ancestry from incoming groups (Fig. 2B and fig. S6)."

that could mean that the unmixex farmer group and a already mixing imigrant group were coexisting for 500 years then after 500 years there simply were no unmixed farmers left.

 

[markod]

So the Gutes are not the Goths, but the Goths did spoke a confirmed Germanic Language? Common bro, i know you want to challenge ideas and it's a good thing, but not in those kind of exemple.

Geates/Gutes are the ancestors of the Swedes, i. e. North Germanics. Goths are East Germanic.

 

[halfalp]

But if BB's coming from Steppe through central europe, cohabited with local BB's / local Iberians. How to explain the shift, both in Iberia and the British Islands of y-dna? What kind of social pressure could have been on local men to completely disappear? I mean it's certainly not a coincidence that everywhere where R1a and R1b went, they became dominant? Is it really just nature? Where they physically monsters comparing to their local opponents? Now why did that happened in British Islands, Continental Europe, Eastern Europe and India, but not in Greece and Anatolia? R1b is still the dominant y-dna in modern Greece, modern Armenia and the second after J in Anatolia. So what can explain this, but sample bias? The Greek guy from Empuries probably did spoke Greek, but his genetic is clearly of local Peloponnese-Minoan origin, without Steppe input.

 

[Angela]

But if BB's coming from Steppe through central europe, cohabited with local BB's / local Iberians. How to explain the shift, both in Iberia and the British Islands of y-dna? What kind of social pressure could have been on local men to completely disappear? I mean it's certainly not a coincidence that everywhere where R1a and R1b went, they became dominant? Is it really just nature? Where they physically monsters comparing to their local opponents? Now why did that happened in British Islands, Continental Europe, Eastern Europe and India, but not in Greece and Anatolia? R1b is still the dominant y-dna in modern Greece, modern Armenia and the second after J in Anatolia. So what can explain this, but sample bias? The Greek guy from Empuries probably did spoke Greek, but his genetic is clearly of local Peloponnese-Minoan origin, without Steppe input.

Having to correct the incredible inaccuracies in all of your posts is becoming very tiresome.

The Greek guy from Empuries is specifically stated and shown to be very close to Mycenaeans. Mycenaeans were about 10-20% Steppe. Therefore, he was about 10-20% steppe.

This is not rocket science, for God's sake.

And who the heck told you that R1b is the dominant yDna in Greece? Where in hell do you get this crap?????

The most dominant y line in Greece is E-V13. Second is J2. Only then does R1b show up.

LOOK AT THE CHART.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

 

[Angela]

but isn't this strange when you look at the graphics? during those 500 years only 2 people are near 100% and they aren't even the earliest samples of the newcomers. all other samples in those 500 years are already mixed with something else. they are only roughly 60-70% central euro bb. so if those are actually unmixed invaders then they must have contributed way more than 40% admixture at the end of those 500 years so that the resulting population has only 20% less average central euro beaker.

is it stated in the paper that they did not already start to mix during those 500 years or even earlier? i only found pieces of the paper like this one
"The earliest evidence is in 14 individuals dated to ~2500–2000 BCE who coexisted with local people without Steppe ancestry (Fig. 2B). These groups lived in close proximity and admixed to form the Bronze Age population after 2000 BCE with ~40% ancestry from incoming groups (Fig. 2B and fig. S6)."

that could mean that the unmixex farmer group and a already mixing imigrant group were coexisting for 500 years then after 500 years there simply were no unmixed farmers left.

That's correct Ailchu. I expressed myself badly.

As you can see in the graphic the unmixed farmers, including males, existed for 500 years, and only then disappeared. It doesn't at all look like a whole sale slaughter when they arrived. Nor does it look gradual in terms of the numbers.

[/IMG]

 

[Angela]

Graphics for some information we haven't discussed.

Phenotype snps:

[/IMG]

The red dotted line represents the frequencies of the Iberian samples in 1000 genomes. It doesn't seem that steppe people brought lactase persistence with them. What could have caused the selection in the last 2000 years is beyond me.

Changes in mtDna and yDna over time since the Bronze/Iron Age. More samples may change the picture somewhat, but I'm surprised there was only 25% H in the Bronze/Iron, and how much in the 10-16th centuries. Where did it come from, or was it selection? In Maciamo's charts, H is today about 41% of the total in Spain.

I'm also surprised there's no yDna "J" until the 3rd century C.E. If the Phoenicians had made an impact you would think it would have shown up before that. It may be it was actually Carthaginians who settled there to some extent, not Phoenicians.

[/IMG]

It would have been nice to see this in the regular part of the paper;

[/IMG]

 

[Tomenable]

Have you taken a look at the Ostrogothic guy from Kerch?

Yes, but do you know why exactly was that described as "Ostrogothic"?

Did something in that grave indicate culturally Gothic (genetically not Gothic for sure)?

I think Kerch was never under Gothic rule.

That guy was probably a descendant of Bosporan Kingdom's population:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosporan_Kingdom

 

[Tomenable]

Any attempts of modeling Goths as a mix of other ancient groups should reflect their migration path:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/51.13/28.86

 

[Jovialis]

Pretty cool video for the study.

 

[Ygorcs]

One alternative possibility is that local Iberian women preferred the central European newcomers in a context of "strong social stratification," said Lalueza-Fox.

Lol basically a polite way of saying Bronze Age gold-diggers

I always thought that was a strong possibility: slaughters and warfare casualties disproportionately affecting males, but also subsequent social hierarchy that made most local males "unfit for marriage", and those that were able to find partners and get them pregnant were mostly too unprivileged to be able to raise large families, which in times of very high mortality (and especially infant mortality) meant that their lineages were under really high risk of disappearing at every plague or war.

 

[berun]

ha! who is the R1b guy 100% steppe by 0 AD?

 

[Ygorcs]

Also interesting, only one of the samples from the 10th to 16th centuries, the period of Muslim presence, plots with modern Spaniards, yet most of Spain is around 7,8,9 % North African, with Portugal reaching 10%. So, it would seem that the expulsions and the re-settlement of Spain from north to south had an effect. The authors state most of the admixture was from the earlier centuries. That would explain it, I guess. Those people were "safe" because their admixture was "hidden" by the passage of time, perhaps.

By the late, declining stage of the Muslim rule in Iberia the society had become very fractured among Arab, Berber and native factions, with frequente ethnic tensions (even between the Muslim elite members themselves, Arabs and Berbers were not in unison), and probably less inclusive and much more "caste-like". That would help explain why most of the admixture happened in the early and most glorious period, and not later.

 

[Maciamo]

the other Iberian Paper found M26 in MLN Els Trocs, 5.9-5.65 ka

You are right. Els Trocs is in the Pyrenees, just across the French border, so it is not exactly representative of the Iberian peninsula though. This sample is barely a few hundred years older than the Chalcolithic samples from this study. We would still need to figure out exactly how and when M26 got to Iberia.

Actually there is another M26 from MLN in this study that I had missed. It is from the Dolmen de Ansião in Leiria, in central Portugal and is dated 3700-3000 BCE.

Interestingly all the Chalcolithic I2a1a-M26 in the new study are from Portugal (Lisboa or Evora, including Bell Beaker sites) except one from El Mirador near Burgos in Castilla y Leon.

In contrast, the I2a1b-M426 show up in SW, SE, Central and NE Iberia (i.e. in all regions sampled).

At first sight it would appear that they did not spread to Iberia together, as they followed different settlement patterns. But copper metallurgy first appeared in southern Iberia, including the Lisboa and Evora region. M26 later spread to the Atlantic façade of Europe, probably in part with with the Bell Beaker network. The question is where did M26 come from before it got to Portugal? Italy, Greece? Or is it just a coincidence? M26 was already in Portugal just before the Chalcolithic, during the Megalithic period. Therefore, it could be that only G2a-L140 (Z1903) and I2a1b-M426 brought metallurgy from Italy to southern Iberia and M26 just got absorbed in the process?

 

[berun]

for Muslims and Y DNA it's good to remember that sharia allows mariages between Muslim men and Christian women, but forbids the inverse.

 

[berun]

also a good chunk of African/Levantine DNA must be ancient: Phoenicians, Punics, Blastophoenicians...

 

[halfalp]

Having to correct the incredible inaccuracies in all of your posts is becoming very tiresome.

The Greek guy from Empuries is specifically stated and shown to be very close to Mycenaeans. Mycenaeans were about 10-20% Steppe. Therefore, he was about 10-20% steppe.

This is not rocket science, for God's sake.

And who the heck told you that R1b is the dominant yDna in Greece? Where in hell do you get this crap?????

The most dominant y line in Greece is E-V13. Second is J2. Only then does R1b show up.

LOOK AT THE CHART.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
Minoan_Lasithi 30.8%
Protoboleraz_LCA 28.45%
Kura-Araxes_Kalavan 25.1%
Vinca_MN 13.05%
Hajji_Firuz_ChL 2.6%

 

[berun]

Changes in mtDna and yDna over time since the Bronze/Iron Age. More samples may change the picture somewhat, but I'm surprised there was only 25% H in the Bronze/Iron, and how much in the 10-16th centuries. Where did it come from, or was it selection? In Maciamo's charts, H is today about 41% of the total in Spain.

the fault is that insane way to proceed, mixing outliers is mad, but mixing different territories with different histories just by do a transect in a given region is unprofessional, if do you look at Iberians, mtDNA H is already in actual levels.

 

[bicicleur 2]

That's correct Ailchu. I expressed myself badly.

As you can see in the graphic the unmixed farmers, including males, existed for 500 years, and only then disappeared. It doesn't at all look like a whole sale slaughter when they arrived. Nor does it look gradual in terms of the numbers.

[/IMG]

judging from the graph, I'd say the number of unadmixed and the non-R1b Y-DNA is gradually getting thinner during the last 300 years
taking into account there were also steppe females, 40 % autosomal turnover is hughe

 

[bicicleur 2]

Graphics for some information we haven't discussed.

Phenotype snps:

[/IMG]

The red dotted line represents the frequencies of the Iberian samples in 1000 genomes. It doesn't seem that steppe people brought lactase persistence with them. What could have caused the selection in the last 2000 years is beyond me.

A lactase persistence
B blue eyes
C & D skin tone

correct?