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Thread: The Arrival of Steppe & Iranian Related Ancestry in Islands of West Mediterranean

  1. #51
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    3 out of 4 members found this post helpful.
    Astonishingly, some people in this "hobby", particularly on other sites, seem to lack a real understanding of how these programs work. Not for the first time, something I have proposed has been completely misused because some people can only think linearly, although some neurotic agendas also, I think, come into play.

    I proposed, somewhere above, that PERHAPS at least some, if not most, of the "Levantine" which people find in Sicilians might not actually be Levantine. Some of it might be North African since North Africans have always had a lot of ANCIENT "Levantine" ancestry.

    This doesn't mean a LOT of actual LEVANTINE people entered, say, Sicily, with the Saracens. All the documentation we have indicates most of the Saracens or Moors or whatever you want to call them, were from North Africa, not the Levant or Arabia. Since the invasion wasn't long after the arrival of Islam, I'm not sure there was even much Arabian ancestry from the tribes which arrived around that time and whose ancestry would indeed be mixed in modern North Africans with that of the "Berbers".

    When people are willy nilly throwing populations into the various programs, especially Levant Neolithic or something like that, the algorithm may find "Levant" in a sample, when it's only there in a very ancient sense.

    It would be like looking at an Italian admixed person and saying there's a lot of Anatolian Neolithic and some Iranian related ancestry and some Beaker. Yeah, ok, but what does that tell you about the historical processes? Isn't that what we're supposed to be studying?

    I want to understand the history of my country. I want to know how much change there was at certain pivotal moments of our history. I'm not trying to make some "racial" or ethnic point about my country or anyone elses. Obviously, some people are engaged in precisely that.

    Plus, all of this is PROVISIONAL. Nothing should be concluded in such dogmatic terms when the North African sample used was from the Neolithic and is half Spanish farmer (with some WHG) and has Anatolian Neolithic from the "Levantine" ancestry too. There's too much overlap. That's why earlier papers saw an EEF signal heading out of the Levant with farmers.

    Just look, for example, what happens when you take a "Punic" (i.e. Levantine of a certain era plus North African of a certain era) and put in 20% more Anatolian Neolithic. You get a Mycenaean. So, if you want to apply the same logic, the Myceaneans would have a very large proportion of Levantine ancestry.


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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When people are willy nilly throwing populations into the various programs, especially Levant Neolithic or something like that, the algorithm may find "Levant" in a sample, when it's only there in a very ancient sense.
    This is highly unlikely, as there will be other more closely-related less-ancient populations that the algorithm will pick up mixed into better fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Plus, all of this is PROVISIONAL. Nothing should be concluded in such dogmatic terms when the North African sample used was from the Neolithic and is half Spanish farmer (with some WHG) and has Anatolian Neolithic from the "Levantine" ancestry too. There's too much overlap. That's why earlier papers saw an EEF signal heading out of the Levant with farmers.

    Just look, for example, what happens when you take a "Punic" (i.e. Levantine of a certain era plus North African of a certain era) and put in 20% more Anatolian Neolithic. You get a Mycenaean. So, if you want to apply the same logic, the Myceaneans would have a very large proportion of Levantine ancestry.
    If, as you suggested, you take Punic of the relevant era, mixed with North African and with Anatolian Neolithic, it comes out as nothing like Mycaenean. The best fit for Mycaenean is Neolithic Greek, mixed with some Southern Steppe Yamnayan, some CA/EBA Armenian and some CA/EBA Balkan; and I don't see any particular reason to question this best fit as unlikely.

    I agree that such results are always provisional. The data doesn't prove anything - it only provides most likely explanations, given the limited data that we have available.

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    2 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    This is highly unlikely, as there will be other more closely-related less-ancient populations that the algorithm will pick up mixed into better fits.



    If, as you suggested, you take Punic of the relevant era, mixed with North African and with Anatolian Neolithic, it comes out as nothing like Mycaenean. The best fit for Mycaenean is Neolithic Greek, mixed with some Southern Steppe Yamnayan, some CA/EBA Armenian and some CA/EBA Balkan; and I don't see any particular reason to question this best fit as unlikely.

    I agree that such results are always provisional. The data doesn't prove anything - it only provides most likely explanations, given the limited data that we have available.
    It all depends on which populations are chosen. Among the amateur ones I see being passed around I can tell that most of them are just plain WRONG, mixing populations from different eras etc, and, by the way, the goodness of fit is often not provided. Many of them are also clearly OVERFIT.

    Like I said: linear thinking. The "Punic" individual lands right on top of Mycenaeans in a PCA, which is one measure of genetic relatedness, and one which is often used to draw conclusions about Sicilians. None of these tools can be interpreted in isolation from one another. Each has its pluses or minuses.

    Forget it. Believe what you want. Obviously, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

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    4 out of 4 members found this post helpful.


    In this admixture chart on line 550, it shows that the Ibiza_Phoenician sample's autosomal components looks very close to that of the Mycenaean. Let us see how things pan out in the final peer-reviewed version of the paper.

    Here's another aspect of the paper I found to be intriguing:



    The Reich paper states that it is plausible that the Caucasus-related ancestry reported in Ravenae et al is likely to have been there since the early or middle Bronze-Age. Thus it stands to reason that this makes Southern Italian mainlanders; especially SItaly3 (see figure G, below) are indeed different from Sicilians. But who knows how Reich would model them. This is just my observations and speculation. At any rate, here are examples of the difference, below. If the plausibility is indeed correct, than the mainland south owes a lot of it's ancestry to the early to middle bronze age. While Sicily took a different route to get where it is today (Perhaps with Messina being an exception).



    Furthermore, I noticed that Anatolian_BA is also very similar to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples; More than it is to Levant_BA, as observed in the ADMIXTURE analysis below. One of the samples even overlaps with SItaly1




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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    In this admixture chart on line 550, it shows that the Ibiza_Phoenician sample's autosomal components looks very close to that of the Mycenaean. Let us see how things pan out in the final peer-reviewed version of the paper.

    Here's another aspect of the paper I found to be intriguing:



    The Reich paper states that it is plausible that the Caucasus-related ancestry reported in Ravenae et al is likely to have been there since the early or middle Bronze-Age. Thus it stands to reason that this makes Southern Italian mainlanders; especially SItaly3 (see figure G, below) are indeed different from Sicilians. But who knows how Reich would model them. This is just my observations and speculation. At any rate, here are examples of the difference, below. If the plausibility is indeed correct, than the mainland south owes a lot of it's ancestry to the early to middle bronze age. While Sicily took a different route to get where it is today (Perhaps with Messina being an exception).



    Furthermore, I noticed that Anatolian_BA is also very similar to the Minoan and Mycenaean samples; More than it is to Levant_BA, as observed in the ADMIXTURE analysis below. One of the samples even overlaps with SItaly1



    I noticed that SItaly3 gets a small amount of SBA, but a relatively large amount of WHG. Now these results seem to make more sense to me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    My results are in:

    Ancient Farmers: 77.0%
    • Western European Farmers: 31.1%
    • Levant: 2.4%
    • Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran-CHG: 6.3%
    • Eastern European Farmers: 37.1%


    Steppe Cultures: 16.8%
    • Karasuk-E Scythian 8.7%
    • Andronovo-Srubanaya: 8.1%


    Western European & Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers: 6.2%

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I noticed that SItaly3 gets a small amount of SBA, but a relatively large amount of WHG. Now these results seem to make more sense to me:
    Ancestry a part, i still dont really understand the concept of Baltic and Ukraine Neolithic without admixture, what were their cultural characteristics for being considered Neolithic groups but Pottery?

    And what does Eastern European Farmers means in terms of ancestral component, only EHG? and Steppe Cultures is EHG+CHG?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Ancestry a part, i still dont really understand the concept of Baltic and Ukraine Neolithic without admixture, what were their cultural characteristics for being considered Neolithic groups but Pottery?

    And what does Eastern European Farmers means in terms of ancestral component, only EHG? and Steppe Cultures is EHG+CHG?
    Eastern European farmers are EEF. There's no EHG involved. WHG if anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Eastern European farmers are EEF. There's no EHG involved. WHG if anything.
    What's the difference between WEEF and EEEF in his results then?

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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    What's the difference between WEEF and EEEF in his results then?
    Probably a lot of drift, but also the minor admixture might have been different as well as at different percentages. We now know, for example, that there was bit more El Miron in the Iberian farmers, most KO1 in the eastern ones.

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    Bump, do we know all Y haplogroups of males, there is four J haplogroups, one is confirmed J2b-L283, another one says J2a, what about other two? Also three males have mtDNA inserted instead of Ydna.

    Does anyone knows more about this?


    M G2a2b2b1a1
    M G2a2b2b1a1
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    F n/a (female)
    M H
    M U5a2b3
    M U5a2a1
    M U5a2a1
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M C1a2
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M J
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M J
    M J2a1
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    M J
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    F n/a (female)
    U n/a (sex undetermined)
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2a1
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2 (xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2a1
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2 (xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M R1b1a1a2a1a2 (xR1b1a1a2a1a2c)
    F n/a (female)
    M G2a2b2a1a1c1a
    M G2a2b2a1a1c1a2
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    F n/a (female)
    M G2a2b2a1a1c1a

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    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post

    The most interesting find to me are the LBA Sicilians from Trapani whom I would consider to be speakers of Indo-European. They have very little if any Caucasus admixture, and no steppe admixture. They cannot be Neolithic holdovers either since they carry Bronze Age TMRCA G2a-Z1903, one of them with a subclade specific to present day Scandinavia.

    I'm pretty sure these are Balkaners. Ultimately from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, perhaps by way of Baden-Boleraz.
    I am not sure if I understand Markod correctly, but this sounds like G2a-Z1903 travelled to Sicily independently of the R1b steppe-derived populations. Or if the two groups did move in tandem, up the Danube to Baden and then down through Italy (or west to Spain and then to Sicily), they did so without mixing or inter-marrying?

    If Markod is still reading this thread, perhaps he could elaborate.

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    This is from the Ancient Iberia thread, but relevant to my question

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A quick look at the haplogroups by period reveals that:

    New lineages that appear during the Chalcolithic include:

    - I2a1a-M26 and I2a1b-M423. Until the MLN, the I2 individuals all belonged to I2a2 - mostly the now rare Western European L1228 clade, but also to Z161.

    - G2a-Z1903 (downstream of L30, L140 and CTS342, TMRCA 4500 ybp, found all over Europe) while earlier Neolithic G2a belonged mostly to G2a-PF3148 (like Ötzi), a rarer clade today found notably in Sardinia and the Middle East.

    So there seems to have been a significant population replacement between the Middle-Late Neolithic and the Chalcolithic. The newcomers were also descended from the European G2a-I2a mixed population, but it looks like a male elite, probably originating from the Balkans, started replacing other Neolithic lineages in Iberia, and based on the modern distribution of I2-M26, I2-M423 and G2a-Z1903, across most of central and western Europe.

    In this study, these new lineages only show up in southern Iberia, while R1b-L23 (with some L51 and P312) makes its appearance only in central and northwest Iberia from circa 2100 BCE.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by markod View Post
    I'm pretty sure these are Balkaners. Ultimately from Chalcolithic Bulgaria, perhaps by way of Baden-Boleraz.
    From page 208 of Game of Clans, by Carlos Quiles ---> "Three Baden samples (ca. 3600-2850 BC) show no contribution of Steppe ancestry (Lipson et al 2017), with one hg. G2a2b2a1a1c1a-Z1903 (formed ca. 6000 BC, TMRCA ca. 2400 BC), which . . . supports the cultural rather than demic diffusion of concepts related to the Yamna culture during the 'Transformation of Europe'"

    https://indo-european.info/game-clans-clash-chiefs.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominique_nuit View Post
    From page 208 of Game of Clans, by Carlos Quiles ---> "Three Baden samples (ca. 3600-2850 BC) show no contribution of Steppe ancestry (Lipson et al 2017), with one hg. G2a2b2a1a1c1a-Z1903 (formed ca. 6000 BC, TMRCA ca. 2400 BC), which . . . supports the cultural rather than demic diffusion of concepts related to the Yamna culture during the 'Transformation of Europe'"

    https://indo-european.info/game-clans-clash-chiefs.pdf
    I personally wouldn't quote him for interpretations, but those samples also falsify Gimbutas, who saw Baden as a "steppe" culture genetically.

    I'm also pretty sure the cultural influence went both ways, with many innovations flowing from "Old Europe" to the steppe. There's been quite a few papers in the last few years showing just that.

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    Yes, DO NOT quote Quiles, his work is from my perspective colored by an ideological axe to grind with Eastern Europeans; he wishes to credit the Indo-Europeanization of Europe to R1b tribes now in Western Europe-their descendants have mainly been shorn of national and in general tend to white guilt, self-hating, and 'rootless cosmopolitanism' rather than to Eastern Europeans, who still have a sense of pride in Western civilization and who they are and their ancestors, the R1a tribes (in the interest of full disclosure I am R1a, but my opposition is out of my anti-authoritarian right Anglo-American ideological tradition; while I distrust racists I disdain neoliberal statists even more, and even more the insinuation that Eastern Europeans are, then as now, primitives in need of civilizing by the elites of western Europe)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joey37 View Post
    Yes, DO NOT quote Quiles, his work is from my perspective colored by an ideological axe to grind with Eastern Europeans; he wishes to credit the Indo-Europeanization of Europe to R1b tribes now in Western Europe-their descendants have mainly been shorn of national and in general tend to white guilt, self-hating, and 'rootless cosmopolitanism' rather than to Eastern Europeans, who still have a sense of pride in Western civilization and who they are and their ancestors, the R1a tribes (in the interest of full disclosure I am R1a, but my opposition is out of my anti-authoritarian right Anglo-American ideological tradition; while I distrust racists I disdain neoliberal statists even more, and even more the insinuation that Eastern Europeans are, then as now, primitives in need of civilizing by the elites of western Europe)
    Western Civilization was created by the Greeks and Romans, not the Indo-Europeans.

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    I cannot comment on whether Quiles has an illicit agenda. I am simply intrigued that G2a-Z1903 samples from the Chalcolithic and EBA were found to have no Steppe ancestry in three different studies:

    (1) Lipton et al at the Baden site,
    (2) by the authors of the Ancient Iberia paper (with Maciamo's gloss, which I quote upthread #62), and
    (3) by Fernandes et al in the article under discussion here

    I've been skimming through Quiles for the past few hours, and he actually discusses the Fernandes article on page 27 of Game of Chiefs, the second volume of his series.

    Quiles writes of the Fernandes study: "Iranian-related ancestry is found in Sicily by the Middle Bronze Age (ca. 1800-1500 BC), with a consistent shift towards Mycenaeans in the PCA. Specifically, two of the three sampled individuals can only be fit with Iran Neolithic (ca. 15-18%), apart from Northwest Anatolian and WHG-related ancestry, with good fits obtained with Minoans. Of the two reported haplogroups, one from the Aegean-related group is G2a-Z1903 . . . ."

    He continues: "In the Late Bronze Age (ca. 1450-900 BC), a further incursion of Steppe-related ancestry is found (ca. 15%), even though the two reported samples are one G2a-Z1903, and the other G2a-FGC46572."

    Is Quiles' reading of the Fernandes article correct? If so, it seems strange to me that G2a-Z1903 would have travelled through the Aegean (possibly Crete?) en route to Sicily, unless it was quite simply very widely diffused throughout Europe during the Copper Age. Or is it more likely that G2a-Z1903 admixed with Iranian-related elements in Sicily proper?

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    I've always been of the opinion that this sub lineage of G2a was widely diffused throughout Europe during the Copper Age and it admixed with "Iranian/CHG" like ancestry in Sicily, ancestry which started arriving a bit later.

    If it hasn't been found in Anatolia I think that is the most likely scenario.

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