Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 245

Thread: The Arrival of Steppe & Iranian Related Ancestry in Islands of West Mediterranean

  1. #51
    Banned
    Join Date
    15-07-18
    Posts
    630


    Country: UK - England



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When people are willy nilly throwing populations into the various programs, especially Levant Neolithic or something like that, the algorithm may find "Levant" in a sample, when it's only there in a very ancient sense.
    This is highly unlikely, as there will be other more closely-related less-ancient populations that the algorithm will pick up mixed into better fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, all of this is PROVISIONAL. Nothing should be concluded in such dogmatic terms when the North African sample used was from the Neolithic and is half Spanish farmer (with some WHG) and has Anatolian Neolithic from the "Levantine" ancestry too. There's too much overlap. That's why earlier papers saw an EEF signal heading out of the Levant with farmers.

    Just look, for example, what happens when you take a "Punic" (i.e. Levantine of a certain era plus North African of a certain era) and put in 20% more Anatolian Neolithic. You get a Mycenaean. So, if you want to apply the same logic, the Myceaneans would have a very large proportion of Levantine ancestry.
    If, as you suggested, you take Punic of the relevant era, mixed with North African and with Anatolian Neolithic, it comes out as nothing like Mycaenean. The best fit for Mycaenean is Neolithic Greek, mixed with some Southern Steppe Yamnayan, some CA/EBA Armenian and some CA/EBA Balkan; and I don't see any particular reason to question this best fit as unlikely.

    I agree that such results are always provisional. The data doesn't prove anything - it only provides most likely explanations, given the limited data that we have available.

  2. #52
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    This is highly unlikely, as there will be other more closely-related less-ancient populations that the algorithm will pick up mixed into better fits.



    If, as you suggested, you take Punic of the relevant era, mixed with North African and with Anatolian Neolithic, it comes out as nothing like Mycaenean. The best fit for Mycaenean is Neolithic Greek, mixed with some Southern Steppe Yamnayan, some CA/EBA Armenian and some CA/EBA Balkan; and I don't see any particular reason to question this best fit as unlikely.

    I agree that such results are always provisional. The data doesn't prove anything - it only provides most likely explanations, given the limited data that we have available.
    It all depends on which populations are chosen. Among the amateur ones I see being passed around I can tell that most of them are just plain WRONG, mixing populations from different eras etc, and, by the way, the goodness of fit is often not provided. Many of them are also clearly OVERFIT.

    Like I said: linear thinking. The "Punic" individual lands right on top of Mycenaeans in a PCA, which is one measure of genetic relatedness, and one which is often used to draw conclusions about Sicilians. None of these tools can be interpreted in isolation from one another. Each has its pluses or minuses.

    Forget it. Believe what you want. Obviously, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #53
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,028

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    4 members found this post helpful.


    In this admixture chart on line 550, it shows that the Ibiza_Phoenician sample's autosomal components looks very close to that of the Mycenaean. Let us see how things pan out in the final peer-reviewed version of the paper.

    Here's another aspect of the paper I found to be intriguing:



    The Reich paper states that it is plausible that the Caucasus-related ancestry reported in Ravenae et al is likely to have been there since the early or middle Bronze-Age. Thus it stands to reason that this makes Southern Italian mainlanders; especially SItaly3 (see figure G, below) are indeed different from Sicilians. But who knows how Reich would model them. This is just my observations and speculation. At any rate, here are examples of the difference, below. If the plausibility is indeed correct, than the mainland south owes a lot of it's ancestry to the early to middle bronze age. While Sicily took a different route to get where it is today (Perhaps with Messina being an exception).



    Furthermore, I noticed that Anatolian_BA is also very similar to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples; More than it is to Levant_BA, as observed in the ADMIXTURE analysis below. One of the samples even overlaps with SItaly1




  4. #54
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,028

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    In this admixture chart on line 550, it shows that the Ibiza_Phoenician sample's autosomal components looks very close to that of the Mycenaean. Let us see how things pan out in the final peer-reviewed version of the paper.

    Here's another aspect of the paper I found to be intriguing:



    The Reich paper states that it is plausible that the Caucasus-related ancestry reported in Ravenae et al is likely to have been there since the early or middle Bronze-Age. Thus it stands to reason that this makes Southern Italian mainlanders; especially SItaly3 (see figure G, below) are indeed different from Sicilians. But who knows how Reich would model them. This is just my observations and speculation. At any rate, here are examples of the difference, below. If the plausibility is indeed correct, than the mainland south owes a lot of it's ancestry to the early to middle bronze age. While Sicily took a different route to get where it is today (Perhaps with Messina being an exception).



    Furthermore, I noticed that Anatolian_BA is also very similar to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples; More than it is to Levant_BA, as observed in the ADMIXTURE analysis below. One of the samples even overlaps with SItaly1



    I noticed that SItaly3 gets a small amount of SBA, but a relatively large amount of WHG. Now these results seem to make more sense to me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    My results are in:

    Ancient Farmers: 77.0%
    • Western European Farmers: 31.1%
    • Levant: 2.4%
    • Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 6.3%
    • Eastern European Farmers: 37.1%


    Steppe Cultures: 16.8%
    • Karasuk-E Scythian 8.7%
    • Andronovo-Srubanaya: 8.1%


    Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 6.2%

  5. #55
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,499

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I noticed that SItaly3 gets a small amount of SBA, but a relatively large amount of WHG. Now these results seem to make more sense to me:
    Ancestry a part, i still dont really understand the concept of Baltic and Ukraine Neolithic without admixture, what were their cultural characteristics for being considered Neolithic groups but Pottery?

    And what does Eastern European Farmers means in terms of ancestral component, only EHG? and Steppe Cultures is EHG+CHG?

  6. #56
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Ancestry a part, i still dont really understand the concept of Baltic and Ukraine Neolithic without admixture, what were their cultural characteristics for being considered Neolithic groups but Pottery?

    And what does Eastern European Farmers means in terms of ancestral component, only EHG? and Steppe Cultures is EHG+CHG?
    Eastern European farmers are EEF. There's no EHG involved. WHG if anything.

  7. #57
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,499

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Eastern European farmers are EEF. There's no EHG involved. WHG if anything.
    What's the difference between WEEF and EEEF in his results then?

  8. #58
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What's the difference between WEEF and EEEF in his results then?
    Probably a lot of drift, but also the minor admixture might have been different as well as at different percentages. We now know, for example, that there was bit more El Miron in the Iberian farmers, most KO1 in the eastern ones.

  9. #59
    Banned
    Join Date
    19-10-17
    Posts
    521

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2-M205

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Bump, do we know all Y haplogroups of males, there is four J haplogroups, one is confirmed J2b-L283, another one says J2a, what about other two? Also three males have mtDNA inserted instead of Ydna.

    Does anyone knows more about this?


    M G2a2b2b1a1
    M G2a2b2b1a1
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    F n/a (female)
    M H
    M U5a2b3
    M U5a2a1
    M U5a2a1
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M C1a2
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M J
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M J
    M J2a1
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    M J
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    F n/a (female)
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2a1
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2 (xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2a1
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2 (xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2 (xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
    F n/a (female)
    M G2a2b2a1a1c1a
    M G2a2b2a1a1c1a2
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M G2a2b2a1a1c1a

  10. #60
    Dominique_NUit
    Join Date
    02-05-17
    Posts
    126

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a2b--PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post

    The most interesting find to me are the LBA Sicilians from Trapani whom I would consider to be speakers of Indo-European. They have very little if any Caucasus admixture, and no steppe admixture. They cannot be Neolithic holdovers either since they carry Bronze Age TMRCA G2a-Z1903, one of them with a subclade specific to present day Scandinavia.

    I'm pretty sure these are Balkaners. Ultimately from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, perhaps by way of Baden-Boleraz.
    I am not sure if I understand Markod correctly, but this sounds like G2a-Z1903 travelled to Sicily independently of the R1b steppe-derived populations. Or if the two groups did move in tandem, up the Danube to Baden and then down through Italy (or west to Spain and then to Sicily), they did so without mixing or inter-marrying?

    If Markod is still reading this thread, perhaps he could elaborate.

  11. #61
    Dominique_NUit
    Join Date
    02-05-17
    Posts
    126

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a2b--PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Country: USA - New York



    This is from the Ancient Iberia thread, but relevant to my question

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A quick look at the haplogroups by period reveals that:

    New lineages that appear during the Chalcolithic include:

    - I2a1a-M26 and I2a1b-M423. Until the MLN, the I2 individuals all belonged to I2a2 - mostly the now rare Western European L1228 clade, but also to Z161.

    - G2a-Z1903 (downstream of L30, L140 and CTS342, TMRCA 4500 ybp, found all over Europe) while earlier Neolithic G2a belonged mostly to G2a-PF3148 (like Ötzi), a rarer clade today found notably in Sardinia and the Middle East.

    So there seems to have been a significant population replacement between the Middle-Late Neolithic and the Chalcolithic. The newcomers were also descended from the European G2a-I2a mixed population, but it looks like a male elite, probably originating from the Balkans, started replacing other Neolithic lineages in Iberia, and based on the modern distribution of I2-M26, I2-M423 and G2a-Z1903, across most of central and western Europe.

    In this study, these new lineages only show up in southern Iberia, while R1b-L23 (with some L51 and P312) makes its appearance only in central and northwest Iberia from circa 2100 BCE.

  12. #62
    Dominique_NUit
    Join Date
    02-05-17
    Posts
    126

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a2b--PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I'm pretty sure these are Balkaners. Ultimately from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, perhaps by way of Baden-Boleraz.
    From page 208 of Game of Clans, by Carlos Quiles ---> "Three Baden samples (ca. 3600-2850 BC) show no contribution of Steppe ancestry (Lipson et al 2017), with one hg. G2a2b2a1a1c1a-Z1903 (formed ca. 6000 BC, TMRCA ca. 2400 BC), which . . . supports the cultural rather than demic diffusion of concepts related to the Yamna culture during the 'Transformation of Europe'"

    https://indo-european.info/game-clans-clash-chiefs.pdf

  13. #63
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    From page 208 of Game of Clans, by Carlos Quiles ---> "Three Baden samples (ca. 3600-2850 BC) show no contribution of Steppe ancestry (Lipson et al 2017), with one hg. G2a2b2a1a1c1a-Z1903 (formed ca. 6000 BC, TMRCA ca. 2400 BC), which . . . supports the cultural rather than demic diffusion of concepts related to the Yamna culture during the 'Transformation of Europe'"

    https://indo-european.info/game-clans-clash-chiefs.pdf
    I personally wouldn't quote him for interpretations, but those samples also falsify Gimbutas, who saw Baden as a "steppe" culture genetically.

    I'm also pretty sure the cultural influence went both ways, with many innovations flowing from "Old Europe" to the steppe. There's been quite a few papers in the last few years showing just that.

  14. #64
    Regular Member Joey37's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
    Location
    Coventry, Rhode Island
    Posts
    457

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1a-YP445
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c2b

    Ethnic group
    Celto-Germanic
    Country: USA - Rhode Island



    Yes, DO NOT quote Quiles, his work is from my perspective colored by an ideological axe to grind with Eastern Europeans; he wishes to credit the Indo-Europeanization of Europe to R1b tribes now in Western Europe-their descendants have mainly been shorn of national and in general tend to white guilt, self-hating, and 'rootless cosmopolitanism' rather than to Eastern Europeans, who still have a sense of pride in Western civilization and who they are and their ancestors, the R1a tribes (in the interest of full disclosure I am R1a, but my opposition is out of my anti-authoritarian right Anglo-American ideological tradition; while I distrust racists I disdain neoliberal statists even more, and even more the insinuation that Eastern Europeans are, then as now, primitives in need of civilizing by the elites of western Europe)

  15. #65
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,028

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Yes, DO NOT quote Quiles, his work is from my perspective colored by an ideological axe to grind with Eastern Europeans; he wishes to credit the Indo-Europeanization of Europe to R1b tribes now in Western Europe-their descendants have mainly been shorn of national and in general tend to white guilt, self-hating, and 'rootless cosmopolitanism' rather than to Eastern Europeans, who still have a sense of pride in Western civilization and who they are and their ancestors, the R1a tribes (in the interest of full disclosure I am R1a, but my opposition is out of my anti-authoritarian right Anglo-American ideological tradition; while I distrust racists I disdain neoliberal statists even more, and even more the insinuation that Eastern Europeans are, then as now, primitives in need of civilizing by the elites of western Europe)
    Western Civilization was created by the Greeks and Romans, not the Indo-Europeans.

  16. #66
    Dominique_NUit
    Join Date
    02-05-17
    Posts
    126

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a2b--PF6863
    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV16

    Country: USA - New York



    I cannot comment on whether Quiles has an illicit agenda. I am simply intrigued that G2a-Z1903 samples from the Chalcolithic and EBA were found to have no Steppe ancestry in three different studies:

    (1) Lipton et al at the Baden site,
    (2) by the authors of the Ancient Iberia paper (with Maciamo's gloss, which I quote upthread #62), and
    (3) by Fernandes et al in the article under discussion here

    I've been skimming through Quiles for the past few hours, and he actually discusses the Fernandes article on page 27 of Game of Chiefs, the second volume of his series.

    Quiles writes of the Fernandes study: "Iranian-related ancestry is found in Sicily by the Middle Bronze Age (ca. 1800-1500 BC), with a consistent shift towards Mycenaeans in the PCA. Specifically, two of the three sampled individuals can only be fit with Iran Neolithic (ca. 15-18%), apart from Northwest Anatolian and WHG-related ancestry, with good fits obtained with Minoans. Of the two reported haplogroups, one from the Aegean-related group is G2a-Z1903 . . . ."

    He continues: "In the Late Bronze Age (ca. 1450-900 BC), a further incursion of Steppe-related ancestry is found (ca. 15%), even though the two reported samples are one G2a-Z1903, and the other G2a-FGC46572."

    Is Quiles' reading of the Fernandes article correct? If so, it seems strange to me that G2a-Z1903 would have travelled through the Aegean (possibly Crete?) en route to Sicily, unless it was quite simply very widely diffused throughout Europe during the Copper Age. Or is it more likely that G2a-Z1903 admixed with Iranian-related elements in Sicily proper?

  17. #67
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I've always been of the opinion that this sub lineage of G2a was widely diffused throughout Europe during the Copper Age and it admixed with "Iranian/CHG" like ancestry in Sicily, ancestry which started arriving a bit later.

    If it hasn't been found in Anatolia I think that is the most likely scenario.

  18. #68
    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-05-17
    Posts
    5,028

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1a1a2b1 (R-F1794)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H6a1b

    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: United States



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Published today, along with Novembre et al. 2020 on Sardinia.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0

  19. #69
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks, Jovialis.

    The abstracts have changed.

    Original:
    A series of studies have documented how Steppe pastoralist-related ancestry reached central Europe by at least 2500 BCE, while Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 BCE. However, the spread of these ancestries into the western Mediterranean where they have contributed to many populations living today remains poorly understood. We generated genome-wide ancient DNA from the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and Sardinia, increasing the number of individuals with reported data from these islands from 3 to 52. We obtained data from the oldest skeleton excavated from the Balearic islands (dating to ~2400 BCE), and show that this individual had substantial Steppe pastoralist-derived ancestry; however, later Balearic individuals had less Steppe heritage reflecting geographic heterogeneity or immigration from groups with more European first farmer-related ancestry. In Sicily, Steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 BCE and likely came at least in part from Spain as it was associated with Iberian-specific Y chromosomes. In Sicily, Iranian-related ancestry also arrived by the Middle Bronze Age, thus revealing that this ancestry type, which was ubiquitous in the Aegean by this time, also spread further west prior to the classical period of Greek expansion. In Sardinia, we find no evidence of either eastern ancestry type in the Nuragic Bronze Age, but show that Iranian-related ancestry arrived by at least ~300 BCE and Steppe ancestry arrived by ~300 CE, joined at that time or later by North African ancestry. These results falsify the view that the people of Sardinia are isolated descendants of Europe's first farmers. Instead, our results show that the island's admixture history since the Bronze Age is as complex as that in many other parts of Europe.

    Steppe-pastoralist-related ancestry reached Central Europe by at least 2500 BC, whereas Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 BC. However, the spread of these ancestries into the western Mediterranean, where they have contributed to many populations that live today, remains poorly understood. Here, we generated genome-wide ancient-DNA data from the Balearic Islands, Sicily and Sardinia, increasing the number of individuals with reported data from 5 to 66. The oldest individual from the Balearic Islands (~2400 BC) carried ancestry from steppe pastoralists that probably derived from west-to-east migration from Iberia, although two later Balearic individuals had less ancestry from steppe pastoralists. In Sicily, steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 BC, in part from Iberia; Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium BC, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean; and there was large-scale population replacement after the Bronze Age. In Sardinia, nearly all ancestry derived from the island’s early farmers until the first millennium BC, with the exception of an outlier from the third millennium BC, who had primarily North African ancestry and who—along with an approximately contemporary Iberian—documents widespread Africa-to-Europe gene flow in the Chalcolithic. Major immigration into Sardinia began in the first millennium BC and, at present, no more than 56–62% of Sardinian ancestry is from its first farmers. This value is lower than previous estimates, highlighting that Sardinia, similar to every other region in Europe, has been a stage for major movement and mixtures of people.

    Anyone know how to get access to the whole paper? The Reich Lab usually provides it. Has anyone checked?


  20. #70
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    887

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Siicly-South
    Country: United States



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Thanks, Jovialis.

    The abstracts have changed.

    Original:
    A series of studies have documented how Steppe pastoralist-related ancestry reached central Europe by at least 2500 BCE, while Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 BCE. However, the spread of these ancestries into the western Mediterranean where they have contributed to many populations living today remains poorly understood. We generated genome-wide ancient DNA from the Balearic Islands, Sicily, and Sardinia, increasing the number of individuals with reported data from these islands from 3 to 52. We obtained data from the oldest skeleton excavated from the Balearic islands (dating to ~2400 BCE), and show that this individual had substantial Steppe pastoralist-derived ancestry; however, later Balearic individuals had less Steppe heritage reflecting geographic heterogeneity or immigration from groups with more European first farmer-related ancestry. In Sicily, Steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 BCE and likely came at least in part from Spain as it was associated with Iberian-specific Y chromosomes. In Sicily, Iranian-related ancestry also arrived by the Middle Bronze Age, thus revealing that this ancestry type, which was ubiquitous in the Aegean by this time, also spread further west prior to the classical period of Greek expansion. In Sardinia, we find no evidence of either eastern ancestry type in the Nuragic Bronze Age, but show that Iranian-related ancestry arrived by at least ~300 BCE and Steppe ancestry arrived by ~300 CE, joined at that time or later by North African ancestry. These results falsify the view that the people of Sardinia are isolated descendants of Europe's first farmers. Instead, our results show that the island's admixture history since the Bronze Age is as complex as that in many other parts of Europe.

    Steppe-pastoralist-related ancestry reached Central Europe by at least 2500 BC, whereas Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 BC. However, the spread of these ancestries into the western Mediterranean, where they have contributed to many populations that live today, remains poorly understood. Here, we generated genome-wide ancient-DNA data from the Balearic Islands, Sicily and Sardinia, increasing the number of individuals with reported data from 5 to 66. The oldest individual from the Balearic Islands (~2400 BC) carried ancestry from steppe pastoralists that probably derived from west-to-east migration from Iberia, although two later Balearic individuals had less ancestry from steppe pastoralists. In Sicily, steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 BC, in part from Iberia; Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium BC, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean; and there was large-scale population replacement after the Bronze Age. In Sardinia, nearly all ancestry derived from the island’s early farmers until the first millennium BC, with the exception of an outlier from the third millennium BC, who had primarily North African ancestry and who—along with an approximately contemporary Iberian—documents widespread Africa-to-Europe gene flow in the Chalcolithic. Major immigration into Sardinia began in the first millennium BC and, at present, no more than 56–62% of Sardinian ancestry is from its first farmers. This value is lower than previous estimates, highlighting that Sardinia, similar to every other region in Europe, has been a stage for major movement and mixtures of people.

    Anyone know how to get access to the whole paper? The Reich Lab usually provides it. Has anyone checked?

    Being someone who has always read on the history of the peoples of Sicily, the statement Steppe Pastoralist ancestry arrived around 2200 BCE and likely came from Spain as it was associated with Iberian Y Chromosomes. Some of the Greek Historians posited the hypothesis that the Sicani, who occupied the center territory of Sicily, were in fact from Iberia. So while not conclusive proof, IMHO, the evidence that is presented in this paper suggest that the Greek Historians from Antiquity may be correct on this specific case regarding the Origins of the Sicani. My time in Segesta last summer and reading the official books, (I purchased one) published by the Segesta Archaeological Park is that the Elymi were a Ligurian population. The Siculi being part of the Oenotrian Italic peoples from the Southern Mainland.

    Edit to post above (which I put in another thread related to this, so consolidating it here with above post). The abstract also indicates Iranian Neolithic ancestry into Sicily, from which I assume it got to Southern Italy, or it concurrently got into Sicily and Southern Italian mainland. These results seem to corroborate Raveane et al 2019 Figure 2 results.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 25-02-20 at 02:13.

  21. #71
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    19,232


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Well, I just spent two plus hours plowing through every word of the Supplement, two hours I'll never get back, and I regret it.

    In my opinion it's a complete jumble. Every group has one or more "outliers" and model after model fails. They show you how they just were at one point flipping populations from left to right and back to try to get something to make sense.

    They also are still insisting they have to use Morocco Late Neolithic to model certain populations, including modern Sardinians and Sicilians. Morocco Late Neolithic cannot be the source population. It's too far removed in time. Using it also may distort the percentages for Anatolian or European farmer in both populations.

    For what it's worth, this is Moroccan Late Neolithic.

    KEB samples belong to haplogroups K1, T2, and X2, which are prominently found in Anatolian and European Neolithic samples (2, 21) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 4). Regarding the paternal lineages, IAM individuals carry Y chromosomes distantly related to the typically North African E-M81 haplogroup, while the Y chromosome from KEB belongs to the T-M184 haplogroup; although scarce and broadly distributed today, this haplogroup has also been observed in European Neolithic individuals (16) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 5). Both mtDNA and Y chromosome lineages (K1, J2, and T2 haplogroups and G-M201 haplogroup, respectively) for samples from TOR (Iberian Early Neolithic) are similar to those observed in Europe during Neolithic times (21).

    As suspected from the mtDNA and Y chromosome data, KEB samples do not cluster with IAM and are placed in an intermediate position between IAM and TOR. We further explored the genetic structure of these samples using the program ADMIXTURE (22) (SI Appendix, Supplementary Note 7). At K = 5, TOR is composed of the component associated with the European Early Neolithic and IAM is composed of the North African component observed in Mozabites. KEB is placed in an intermediate position, with ∼50% each of European Early Neolithic and North African ancestries. It is worth mentioning that, compared with current North African samples, IAM and KEB do not show any sub-Saharan African ancestry in the MEGA-HGDP ADMIXTURE analysis, suggesting that trans-Saharan migrations occurred after Neolithic times. This could be in agreement with the analysis of present-day genome-wide data from Morocco, which estimated a migration of western African origin into Morocco only ∼1,200 y ago (11).
    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/26/6774

  22. #72
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,745

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    The T-M184 is

    Kehf-el-Baroud ( 4950 yBP - Late Neolithic )

    KEB.6 ( 4940 ± 30 yBP ) other: 5565 ± 65 yBP
    Y-DNA: T1a1a-L162 (x T1a1a2b-BY154181, T1a1a1a1-Y4119, T1a1a1a2a1a-BY28257, T1a1a1a2b1a-Y12642, T1a1a1b1a-Y18956)
    mtDNA: K1a4a1
    Genome-Wide Coverage: 0.14X
    Wisc reads: 169,242,780
    Other IDs: Library AEH161 / Museum KEB93.94 d2
    Sample: Teeth
    Autosomal Notes: Iberian origin.
    Files: FASTQ / FASTQ&BAM (galaxy) / BAM (FASTQ=>mapped-BAM)


    https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERS1937417
    Fathers mtdna ... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ... K1a4
    Mum paternal line ... R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side ... I1-Y33791
    Wife paternal line ... R1a-Z282

  23. #73
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    887

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Siicly-South
    Country: United States



    Angela:

    A couple of questions 1) is it just a poorly written paper in terms of clarity? or 2) Methodology and execution not well laid out? 3) or is it what you are suggesting in post 72 poor use of samples to model populations. More specifically If I may ask, respectively, since I am of Sicilian ancestry "Tutti" what should I take from the results, at least considering the Iberian input they suggest into Sicily and the Iranian Neolithic input. I have not read the paper yet and while I may not plow through the Supplemental materials, I do still plan to read the main text of the article.

  24. #74
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    10-05-19
    Posts
    887

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2-M223
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2A3

    Ethnic group
    Italian-Siicly-South
    Country: United States



    Jovialis: I don't want to misrepresent your statements in Post 55 but from my reading of Raveane et al 2019 Figure 2, there is Caucus-Hunter Gather (CHG) and Iran Neolithic (IN) is present in SItaly1, SItaly2, SItaly3 and Sicily1 and Sicily2, as well as AN, WHG and some small EHG, Sicily having some NA (Pink) which has been estimated at 4-5% (and appears to be that in the Raveane paper). So what different migrations could have resulted in Southern Italy and Sicily all having AN, WHG, CHG, IN, along with some EHG but taking different routes? etc.

  25. #75
    Regular Member kingjohn's Avatar
    Join Date
    05-09-16
    Posts
    965

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-BY96055
    MtDNA haplogroup
    from plovdiv h3ap

    Country: Uruguay



    I gone through the suplemental table chl sardinia
    Outlier i15940 have some north african ancestery
    His ydna e1b1b1a-m78 and his mtdna m1
    So this evidence to case of north african ancestery which is damn old in sardinia.....
    Another individual I12221 from early mediveal sardinia 890-992 Ad is e1b1b1b2-z830/m123 nice

    P.S
    They add those e1b1b samples in there latest publication by nature not in the link john posted in the first page in this thread....
    Last edited by kingjohn; 25-02-20 at 13:27.

Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •