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Thread: The Arrival of Steppe & Iranian Related Ancestry in Islands of West Mediterranean

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    Isn't that what always happens in models with temporally disparate sources - a bias towards the younger samples if they have related ancestries? LN Morocco has Spanish Chalcolithic admixture so of course it would be preferred over ANF/Zagros.

    Sicilians should derive most of their ancestry from Chalcolithic Iberian + Aegean or Balkan BA, the latter having steppe admixture.
    Tomorrow I'll try to find a good model somewhere and see how much of that Moroccan LN sample is Chalcolithic Iberian. It's a bit confusing I must say to use it and not delineate the components for the readers. Or perhaps it's in the paper and I just missed it. There must be a sample elsewhere in another paper as well.

    I take back my suggestion that perhaps they should have used the Ibiza Phoenician just to see what it would show. It's apparently not a very good sample. Now that I know that, the strange place it lands on the PCA makes more sense.
    Last edited by Angela; 22-03-19 at 06:16.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Tomorrow I'll try to find a good model somewhere and see how much of that Moroccan LN sample is Chalcolithic Iberian. It's a bit confusing I must say to use it and not delineate the components for the readers. Or perhaps it's in the paper and I just missed it. There must be a sample elsewhere in another paper as well.

    I take back my suggestion that perhaps they should have used the Ibiza Phoenician just to see what it would show. It's apparently not a very good sample. Now that I know that, the strange place in lands on the PCA makes more sense.
    We discussed the sample in question in this thread about the Rosa Fregel paper.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l+North+Africa

    I don't know why I so completely forgot it.

    Anyway, at least half of it is EEF (or Anatolian Neolithic like) according to the author (by way of Iberia), so the strictly speaking "North African" or IAM we're talking about would be about 21.5% ?, and IAM is highly Levant Neolithic like.

    So there, perhaps, is one explanation for the Levant like ancestry in Sicilians which so exercises the interest of some of our colleagues, an ancestry which I believe they have proposed came as a stream specifically from the Levant into Sicily and perhaps Southern Italy in the period of the Empire, and perhaps also in Late Antiquity, a migration for which I confess I could find no basis in the history of either place.

    According to this paper on the Mediterranean Islands, the "northern West Asian" or Caucasus ancestry, whatever you wish to call it, has plausibly been in Sicily since the Bronze Age.

    This is starting to make more sense.

    However, I still really want to see an analysis of the samples from the period AFTER the arrival of the Greek migrations of the first millenium BC, and using a contemporary North African "Saracen" sample to model the percentage of change. They may or may not have been very much like the IAM samples.

    Well, we're getting somewhere finally, but always need more...ancient samples. :)

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    We discussed the sample in question in this thread about the Rosa Fregel paper.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l+North+Africa

    I don't know why I so completely forgot it.

    Anyway, at least half of it is EEF (or Anatolian Neolithic like) according to the author (by way of Iberia), so the strictly speaking "North African" or IAM we're talking about would be about 21.5% ?, and IAM is highly Levant Neolithic like.

    So there, perhaps, is one explanation for the Levant like ancestry in Sicilians which so exercises the interest of some of our colleagues, an ancestry which I believe they have proposed came as a stream specifically from the Levant into Sicily and perhaps Southern Italy in the period of the Empire, and perhaps also in Late Antiquity, a migration for which I confess I could find no basis in the history of either place.

    According to this paper on the Mediterranean Islands, the "northern West Asian" or Caucasus ancestry, whatever you wish to call it, has plausibly been in Sicily since the Bronze Age.

    This is starting to make more sense.

    However, I still really want to see an analysis of the samples from the period AFTER the arrival of the Greek migrations of the first millenium BC, and using a contemporary North African "Saracen" sample to model the percentage of change. They may or may not have been very much like the IAM samples.

    Well, we're getting somewhere finally, but always need more...ancient samples. :)
    Given that we have early Medieval samples from Iberia that are half "North African" I wonder how hard it would be to create a "virtual" Early Medieval Saracen and play around with that in admixture. I know Dienekes used to do things like that. Gosh, I miss his input.

    I'm also interested to see where the Haak/Krause group differ in their interpretations.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    The three late antiquity samples are plotting next to Mycenaeans but closer to the Caucasus groups, and I think I saw this same sort of plotting in the Iron Age Greek from the Iberian paper. It may be possible the classical Greeks had more (but slightly more) Caucasus in them in comparison to Mycenaeans...or maybe some Mycenaeans had more of this Caucasus like ancestry than others and their gene pool hasn't gotten anything extra even during the classical period
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    I10554 Nuragic sample may had some steppe admixture 8.5 +- 3.3. but in general it seems to be absent at that time..did all the Beakers from Sardinia left for Sicily ?

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    As davef noted 3 of the LA samples are nestled between Myceneans and the Central Anatolians who were likely responsible for the spread of bronze technology in West Eurasia. Perhaps in the Central Mediterranean the bearers of bronze technology encountered fewer natives.

    The most interesting find to me are the LBA Sicilians from Trapani whom I would consider to be speakers of Indo-European. They have very little if any Caucasus admixture, and no steppe admixture. They cannot be Neolithic holdovers either since they carry Bronze Age TMRCA G2a-Z1903, one of them with a subclade specific to present day Scandinavia.

    I'm pretty sure these are Balkaners. Ultimately from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, perhaps by way of Baden-Boleraz.

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    Brachycephal invasion of Anatolia and expansion of Iranian related ancestry to Europe seem sequential?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cpluskx View Post
    Brachycephal invasion of Anatolia and expansion of Iranian related ancestry to Europe seem sequential?
    Seems like it, lots of Iranian and minor Levantine admixture arriving in Anatolia in the CA/BA.

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    I would like to see samples from Puglia. Especially since that's where the highest percentage Anatolian_BA for Italy was suggested to be in Ravenae et al.

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    Isn't it also odd that their supposedly best model for the Ibiza Phoenician is Anatolia_Neolithic + Morocco_LN? Maybe they just lack more proximate sources, and therefore a third componente is hidden in those other two? I find it unlikely that a Levantine Phoenician would lack Levant_Neolithic and Iranian_Chalcolithic ancestry.

    The observation that there may be an unknown Iberia_Chalcolithic and Nuragic Sardinia connection is interesting, because some linguists have speculated that the Nuragic language might've been related to Iberian and/or Basque (not mainstream hypothesis, of course, the evidence is too scant, mostly based on toponyms). That might hark back to the EEF colonization, but by the IA the linguistic differentiation should be very profound, so what if the connection was actually much more recent? Just a curious and not totally off base speculation.

    ***

    If the steppe ancestry arrived in the Balearic islands roughly at the same time it arrived in Iberia from Central Europe and looks most similar to the steppe-admixed Iberian BB, but their material culture is not BB, then it could again strengthen the idea that BB was a cultural phenomenon, a bit like modern pop Western culture (okay, not the best example, but you get it), which results in some similar aesthetics and material products produced by completely different populations and cultures. Some of the steppe+EEF people in Central Europe (or maybe also France?) would've picked up that "brand-new cultural trend" and made it their own, whereas others would be more conservative and isolated and maintained their original ways.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Isn't it also odd that their supposedly best model for the Ibiza Phoenician is Anatolia_Neolithic + Morocco_LN? Maybe they just lack more proximate sources, and therefore a third componente is hidden in those other two? I find it unlikely that a Levantine Phoenician would lack Levant_Neolithic and Iranian_Chalcolithic ancestry.

    The observation that there may be an unknown Iberia_Chalcolithic and Nuragic Sardinia connection is interesting, because some linguists have speculated that the Nuragic language might've been related to Iberian and/or Basque (not mainstream hypothesis, of course, the evidence is too scant, mostly based on toponyms). That might hark back to the EEF colonization, but by the IA the linguistic differentiation should be very profound, so what if the connection was actually much more recent? Just a curious and not totally off base speculation.

    ***

    If the steppe ancestry arrived in the Balearic islands roughly at the same time it arrived in Iberia from Central Europe and looks most similar to the steppe-admixed Iberian BB, but their material culture is not BB, then it could again strengthen the idea that BB was a cultural phenomenon, a bit like modern pop Western culture (okay, not the best example, but you get it), which results in some similar aesthetics and material products produced by completely different populations and cultures. Some of the steppe+EEF people in Central Europe (or maybe also France?) would've picked up that "brand-new cultural trend" and made it their own, whereas others would be more conservative and isolated and maintained their original ways.
    Plus, their Ibiza Phoenician plots right on top of Mycenaeans. Did they have a lot of Morocco LN too?

    I'm really not understanding this. Going by the PCA plot the sample is Greek, isn't it?

    [IMG][/IMG]

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Look at the PCA (especially of the other paper), the Morocco_LN shift does not make too much sense for the shift to present-day Sardinia. It's also really low quality individuals (<250k SNPs covered), so don't take fits with it too seriously - in general the qpAdm in this paper is very wonky. If you look at results, every SE > about 5% should set off an alarm that the data is weak.

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    wow I like the PCA in the other paper so much better.

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, their Ibiza Phoenician plots right on top of Mycenaeans. Did they have a lot of Morocco LN too?

    I'm really not understanding this. Going by the PCA plot the sample is Greek, isn't it?

    [IMG][/IMG]
    So are the Sardinian Late Antiquity samples. Mycenaean, I mean.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, their Ibiza Phoenician plots right on top of Mycenaeans. Did they have a lot of Morocco LN too?

    I'm really not understanding this. Going by the PCA plot the sample is Greek, isn't it?

    [IMG][/IMG]
    That's really bizarre... I mean, did Morocco_LN completely lack the indigenous North African componente that was found already in Iberomaurusian (Upper Paleolithic) and is still found in reasonable proportions even today in the Maghreb? Where was it hiding in the Neolithic then? I would expect a lot of Maghrebi ancestry to pull the sample quite a bit away from the Aegean/East Mediterranean populations, let alone Mycenaeans. What is Morocco_LN made of? Is it full of CHG/Iranian and EEF (with WHG included) like the Mycenaeans? What about the minor but non-negligible steppe ancestry pulling Mycenaeans a bit northward toward BA Europe?

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    The Moroccan LN in Sicilians must have a lot of Anatolian Neolithic, why else would they plot near Mycenaeans?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    I posted this in the thread discussing the Marcus paper specifically on Sardinia, but I thought I'd paste in a copy here too.

    I agree that Fernandes covers more "ground", so to speak, so it isn't going to be as detailed about Sardinian genetic history as this paper, but I do think that they made some errors of judgment. As you have pointed out, there is no archaeological context for those four Late Antiquity samples. They land on Mycenaeans fwiw. I don't know how many snps they have either.

    In terms of Sardinian samples I also think that Fernandes made an error in only using the HGDP samples for the "Ogliastra" group. Those are the samples that Cavalli-Sforza chose and they are not all from Ogliastra, although many of them are. The Marcus paper we are discussing here used many, many modern Sardinian samples, and grouped together a group specifically from Ogliastra.

    Although different analyses showed slightly different things, this is their conclusion: "Together, these results319 suggest high levels of drift specific to Ogliastra (likely also driving the first two PCs of present-day320 Sardinian variation), but simultaneously also less admixture than other Sardinian provinces."

    For "Levantine" (as a stand in for Punic admixture) they show, in a three way mix, about 16% for southwestern Sardinia, and less in the modern samples from the rest of the island. I wonder if the settlements in Sardinia remained basically "Levantine", in contrast to those in Spain which had a "Carthaginian" identity, and thus contained some "North African". Certainly the "Saracens" would have been mostly "North African", although I don't know if a Moroccan LN sample is the best one to use to measure it.

    That was always my contention about "Phoenician" admixture on the island, i.e. that it would show up to some degree in the SW and less in other areas, given that the Phoenicians were not "colonizers", like the Greeks. Sardinia has been a land "apart" to some degree, the terrain lends itself to separation of groups, and so I always doubted that there was widespread admixture even in Sardinia itself. Olbia is a prime example, as is indeed the entire Northern sliver, which is more shifted to northern Italy, and speaks a different language from those of the rest of Sardinia.


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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    That's really bizarre... I mean, did Morocco_LN completely lack the indigenous North African componente that was found already in Iberomaurusian (Upper Paleolithic) and is still found in reasonable proportions even today in the Maghreb? Where was it hiding in the Neolithic then? I would expect a lot of Maghrebi ancestry to pull the sample quite a bit away from the Aegean/East Mediterranean populations, let alone Mycenaeans. What is Morocco_LN made of? Is it full of CHG/Iranian and EEF (with WHG included) like the Mycenaeans? What about the minor but non-negligible steppe ancestry pulling Mycenaeans a bit northward toward BA Europe?
    I went back to the original paper discussing these samples, Rosa Fregel et al. It is discussed here, and there's a link to the original paper as well.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ht=Rosa+Fregel

    We have to keep in mind that Fernandes is using the samples labeled KEB to measure "North African" ancestry.

    "IAM individuals are similar to North African Later Stone Age samples from the Taforalt site in Morocco, dated ∼15,000 y ago (Fig. 2 and SI Appendix,Supplementary Note 6). When projected, IAM samples are halfway between Taforalt and modern North Africans, in the Levantine corner of the PCA space (Fig. 2).
    Southern Iberian Neolithic individuals from TOR cluster withSardinians and with other Anatolian and European Neolithicsamples. Moreover, KEB samples are placed halfway between the IAM and Anatolian/European farmer clusters, in close proximity to Levant aDNA samples and also to Guanche samples."

    "IAM is composed of the North African component observed in Mozabites. KEB is placed in an intermediate position, with ∼50% each of European Early Neolithic and North African ancestries. It is worth
    mentioning that, compared with current North African samples, IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in the MEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times."

    So, as far as North Africa is concerned, there seems to be a back migration from the Near East into North Africa, then large amounts of Levant farmer in the Neolithic. There's another pulse from there in the Muslim era, followed by large amounts of SSA at some point, so much so that modern North Africans can be up to 25-30% SSA depending on the era. (There are some who have much less.)

    These KEB samples are modeled as about half IAM and half Anatolian farmer.

    Now, according to the paper the area inhabited by these people was Morocco and the signal gets weaker as you go east in North Africa, i.e. toward Egypt.

    My hesitancy about this is based on the fact that we have no way of knowing how similar the North Africans of the Iron Age or, later, the early Medieval period, were to these KEB people, especially when, in the case of Italy and the Muslim invasion, you're talking about Tunisia. Now, were they KEB like, or modern Amazegh like, or were they modern Mozabite like, or somewhere in between all of those.

    As I stated somewhere above, this may also explain the "Levantine" signal in Sicily which has so enthralled some internet pop gen people. It makes a lot more sense than some phantom migration of "Byzantines" from the Levant, of which there is no historical record, just as the high levels of Iran Neolithic in the Bronze Age also negate the need to "blame" this on high levels of migration from this same "Byzantine" migration.

    And no, not "everyone" failed to see that migration from the Balkans, in particular Greece, could have, and probably did bring quite a bit of "Iran Neolithic" to Sicily in the Bronze Age. I certainly saw it, and posted about it often. In fact, I proposed even late Neolithic/Bronze Age, and there's some evidence it was already in Sicily in the early Bronze, although it increased over time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, their Ibiza Phoenician plots right on top of Mycenaeans. Did they have a lot of Morocco LN too?

    I'm really not understanding this. Going by the PCA plot the sample is Greek, isn't it?

    [IMG][/IMG]
    The Phoenician is only 25 percent Anatolian neo, the rest is morocco_ln. I have no idea how he wound up there

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    this seems to point Sea Peoples...

    259 An exception is individual I10553 (1226-1056 calBCE) who carried Y-haplogroup J2b2a (Online Table
    260 1), previously observed in a Croatian Middle Bronze Age individual bearing Steppe ancestry44,
    261 suggesting the possibility of genetic input from groups that arrived from the east after the spread
    262 of first farmers. This is consistent with the evidence of material culture exchange between
    263 Sardinians and mainland Mediterranean groups15, although genome-wide analyses find no significant
    264 evidence of Steppe ancestry so the quantitative demographic impact was minimal. qpAdm modeling
    265 of the ancestry of the Sardinia_Nuragic_BA10365 outlier with respect to sources potentially more
    266 closely related in space and time does infer some ancestry in this individual from an eastern source
    267 (either carrying Steppe ancestry or Iranian-related ancestry) that we do not detect by modeling
    268 with sources more distant in space and time, consistent with the hypothesis of eastern influence
    four J2b2a1 appear around 1200-1000 BC in Sardinia also...

    We detect definitive evidence of Iranian-related ancestry in an Iron Age Sardinian I10366 (391-209
    271 calBCE) with an estimate of 11.9 ± 3.7.% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic related ancestry, while
    272 rejecting the model with only Anatolian_Neolithic and WHG at p=0.0066 (Supplementary Table 9).
    273 The only model that we can fit for this individual using a pair of populations that are closer in time
    274 is as a mixture of Iberia_Chalcolithic (11.9 ± 3.2%) and Mycenaean (88.1 ± 3.2%) (p=0.067). This
    275 model fits even when including Nuragic Sardinians in the outgroups of the qpAdm analysis, which is
    276 consistent with the jhypothesis that this individual had little if any ancestry from earlier Sardinians.
    1000 years after successive Balkan migrations would have left the island so changed
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

    "The ultimate homeland of the group [PIE] that also spread Anatolian languages is less clear." D. Reich

  22. #47
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    Instead, this would favour a migration from SE Spain (Motillas are like Nuraghi, Norax legend):

    Specifically, we find that f4(Mbuti.DG, X; Formentera_MBA, Menorca_LBA) is
    223 positive when X=Iberia_Chalcolithic (Z=2.6) or X=Sardinia_Nuragic_BA (Z=2.7). While it is tempting
    224 to interpret the latter statistic as suggesting a genetic link between peoples of the Talaiotic culture
    225 of the Balearic islands and the Nuragic culture of Sardinia, the attraction to Iberia_Chalcolithic is
    226 just as strong, and the mitochondrial haplogroup [email protected] in Menorca_LBA is not
    227 observed in Sardinia_Nuragic_BA but is observed in multiple Iberia_Chalcolithic individuals. A
    228 possible explanation is that both the ancestors of Nuragic Sardinians and the ancestors of Talaiotic
    229 people from the Balearic Islands received gene flow from an unsampled Iberian Chalcolithic-related
    230 group (perhaps a mainland group affiliated to both) that did not contribute to Formentera_MBA.

  23. #48
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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    some hocus-pocus with R1b beakers:

    The fact that that none of the models for Sicily_EBA individuals analyzed by themselves
    602 requires Yamnaya_Samara ancestry in order to fit, despite the fact that the analysis of the pool of
    603 all samples in Supplementary Table 9 requires Yamnaya_Samara,is also notable. It highlights the
    604 statistical power that comes from pooling samples.

  24. #49
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    Nice to see the Sea Peoples hypothesis is getting some attention, I didn't associate it with J2b but an Aegean origin and settlement in the Central Mediterranean was obvious to me (ostensibly at least). Bring on the Etruscans!

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    also K4 displays some Nuraghe individuals with blue (for Iran Neo ancestry)

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