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Thread: Tuscan Gedmatch results from Poggio a Caiano

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    Tuscan Gedmatch results from Poggio a Caiano

    Eurogenes K15


    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Tuscan 5.89
    2 West_Sicilian 8.17
    3 Greek 8.27
    4 Italian_Abruzzo 8.43
    5 North_Italian 9.45
    6 Central_Greek 10.58
    7 East_Sicilian 10.8
    8 Greek_Thessaly 10.94
    9 South_Italian 12.1
    10 Ashkenazi 12.88
    11 Bulgarian 12.93
    12 Romanian 14.82
    13 Spanish_Andalucia 15.07
    14 Spanish_Extremadura 15.99
    15 Italian_Jewish 16.09
    16 Sephardic_Jewish 16.47
    17 Spanish_Murcia 16.52
    18 Portuguese 16.75
    19 Spanish_Valencia 16.82
    20 Algerian_Jewish 16.89

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 74.1% Central_Greek + 25.9% French_Basque @ 3.89
    2 54.5% Southwest_French + 45.5% Cyprian @ 4.02
    3 59.9% Central_Greek + 40.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.25
    4 67.1% Central_Greek + 32.9% Southwest_French @ 4.33
    5 67.5% Greek + 32.5% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.54
    6 66.4% Central_Greek + 33.6% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.6
    7 64% Central_Greek + 36% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.62
    8 63.7% South_Italian + 36.3% Southwest_French @ 4.64
    9 74.3% East_Sicilian + 25.7% French_Basque @ 4.7
    10 71.3% Greek + 28.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.71
    11 63.1% Central_Greek + 36.9% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.74
    12 80.6% Greek + 19.4% French_Basque @ 4.76
    13 73.6% Greek + 26.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.81
    14 66.8% Central_Greek + 33.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.83
    15 66.9% East_Sicilian + 33.1% Southwest_French @ 4.85
    16 55.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 44.6% Cyprian @ 5
    17 59.8% East_Sicilian + 40.2% Spanish_Andalucia @ 5
    18 62% Southwest_French + 38% Assyrian @ 5.05
    19 68.7% Tuscan + 31.3% Greek @ 5.09
    20 62.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 37.7% Cyprian @ 5.1
    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 21.13
    2 Atlantic 21.01
    3 East_Med 19.46
    4 West_Asian 12.3
    5 North_Sea 8.84
    6 Baltic 6.79
    7 Eastern_Euro 5.73
    8 Red_Sea 4.29
    9 Oceanian 0.46

    PuntDNAL K13 Global


    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Italian_Tuscan 3.68
    2 Albanian 3.99
    3 Greek_Thessaly 4.26
    4 Kosovar 5.16
    5 Italian_Abruzzo 5.6
    6 Greek_Central 7.37
    7 Italian_Bergamo 9.2
    8 Macedonian 9.21
    9 Bulgarian 9.44
    10 Ashkenazy_Jew 10.21
    11 Italian_Sicilian 10.99
    12 Romanian 12.25
    13 Montenegrin 12.38
    14 Sephardic_Jew 14.44
    15 Serbian 14.54
    16 Spaniard 14.78
    17 Bosnian 18.32
    18 French 19.32
    19 Croatian 19.74
    20 Moldavian 20.62

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 75.7% Italian_Bergamo + 24.3% Syrian @ 2.1
    2 69.4% Spaniard + 30.6% Assyrian @ 2.14
    3 76.6% Italian_Bergamo + 23.4% Jordanian @ 2.18
    4 64.1% Italian_Sicilian + 35.9% French @ 2.18
    5 91.5% Italian_Tuscan + 8.5% Palestinian @ 2.19
    6 76.8% Italian_Bergamo + 23.2% Lebanese_Muslim @ 2.19
    7 90.8% Italian_Tuscan + 9.2% Jordanian @ 2.19
    8 63.1% Spaniard + 36.9% Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.21
    9 83% Italian_Tuscan + 17% Sephardic_Jew @ 2.24
    10 78.1% Italian_Bergamo + 21.9% Palestinian @ 2.24
    11 92.5% Italian_Tuscan + 7.5% Egyptian_Copts @ 2.25
    12 92.2% Italian_Tuscan + 7.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 2.26
    13 76.3% Italian_Bergamo + 23.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 2.28
    14 79% Italian_Abruzzo + 21% French @ 2.29
    15 93.4% Italian_Tuscan + 6.6% Yemeni @ 2.29
    16 94.3% Italian_Tuscan + 5.7% Saudi @ 2.3
    17 94.9% Italian_Tuscan + 5.1% Bedouin @ 2.33
    18 92.5% Italian_Tuscan + 7.5% Egyptian @ 2.35
    19 90.8% Italian_Tuscan + 9.2% Syrian @ 2.36
    20 77.9% Italian_Tuscan + 22.1% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 2.38
    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 40.1
    2 NE_Europe 25.17
    3 West_Asia 18.96
    4 SW_Asia 12.54
    5 NE_Asia 0.93
    6 Oceania 0.92
    7 South_Africa 0.61
    8 Americas 0.52
    9 South_Asia 0.24

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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Tell us something we don't know. Wow, Tuscany is in between Greeks and Spaniards. I could have told you that by looking at a map.

    As a half-quasi Tuscan am I supposed to cry because a gedmatch calculator says Tuscans are pulled southeast from Bergamo or Spain? Stop using gedmatch results to push your agenda. You don't understand how they're done or how to interpret them.

    What's the matter, does it sting that all the B.S. you guys peddled on Stormfront and theapricity and even here about how there was no North African in Iberians and that some of it, at least, came with Muslims is now proven to be false disturb your sleep?

    You think I don't know you and your agenda? Go away you t-roll.

    Racists can never fathom that other people might not be racist.

    Just because you think North Africans and Near Easterners are a lower form of life doesn't mean I do.

    Suck it up, buddy, the Anatolian farmers, who had a big chunk of "Levantine" in them are the biggest ancestral component in Europe, and more than average percentages are present in southern Europe. You're not "indigenous", and you're not Nordic. Go cry in your beer.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    On PCA MAPS like eurogenes k15 I am more North than Tuscan average, my puntdnal k15,

    1.Italian 2.92
    2.Montenegrin3.15

    3Bulgarian4.84
    4Romanian5.14
    5Albanian5.84
    6Greek_Thessaly6.76
    7Macedonian7.01
    8Tuscan7.48
    9Greek_Central9.14
    10Bosnian10.14
    11Spaniard11.24
    12Portuguese11.39
    13Serbian12.91
    14Brazilian13.41
    15French14.33
    16Ashkenazy_Jew15.93
    17South_German17.06
    18Sicilian17.09
    19Utahn_White17.8
    20Croatian


    18.37Mixed Mode Population Sharing:# Primary Population (source)Secondary Population (source)Distance1 80.4%Albanian+19.6%[email protected] 79.1%Albanian+20.9%English@1.823 79.6%Albanian+20.4%[email protected] 76.2%Albanian+23.8%[email protected] 53.6%Romanian+46.4%[email protected] 81.7%Albanian+18.3%[email protected] 83.1%Albanian+16.9%[email protected] 75.4%Albanian+24.6%[email protected] 79.1%Albanian+20.9%[email protected] 79.1%Albanian+20.9%[email protected] 80.9%Albanian+19.1%[email protected] 72.1%Albanian+27.9%[email protected] 84.6%Albanian+15.4%[email protected] 69.5%French+30.5%[email protected] 60.4%Romanian+39.6%[email protected] 69.8%Montenegrin+30.2%[email protected] 75.4%Montenegrin+24.6%[email protected] 79.7%Albanian+20.3%[email protected] 75%Tuscan+25%[email protected] 74.6%Tuscan+25.4%[email protected]

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    2 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tell us something we don't know. Wow, Tuscany is in between Greeks and Spaniards. I could have told you that by looking at a map.

    As a half-quasi Tuscan am I supposed to cry because a gedmatch calculator says Tuscans are pulled southeast from Bergamo or Spain? Stop using gedmatch results to push your agenda. You don't understand how they're done or how to interpret them.

    What's the matter, does it sting that all the B.S. you guys peddled on Stormfront and theapricity and even here about how there was no North African in Iberians and that some of it, at least, came with Muslims is now proven to be false disturb your sleep?

    You think I don't know you and your agenda? Go away you t-roll.

    Racists can never fathom that other people might not be racist.

    Just because you think North Africans and Near Easterners are a lower form of life doesn't mean I do.

    Suck it up, buddy, the Anatolian farmers, who had a big chunk of "Levantine" in them are the biggest ancestral component in Europe, and more than average percentages are present in southern Europe. You're not "indigenous", and you're not Nordic. Go cry in your beer.



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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tell us something we don't know. Wow, Tuscany is in between Greeks and Spaniards. I could have told you that by looking at a map.
    As a half-quasi Tuscan am I supposed to cry because a gedmatch calculator says Tuscans are pulled southeast from Bergamo or Spain? Stop using gedmatch results to push your agenda. You don't understand how they're done or how to interpret them.
    What's the matter, does it sting that all the B.S. you guys peddled on Stormfront and theapricity and even here about how there was no North African in Iberians and that some of it, at least, came with Muslims is now proven to be false disturb your sleep?
    You think I don't know you and your agenda? Go away you t-roll.
    Racists can never fathom that other people might not be racist.
    Just because you think North Africans and Near Easterners are a lower form of life doesn't mean I do.
    Suck it up, buddy, the Anatolian farmers, who had a big chunk of "Levantine" in them are the biggest ancestral component in Europe, and more than average percentages are present in southern Europe. You're not "indigenous", and you're not Nordic. Go cry in your beer.
    I was exploring around and found this thread. I must be late. je je je I confess I really don't know about the author intention, but you're in the field much longer than I am. Anyway, I'm on it long enough to get what you're saying and why you're saying. Well, I'm an optimistic. Fortunately, at least nowadays, most of people, here in Eupedia or in the real world - especially in open societies with free and easy access to info -, intelligent or not, tend to demonstrate a decent critical thinking (https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oolish-things/), and most of them just don't care at all about this stuff. Nothing wrong in feeling ok with your own ethnicity - or whatever -, really. It's natural. I certainly do. But sure, there will always be some noisy few aliens, generally unaware of their condition of isolation, from everywhere and from all ethnic profiles, haplogroups, religions... It doesn't matter. The idiots will get together to idiotize each other even more, and let's not full ourselves: realistically, they will always exist, even if at relatively low numbers. The shadows of internet must be a proper habitat for these silly creatures. Well, some of them are just too young, and real maturation may be or may be not powered by aging, depending on the situation.
    With regard to the nordicism in specific (just one kind of fanaticism among innumerable), and its weirdos agents, I think it must be associated sometimes with the socioeconomical configuration of the historical period we live, besides lots of projection, introjection etc. But let's keep the details aside. For them, apparently, "Europe" acquired a symbolic meaning in this ground, and they arbitrary established the idea that European ancestry is the one that must have been there since the "mark" of Mesolithic at least. Why exactly the Mesolithic? Who knows! I have some ideas, but I'll spare you. ;) Not that it really matters anyway, but the convenience is ironic, since it has this "problem" you noticed: the ENF ancestry, very heavy in almost all Europe. The main way the brilliant minds conciliate this fact with their agenda is the Y-DNA, I guess. Firstly, the men of all times sharing the same Y "stamp" become part of their "gang" - or tribe. Thanks to, say, an adenine in the position 9999999 of Y chromosome. God bless it! Lol Naturally, never mind we're talking essentially on a tool for tracing ancestral movements, rather than anything else. Never mind the mtDNA, and never mind the millions of SNPs inherited from the Neolithic Anatolians. If the superbeast Y macro-hg is outside Europe too, well, either it was an invasion or it's an irrelevant Paleolithic issue. Plus, there is another brilliant tacit message: "Well, ok. We got some of it (ENF), but it's less than the 'European' part". je je je Or even better: "Well, we got some of it, but that's just because 'we' (?) did the EEF females." Lol You know, females are not people, right? Part of them seem to be even happy - with a bright in the "eyes" - because some male ancestors may have killed other male ancestors (it probably happened at some degree, but this is not the point). It's like to think it's pretty cool your paternal grandfather killing your maternal grandfather. I'm sure it's not sociopathy in most cases. It's just stupid.

    Finally, it must be said that many of them, in real world, are just pussycats that wouldn't hurt a fly.

    This is how these "children" feel they are:


    And this is who they really are:


    Well, that's enough. It's probably a matter to be discussed in Politics or Psychology forums, depending on the "disease". je je Plus, it probably doesn't deserve much more atention than this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I was exploring around and found this thread. I must be late. je je je I confess I really don't know about the author intention, but you're in the field much longer than I am. Anyway, I'm on it long enough to get what you're saying and why you're saying. Well, I'm an optimistic. Fortunately, at least nowadays, most of people, here in Eupedia or in the real world - especially in open societies with free and easy access to info -, intelligent or not, tend to demonstrate a decent critical thinking (https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oolish-things/), and most of them just don't care at all about this stuff. Nothing wrong in feeling ok with your own ethnicity - or whatever -, really. It's natural. I certainly do. But sure, there will always be some noisy few aliens, generally unaware of their condition of isolation, from everywhere and from all ethnic profiles, haplogroups, religions... It doesn't matter. The idiots will get together to idiotize each other even more, and let's not full ourselves: realistically, they will always exist, even if at relatively low numbers. The shadows of internet must be a proper habitat for these silly creatures. Well, some of them are just too young, and real maturation may be or may be not powered by aging, depending on the situation.
    With regard to the nordicism in specific (just one kind of fanaticism among innumerable), and its weirdos agents, I think it must be associated sometimes with the socioeconomical configuration of the historical period we live, besides lots of projection, introjection etc. But let's keep the details aside. For them, apparently, "Europe" acquired a symbolic meaning in this ground, and they arbitrary established the idea that European ancestry is the one that must have been there since the "mark" of Mesolithic at least. Why exactly the Mesolithic? Who knows! I have some ideas, but I'll spare you. ;) Not that it really matters anyway, but the convenience is ironic, since it has this "problem" you noticed: the ENF ancestry, very heavy in almost all Europe. The main way the brilliant minds conciliate this fact with their agenda is the Y-DNA, I guess. Firstly, the men of all times sharing the same Y "stamp" become part of their "gang" - or tribe. Thanks to, say, an adenine in the position 9999999 of Y chromosome. God bless it! Lol Naturally, never mind we're talking essentially on a tool for tracing ancestral movements, rather than anything else. Never mind the mtDNA, and never mind the millions of SNPs inherited from the Neolithic Anatolians. If the superbeast Y macro-hg is outside Europe too, well, either it was an invasion or it's an irrelevant Paleolithic issue. Plus, there is another brilliant tacit message: "Well, ok. We got some of it (ENF), but it's less than the 'European' part". je je je Or even better: "Well, we got some of it, but that's just because 'we' (?) did the EEF females." Lol You know, females are not people, right? Part of them seem to be even happy - with a bright in the "eyes" - because some male ancestors may have killed other male ancestors (it probably happened at some degree, but this is not the point). It's like to think it's pretty cool your paternal grandfather killing your maternal grandfather. I'm sure it's not sociopathy in most cases. It's just stupid.

    Finally, it must be said that many of them, in real world, are just pussycats that wouldn't hurt a fly.

    This is how these "children" feel they are:


    And this is who they really are:


    Well, that's enough. It's probably a matter to be discussed in Politics or Psychology forums, depending on the "disease". je je Plus, it probably doesn't deserve much more atention than this.
    I couldn't agree more...with all of it. :)

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    I don't understand his (or others with his p.o.v.) problem with components like "eastern Mediterranean"..there are samples from some of the best civilizations in history that score high in this. The Mycenaeans, the Egyptian samples, the Canaanites, they all scored this as their first or second highest and I'm willing to bet the ancient romans did score high in this as well. But it must be the wrong thing to have to some people due to how it pulls you South on a pca
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I don't understand his (or others with his p.o.v.) problem with components like "eastern Mediterranean"..there are samples from some of the best civilizations in history that score high in this. The Mycenaeans, the Egyptian samples, the Canaanites, they all scored this as their first or second highest and I'm willing to bet the ancient romans did score high in this as well. But it must be the wrong thing to have to some people due to how it pulls you South on a pca
    It's not about the past and its great civilizations. It's about the modern people. They don't want to have anything to do with those brown "Muslims" and those swarthy "Arabs" (which is a term applied to basically anyone between Morocco and Afghanistan, including all sorts of non-Arab and even non-Muslim ethnicities). These people are usually of the kind that will keep insisting on that those great civilizations were "originally", "at their start" founded by more northern people, because, since they can't convince people those civilizations were "reeeally white" (which they equate with North European), then the second best option is to say that they founded them and later mixed too much with the locals. Ha! So "clever", huh?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    I was exploring around and found this thread. I must be late. je je je I confess I really don't know about the author intention, but you're in the field much longer than I am. Anyway, I'm on it long enough to get what you're saying and why you're saying. Well, I'm an optimistic. Fortunately, at least nowadays, most of people, here in Eupedia or in the real world - especially in open societies with free and easy access to info -, intelligent or not, tend to demonstrate a decent critical thinking (https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...oolish-things/), and most of them just don't care at all about this stuff. Nothing wrong in feeling ok with your own ethnicity - or whatever -, really. It's natural. I certainly do. But sure, there will always be some noisy few aliens, generally unaware of their condition of isolation, from everywhere and from all ethnic profiles, haplogroups, religions... It doesn't matter. The idiots will get together to idiotize each other even more, and let's not full ourselves: realistically, they will always exist, even if at relatively low numbers. The shadows of internet must be a proper habitat for these silly creatures. Well, some of them are just too young, and real maturation may be or may be not powered by aging, depending on the situation.
    With regard to the nordicism in specific (just one kind of fanaticism among innumerable), and its weirdos agents, I think it must be associated sometimes with the socioeconomical configuration of the historical period we live, besides lots of projection, introjection etc. But let's keep the details aside. For them, apparently, "Europe" acquired a symbolic meaning in this ground, and they arbitrary established the idea that European ancestry is the one that must have been there since the "mark" of Mesolithic at least. Why exactly the Mesolithic? Who knows! I have some ideas, but I'll spare you. ;) Not that it really matters anyway, but the convenience is ironic, since it has this "problem" you noticed: the ENF ancestry, very heavy in almost all Europe. The main way the brilliant minds conciliate this fact with their agenda is the Y-DNA, I guess. Firstly, the men of all times sharing the same Y "stamp" become part of their "gang" - or tribe. Thanks to, say, an adenine in the position 9999999 of Y chromosome. God bless it! Lol Naturally, never mind we're talking essentially on a tool for tracing ancestral movements, rather than anything else. Never mind the mtDNA, and never mind the millions of SNPs inherited from the Neolithic Anatolians. If the superbeast Y macro-hg is outside Europe too, well, either it was an invasion or it's an irrelevant Paleolithic issue. Plus, there is another brilliant tacit message: "Well, ok. We got some of it (ENF), but it's less than the 'European' part". je je je Or even better: "Well, we got some of it, but that's just because 'we' (?) did the EEF females." Lol You know, females are not people, right? Part of them seem to be even happy - with a bright in the "eyes" - because some male ancestors may have killed other male ancestors (it probably happened at some degree, but this is not the point). It's like to think it's pretty cool your paternal grandfather killing your maternal grandfather. I'm sure it's not sociopathy in most cases. It's just stupid.

    Finally, it must be said that many of them, in real world, are just pussycats that wouldn't hurt a fly.

    This is how these "children" feel they are:


    And this is who they really are:


    Well, that's enough. It's probably a matter to be discussed in Politics or Psychology forums, depending on the "disease". je je Plus, it probably doesn't deserve much more atention than this.
    The Y-DNA mania and its huge overestimation we often see is really a matter of either ignorance on the topic of population genetics. I can't tell how many times I had to tell people to remind that a Y-DNA haplogroup essentially tells you aboutnot just your paternal ancestry (our mothers matter, don't they?), but even then just one among countless paternal ancestors of us, because it links us to the one unbroken male-only lineage we have. It's important to trace population movements, but so many people judging whether people are related or not, or where people's ancestry came from, based exclusively on Y-DNA haplogroups gets on my nerves, because invariably they make wrong conclusions or totally unsubstantiated claims (some examples I have seen recently are "Greeks have nothing to do with Western Europeans and don't share ancestry with them, because they 'are' E1b1b and J2, and Western Europeans are R1b' - never mind the ridiculous simplification of the Y-DNA distribution of large populations). By the way, I have grown extremely wary (perhaps even irritated) at such things as they were a R1b people or a J2 people mixed with a R1a people. I get what some people mean, but that kind of thing only reinforces the wrong notion that people who don't understand population genetics have that you can determine a people's entire ancestry based on one little marker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    The Y-DNA mania and its huge overestimation we often see is really a matter of either ignorance on the topic of population genetics. I can't tell how many times I had to tell people to remind that a Y-DNA haplogroup essentially tells you aboutnot just your paternal ancestry (our mothers matter, don't they?), but even then just one among countless paternal ancestors of us, because it links us to the one unbroken male-only lineage we have. It's important to trace population movements, but so many people judging whether people are related or not, or where people's ancestry came from, based exclusively on Y-DNA haplogroups gets on my nerves, because invariably they make wrong conclusions or totally unsubstantiated claims (some examples I have seen recently are "Greeks have nothing to do with Western Europeans and don't share ancestry with them, because they 'are' E1b1b and J2, and Western Europeans are R1b' - never mind the ridiculous simplification of the Y-DNA distribution of large populations). By the way, I have grown extremely wary (perhaps even irritated) at such things as they were a R1b people or a J2 people mixed with a R1a people. I get what some people mean, but that kind of thing only reinforces the wrong notion that people who don't understand population genetics have that you can determine a people's entire ancestry based on one little marker.
    Yeah, I get what you're saying. Well noticed, and well said.

    @Ygorcs @Davef
    There seems to be kind of a script; with some variations, of course, but generally predictable. As suggested, if certain civilization was advanced, say, a Middle Eastern one, that kind of people may try to evidence some Northern influence, if there is any room for it (which may include even the lack of data), creating a certain context through any minor admixture, haplogroups, rutilism or even trans-cultural diffusion - when other strategies fail. If any of these signs is there, even if in isolation, it becomes authomatically a virtual "proof" (yes, it may be an evidence occasionally, and that's why genetic tests are done in the first place). If it's not there, against all predictions, it "is" sampling bias (yes, it may be sometimes), or the elite was not tested or had just a minor genetic influence (perhaps). If it's in the "wrong" - inconvenient - place and time, at relevant numbers and associated to cultural changes, then its presence is not a proof of anything anymore (possibly it's not). Funny enough, many times the folks of the supposed (elite) vectors of all advances didn't do the same job in their own homeland. There is no doubts, coherence, nor openness to different possibilities, commonly demanded by the very high complexity of history. That's the problem. There is this strong attachment to certain narratives, rather than to the searching of facts as they must have been. It looks really strange for open-minded people and science enthusiasts.

    Sometimes the genetic/cultural influence may have happened in any way, sure, but again: this is not the point at all. I'm not talking about each case or hypothesis in isolation, but on these predictable and convenient scripts, specific "patterns", doble standard/incoherence, negation of data, their "torture" - the obsession to fit them to an agenda -, discarding of conflicting evidences, etc., generally followed by some subjacent prejudice. It's important to make clear that the genetic signs (or their lack) I mentioned may be used per se to do the job of understanding ancient movements and influences, yes, together with other signs - complementary or competing - , in a multidisciplinary approach, when they exist. Thing is some of these people already had virtually all answers for almost everything, since years ago, even before some important papers came out, when it's expected our conjectures/speculations are changed or refined as more data emerge. You know, in front such complexities, it's virtually impossible to be always right. But these kind of dudes are, of course. je je je

    Oh! And never mind other "sub-symbols" such as "Indo-Europeans", blondism, lighteness etc., per se interesting subjects/traits to be studied, but obscure when inserted in certain contexts or agendas, or when discussed in a certain way. Even being a stuff more than 100 years old, sometimes I have this feeling that Nazis and their narrative somewhat "infected" the subconscious/unconscious of some people, generally young, who are not necessarily actual Nazis nor symphatizers. Even after all this time. And not just them (Nazis). There is also the example of slavery of black people, among many other shadows of the past. We're still living their consequences.

    We could stay here forever listing some additional harmful biases and behaviors. I focused only in few. Anyway, the professional haters, many of them just sad people, are spread all around, being naturally common to all backgrounds. So, ironically, radicals of this kind are not even original in their self-perception of superiority. Lol They think they're supermen, but they're ordinary, which doesn't mean being numerous. They just need to seek "reasons" for their stuff, while "reasoning", you know, may be a threat. :)

    As for confusions related to Y-DNA etc., yeah, I myself feel more or less that way sometimes. But frequently it's just lack of knowledge, not dishonesty. These dudes were not the "target". Of course, it becomes more problematic when the mecanism is well explained and even then some people don't internalize it, for unconfessable motivations, inadvertent or not. I say it 'cause it doesn't seem much complicated, really. I guess almost everybody with minimal knowledge are capable to really get it, but some of them just refuse to do it.
    And the same way it's not all about Nordicism, it's not all about R1 either, obviously. As an example, time ago a biased Admin of a minor group I joined believed that certain Neolithic hg was European, based on a convenient missinterpretation of a paper. I politely explained his reading was wrong, and he summarily expeled me from there. So... It's everywhere.

    Still, while Y-DNA makes more sense in big numbers, helping to track movements, being intellectually curious about your own hg makes no harm. Particularly, I think it's fun, and deep tests may both serve the curiosity and help this science we love.
    Oh, and to put things in perspective, mtDNA has 37 genes in its whole ~16500 base pairs. ;)

    Obviously, "normal" people shouldn't be upset with what we're talking on. This is not being addressed to them. It's a matter of critical thinking, reasonableness, vs their opposite, including intellectual dishonesty. Not Europe(ans) vs Middle East(erns) - or whatever. So I'm not alluding to anyone in particular. Rather, I'm trying to roughly describe a general profile. Anyone could disagree with all of this, naturally, but getting angry may be a sympton of the "illness" to which I'm referring. Something to think about. :)

    Finally, at the end, populational genetics and genetic genealogy, as genetics as a whole, are fascinating stuff. Really fascinating! None of the freaks will manage to screw it up. In fact, some lunatics must be desperate because genetics proved we're not "pure". We're the result of many movements between distant places, both ancient and recent. This is the way it was, and this is who we are. They'll have to accept this soon or later.

    I didn't imagine the subject would unroll this way, but here we are. :) I'm really done now. Cheers!

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    Yes, even when samples from famous civilizations were found to be genetically further than what these t-rolls wanted them to be, they would always use the same chess defense when under attack aka claiming they were peasants/not a representative sample/researchers are biased. They will never change.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    His position on K15, slightly shifted to Greece Thessaly.







    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I don't understand his (or others with his p.o.v.) problem with components like "eastern Mediterranean"..there are samples from some of the best civilizations in history that score high in this. The Mycenaeans, the Egyptian samples, the Canaanites, they all scored this as their first or second highest and I'm willing to bet the ancient romans did score high in this as well. But it must be the wrong thing to have to some people due to how it pulls you South on a pca

    East Med arrived with the first EEFs, below the results of the EEFs found in Germany and Hungary 7000 years ago



    LBK, Stuttgart, 7000 years ago

    Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 43.75
    2 East_Med 35.15
    3 North_Atlantic 18.25
    4 Red_Sea 2.61
    5 Baltic 0.24

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sardinian 14.31
    2 Algerian_Jewish 22.46
    3 West_Sicilian 23.17
    4 Italian_Jewish 23.34
    5 South_Italian 23.84
    6 Tuscan 24.53
    7 Sephardic_Jewish 25.3
    8 East_Sicilian 25.54
    9 Central_Greek 26.36
    10 Ashkenazi 26.45
    11 North_Italian 26.82
    12 Italian_Abruzzo 27.03
    13 Tunisian_Jewish 27.18
    14 Libyan_Jewish 27.24
    15 Greek_Thessaly 28.58
    16 Tunisian 29
    17 Algerian 29.53
    18 Moroccan 29.58
    19 Mozabite_Berber 29.75
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 29.8

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 76.3% Sardinian + 23.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 7.88
    2 75.4% Sardinian + 24.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 8.03
    3 80.1% Sardinian + 19.9% Yemenite_Jewish @ 8.08
    4 74.6% Sardinian + 25.4% Samaritan @ 8.14
    5 65.1% Sardinian + 34.9% Italian_Jewish @ 8.19
    6 69% Sardinian + 31% Tunisian_Jewish @ 8.3
    7 64.2% Sardinian + 35.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 8.34
    8 69.2% Sardinian + 30.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 8.47
    9 76.8% Sardinian + 23.2% Palestinian @ 8.68
    10 72.4% Sardinian + 27.6% Cyprian @ 8.8
    11 67.9% Sardinian + 32.1% Sephardic_Jewish @ 8.92
    12 77.8% Sardinian + 22.2% Jordanian @ 9.31
    13 76.9% Sardinian + 23.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 9.54
    14 78% Sardinian + 22% Egyptian @ 9.57
    15 70.1% Sardinian + 29.9% Ashkenazi @ 9.76
    16 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 9.84
    17 77.7% Sardinian + 22.3% Syrian @ 9.85
    18 79% Sardinian + 21% Bedouin @ 9.88
    19 80.5% Sardinian + 19.5% Kurdish_Jewish @ 9.88
    20 82.4% Sardinian + 17.6% Saudi @ 9.92NE1, Hungary

    NE1, Hungary 7000 years ago

    Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 43.75
    2 East_Med 35.15
    3 North_Atlantic 18.25
    4 Red_Sea 2.61
    5 Baltic 0.24

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Sardinian 14.31
    2 Algerian_Jewish 22.46
    3 West_Sicilian 23.17
    4 Italian_Jewish 23.34
    5 South_Italian 23.84
    6 Tuscan 24.53
    7 Sephardic_Jewish 25.3
    8 East_Sicilian 25.54
    9 Central_Greek 26.36
    10 Ashkenazi 26.45
    11 North_Italian 26.82
    12 Italian_Abruzzo 27.03
    13 Tunisian_Jewish 27.18
    14 Libyan_Jewish 27.24
    15 Greek_Thessaly 28.58
    16 Tunisian 29
    17 Algerian 29.53
    18 Moroccan 29.58
    19 Mozabite_Berber 29.75
    20 Spanish_Andalucia 29.8

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 76.3% Sardinian + 23.7% Lebanese_Druze @ 7.88
    2 75.4% Sardinian + 24.6% Lebanese_Christian @ 8.03
    3 80.1% Sardinian + 19.9% Yemenite_Jewish @ 8.08
    4 74.6% Sardinian + 25.4% Samaritan @ 8.14
    5 65.1% Sardinian + 34.9% Italian_Jewish @ 8.19
    6 69% Sardinian + 31% Tunisian_Jewish @ 8.3
    7 64.2% Sardinian + 35.8% Algerian_Jewish @ 8.34
    8 69.2% Sardinian + 30.8% Libyan_Jewish @ 8.47
    9 76.8% Sardinian + 23.2% Palestinian @ 8.68
    10 72.4% Sardinian + 27.6% Cyprian @ 8.8
    11 67.9% Sardinian + 32.1% Sephardic_Jewish @ 8.92
    12 77.8% Sardinian + 22.2% Jordanian @ 9.31
    13 76.9% Sardinian + 23.1% Lebanese_Muslim @ 9.54
    14 78% Sardinian + 22% Egyptian @ 9.57
    15 70.1% Sardinian + 29.9% Ashkenazi @ 9.76
    16 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% Iranian_Jewish @ 9.84
    17 77.7% Sardinian + 22.3% Syrian @ 9.85
    18 79% Sardinian + 21% Bedouin @ 9.88
    19 80.5% Sardinian + 19.5% Kurdish_Jewish @ 9.88
    20 82.4% Sardinian + 17.6% Saudi @ 9.92

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    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    They will never change.
    They might. Especially the young, I guess. :)

    Quote Originally Posted by brick View Post
    East Med arrived with the first EEFs, below the results of the EEFs found in Germany and Hungary 7000 years ago

    LBK, Stuttgart, 7000 years ago

    Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_Med 43.75
    2 East_Med 35.15
    3 North_Atlantic 18.25
    4 Red_Sea 2.61
    5 Baltic 0.24
    ?
    These are "modern" clusters. It's like saying North Atlantic arrived with EEF. Certainly it has a chunck of it.

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    They might. Especially the young, I guess. :)

    ?
    These are "modern" clusters. It's like saying North Atlantic arrived with EEF. Certainly it has a chunck of it.
    What he was trying to show is the ridiculousness of claims that "East Med" showing up in modern calculators necessarily indicates a relatively recent arrival of ancestry from Anatolia or the Levant or wherever, i.e. Iron Age or later.

    It might and it might not. There's no time stamp on these genetic clusters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What he was trying to show is the ridiculousness of claims that "East Med" showing up in modern calculators necessarily indicates a relatively recent arrival of ancestry from Anatolia or the Levant or wherever, i.e. Iron Age or later.

    It might and it might not. There's no time stamp on these genetic clusters.
    Got it now.
    Yes. Good part of it may be assigned to farmers.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What he was trying to show is the ridiculousness of claims that "East Med" showing up in modern calculators necessarily indicates a relatively recent arrival of ancestry from Anatolia or the Levant or wherever, i.e. Iron Age or later.

    It might and it might not. There's no time stamp on these genetic clusters.
    I feel like the absence of Semite/Canaanite in my results in Mytrueancestry, for example; shows that what ever large-scale movement that came from Anatolia was in the early to middle Bronze-Age. A big part of this dubious label of "eastern med" is related to the Aegean/Anatolian Bronze-age (Anatolian_N+Iranian Farmer) that spread in many directions across Eurasia. Who mixed with people that are exclusive to the times and places that they were in, which is why the label "Eastern Mediterranean" is meaningless. No matter how hard imbeciles try to make a bad word out of it. Of course there's nothing wrong with it, if there was. But we all know the kind of provocations that are being made.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I feel like the absence of Semite/Canaanite in my results in Mytrueancestry, for example; shows that what ever large-scale movement that came from Anatolia was in the early to middle Bronze-Age. A big part of this dubious label of "eastern med" is related to the Aegean/Anatolian Bronze-age (Anatolian_N+Iranian Farmer) that spread in many directions across Eurasia. Who mixed with people that are exclusive to the times and places that they were in, which is why the label "Eastern Mediterranean" is meaningless. No matter how hard imbeciles try to make a bad word out of it. Of course there's nothing wrong with it, if there was. But we all know the kind of provocations that are being made.
    The people living in Copper-Age Anatolia, were autosomally pretty much the same as they were in the bronze-age according to the Willerslev et al graphic. These were those blue-eyed migrants that went to settle down in the Levant. :

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-an...rkey-iran.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The people living in Copper-Age Anatolia, were autosomally pretty much the same as they were in the bronze-age according to the Willerslev et al graphic. These were those blue-eyed migrants that went to settle down in the Levant. :

    https://www.livescience.com/63396-an...rkey-iran.html
    Good get. Thanks, Jovialis.

    Was this posted in the thread about this topic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Good get. Thanks, Jovialis.

    Was this posted in the thread about this topic?
    Just made note of it now:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post572987

    Too bad the paper is behind a paywall, but at least the graphic is illuminating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Just made note of it now:

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post572987

    Too bad the paper is behind a paywall, but at least the graphic is illuminating.
    Perhaps it should be posted here too, if it wasn't already:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-in-the-Levant

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Perhaps it should be posted here too, if it wasn't already:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...-in-the-Levant
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post572993

    I've posted it there too as well, as I didn't see it mentioned yet.

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