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Thread: The Arrival of Steppe & Iranian Related Ancestry in Islands of West Mediterranean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    WHO CARES?

    The Anatolian Neolithic which went to Europe was not Boncuklu. They died out, probably because they didn't keep up.

    They're irrelevant by every paper ever published.
    Yes, but so what? I didn't mention Boncuklu. I said Barcin (at least the large majority of the Barcin samples). I think you know from studies that Western and especially Northwestern Anatolia_N are still considered to be by far the main origin of the ANF in EEF. That's partly why Pelopponese_N stands out so clearly, in fact. Unlike most early and middle Neolithic Europeans, its ANF was not almost entirely Barcin-like.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Yes, a separate arrival of population, though of course not completely unrelated to the already settled EEF, in comparison with the earliest Neolithic samples from Sicily itself and Italy more broadly, which were far less Tepecik/Kumtepe-like and, using Barcin_N, had less Levantine affinity (as well as CHG/Iran_N too, of course). More Tepecik-like admixture already increases by the BA and becomes much more significant even in later South Italian-like samples as well as modern Sicilians. Maybe you took the conversation to be about Europe as a whole. No, it was always about Sicily's genetic history specifically. No, I never saw it as a separate arrival of people who were pretty much like Levant_N even in the BA and IA (that's so obvious, frankly). If you've been reading attentively enough, you know that, and if you didn't then you should before laying illegitimate accusations based on your misinterpretations.

    Now I'm out of this. Unlike you think, I think you all seem a lot more emotional about this than me, and you definitely do show a much greater concern about the implications of these interpretation than me. I just don't like to keep people who posted replies to me waiting while I silence and don't address their questions and criticisms. That's all. Honestly I don't really care, I just find it a very interesting history topic that I have some opinions about and don't think we should be dogmatic nor get too self-righteous about it especially based on a tiny handful of (often misinterpreted, as I have seen here multiple times) past studies published by an extremely new science that is still developing.

    Cheers and take care you all!
    It's been quite clear to anyone with any brain cells in their heads that the populations of which you're thinking but don't name probably are or include the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, who of course have nothing to do with Southern Italy, so while you might have a shot at using them as a possibility for Sicily, the argument as a whole fails.

    I'm not "emotional" about it at all. I'm not Southern Italian or Sicilian myself, so it really doesn't affect my ancestry. It is my husband's ancestry, and I'd bet a substantial sum that he has more than the average amount of "Levantine" or at least Iranian like ancestry in him, which is more than fine with me. Given my tastes in men, maybe that's why I fell in love at first sight. Also, my favorite people after Italians are Ashkenazi Jews, so unlike a lot of people in this hobby, I'd be proud to be related to them.

    So, sorry, no one can throw the race card at me. Whatever the motivations of people like those at that italicroots place, my problem with this hobbyist "analysis" has always been an intellectual one. It doesn't hold water. Period.

    What I am is irritated that it took so long to get you to see what has been obvious for years and even now you refuse to acknowledge your error.

    Even if the hypothesis is one's own, one should have the ability to put one's ego aside and look at the evidence presented by others with as dispassionate a logic as possible, rather than insist that every single population geneticist in the world, as well as the people here, are wrong, and only you are right, particularly when the least bit of common sense should have shown you where you were going wrong.

    I acknowledge I get irritated easily when people don't catch on as easily as I think they should or aren't as logical as I think they should be. I'm sorry I show it as much as I do. That doesn't change the facts.

    Now I really am out.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It's been quite clear to anyone with any brain cells in their heads that the populations of which you're thinking but don't name are the Phoenicians/Carthaginians, who of course have nothing to do with Southern Italy, so while you might have a shot at using them as a possibility for Sicily, the argument as a whole fails.
    Haha, I had to laugh at this sentence, sorry for that. As I said before: misinterpretations based on preconceived ideas and expectations, perhaps caused by prior discussions with other totally different people but about broadly the same subject. And, yes, I won't lie: I thought about Phoenicians and especially Carthaginians as a possible PARTIAL source, why not? Isn't the North African signal indicative of something, too? But I never thought only about them. In fact, if you had indeed read what I wrote, I specifically and explicitly said several times that my opinion is that that Levant_N (and also part of the extra CHG/Iran_N) accumulated over time with the arrival of several distinct populations in succession over the history of Sicily, including, e.g., after the LBA, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, other Aegeans, Jews, Romanized Eastern Romans, Byzantines, etc. I even hypothesized that parts of South Italy were already richer in those non-typical EEF admixtures before the LBA, and what happened was simply an expansion from that part of South Italy to other parts of the peninsula and to Sicily.

    This is all written there if you read all the posts (I know, too many lines, too much "verbiage", so I get if that passed unseen). Too bad you preferred to be and (as I can see from your last post) remain judgmental. No problem, misunderstandings happen in life. Let's just get on with our lives.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    The Moroccan_EN used in the paper I think, as virtually every other do, was "found quite Greek-like" but there must have been a mistake, and was used just to capture the small north african in Sicilians.
    About Iran_N, I don't think that it came from a pure source, but that it came with Anatolian mixed with it, with no additional Lavant_N, because the latest study modelled Anatolian since the calcolithic as a two way mixture, and they did check whether using Levant_N gives better results.

    As for your model, still I have my issues: talking precisely about Sicilians, the samples is ridicolously small ( six, but three per group) and I don't know where those are from ( I asked this question also in the other thread), and the big variability of Levant_N ( there are one with 0 or 3 and other with 10) makes me wonder even more, because as far as I know there hasn't been found such a hetereogenity in the Sicilian gene pool. As long as you use them as " a guesswork", you can't do better because you can't work with what you don't have, but when you suggest that these are better than professional studies that used dozens if not hundreds of samples, then I find it hard to accept such a suggestion.

    Also the paper about Crete, or their position on a PCA, suggests that they do not have more Levant_N ancestry than their ancestors since the neolithic, since they fall west of the straight line that runs from Greece_N and Iran_N, in fact they are either closer to Europe and to the caucasus compared to their Minoan ancestors, not closer to the Levant.
    And frankly, I do not think that unsubstantiated opinions can play any role in a discussion about the best interpretation of the data we have: when we have new samples that support your opinion, than we might start to give it weight or even be "obliged to accept it in the face of evidence".
    Cretans are obviously shifted towards Anatolia in that PCA compared to Mycenaeans at least 20% towards some Anatolians. And one of the two Cretans is shifted 1/3 towards Levantines in the map. Levantines are next to Cypriots:


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Cretans are obviously shifted towards Anatolia in that PCA compared to Mycenaeans at least 20% towards some Anatolians. And one of the two Cretans is shifted 1/3 towards Levantines in the map. Levantines are next to Cypriots:


    It is better to compare today's Cretans with their ancestors, and even if they are shifted to north Levant compared to Myceneans, they do not compared to the Minoans. There is a Minoan that is quite "tepecik", but if you look that the Anatolia_N and Greece_N range it still falls inside the imaginary straight line from the most south east Greece_N and the Iran_N. It is a visually estimation but also the paper (lazaridis 2017) modelled Minoans as Anatolian_N and Iran_N.
    Futhermore I was referring to south levantines, given that we were talking about additional amount of levant_N (which would pull south east).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I also want to make clear that I am NOT saying that Morocco_LN is really similar to Myceneans, but that it was treated/modelled as such by the authors of the papers, otherwise it wouldn't have worked to model Sicilians and it wouldn't plot so close to Myceneans in the PCA they used. In short it was a mistake.
    I agree, we are in 100% agreement about Morroco_LN. I wish they would have used a better proxy because all it did is cause lots of confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post

    It is better to compare today's Cretans with their ancestors, and even if they are shifted to north Levant compared to Myceneans, they do not compared to the Minoans. There is a Minoan that is quite "tepecik", but if you look that the Anatolia_N and Greece_N range it still falls inside the imaginary straight line from the most south east Greece_N and the Iran_N. It is a visually estimation but also the paper (lazaridis 2017) modelled Minoans as Anatolian_N and Iran_N.
    Futhermore I was referring to south levantines, given that we were talking about additional amount of levant_N (which would pull south east).
    Modern Greeks show a stronger affinity with Myceaneans than Minoans, including Cretans. Minoans are more EEF shifted than Myceaneans. If you use Minoans instead the Middle Eastern component increases even higher.

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    That model involving Morocco LN in modern Sicilians is really curious. Morocco LN seems a mix of Barcin N-like (which they would have used as Anatolian Neo reference) and Taforalt-like, with some Natufian-like and traces of WHG. Apparently the problem in this case was the lack of another Natufian-related reference in the model, which forced the algorithm to pick up Morocco LN, which in turn could have been "drained" by this another reference if it were used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Well, that would be a bit like saying that we can't use North African sources to model their contribution to the gene pool of some place because they won't be 100% made by indigenous components. By that token, even Natufian would be "misleading", because it was also ~70% directly related to the Anatolian HGs further back. PPNB is the earliest Neolithic culture in the region. Nonetheless, the picture won't change if you use Natufian instead. Since Natufians were long gone (or rather changed into something else) by the time of the Neolithic and Chalcolithic expansion, if you use Natufian admixture you will get lower percentages, but no realistic interpretation of such a model would consider that there was actually direct Natufian contribution to Neolithic or Chalcolithic populations, that'd be totally anachronistic, so you would have to consider at least 2x the amount of Natufian to have a realistic estimate of the Levantine-related gene flow into some population compared to some earlier period.
    This ratio seems possible imo. Something like 1.7x. Unless there were flows in both directions between AAF/Boncuklu and ACF/Barcin periods. The former (AAF) seems to lack Natufian-related ancestry. So, the first flows North, from Levant, could perhaps have been slightly richer in Natufian-related ancestry (?), and they could have occurred at the same time there were flows South from somewhere in Anatolia. PPNB already had some CHG/Iran-related ancestry (as AAF/Bonculklu had). However, flows in both ways at the same time don't seem likely, and actually the proportion of CHG/Iran-like ancestry in AAF seem to fit well the proportion of this component in PPNB when non-Natufian ancestry is considered. So, indeed, it looks like there was this first AAF->pre-PPNB flow followed by a PPNB(-like)->Anatolia flow, in turn followed by another increase in both Natufian-related and CHG/Iran-related ancestries, resulting in Tepecik.
    We could also consider that clines where/are common, at the same time there're important unsampled areas (such in part of Fertile Crescent). It'll be interesting to know how people from these other areas looked like, and if they could somehow illuminate the scenario.

    By the way, according to Feldman et al. and also G25 PCA, Barcin N (ACF) already had Levant-PPNB related ancestry, which Boncuklu (AAF) lacked, and also CHG/Iran-related, which Boncuklu had. Tepecik, in turn, had an excess of both ancestries compared to Barcin N, which evidences a continuous ~East-West flow (bringing both Natufian-related and CHG/Iran-related ancestries) from somewhere else into parts of Anatolia, between 10200-8300 years ago. What I think is curious is this "coincidence" in both Natufian and CHG/Iran increase into Tepecik (did they arrive independently?), that's why I speculate a possible (already mixed) source somewhere in Fertile Crescent, comparatively heavier in CHG/Iran-like and Natufian-like, and poorer in Anatolian-like). But again, we cannot rule out independent sources, of course, also because AAF had only CHG/Iran, while ACF had both at similar proportion (which means at some point Natufian ancestry has grown more than CHG/Iran, suggestive of independent movements, at least till some time before ACF period).
    Anyway, apparently this ~E-W flow continued, which could perhaps explain why Isparta prefers Tepecik over Barcin largely, while modern Sicilians seems to be a mix of a Barcin-like (supposedly arrived earlier) and a Tepecik-like (supposedly arrived in post-Neo and associated to ABA?). We'd be talking of an important influence of both SBA and ABA ancestries over South Italy in general.
    Uniparental markers may provide clues on this, as well as some TMRCAs (when decently interpreted). An example that comes to my mind is G-M406. Despite being so old (slightly older than the "cousin" clade G-P303, more common in Europe), it was not identified in Neolithic Europe thus far, but it shows up above traces in South Italy and Greece (it's also present in other parts of Europe, of course; in lower frequencies though). I wonder if it could be related to this possible more eastern/Tepecik-like source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think once Lazaridis' pre-print on Dzudzurna finally comes out, there are going to be some rethinking of these models. Considering that Dzudzurna is very similar to Anatolian_N. While Natufian is Dzudzurna, plus Ancestral North African. Perhaps Anatolian_N is an isolated Dzudzurna-like population, and not necessarily a mixture of WHG and Natufian.
    Precisely. According to Lazaridis et. al., Anatolian and Dzudzuana were virtually the same, the former descending from the latter, with very little input from other sources. In this sense, Anatolian would be kind of a "Dzudzuana relic". :) However, Natufian would be mostly Dzudzuana plus some Taforalt, which in turn also had Dzudzuana (at ~55%). Both Dzudzuana and Taforalt had "deep ancestry" (BE-like or something), so at the end both would be a mix of WHG-like and deep ancestry, if I got it correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    I never bought this idea that AHG were basicall WHG+Natufian. It makes very little sense, and especially WHG is very divergent from AHG. I think Lazaridis et al.'s remark on the Dzudzuana pre-print that the Neolithic Anatolians (I assume he means the average typically Anatolian ancestry) resulted from a Dzuduana-like source added to something more WHG-like (but not WHG) and more Basal Eurasian is more credible.
    IIRC, Lazaridis et al. suggested Anatolians and Dzudzuana formed a clade. Dzdzuana itself would be a mix of this WHG-like ancestry (~72%) with "deep ancestry", and that's why Anatolians also had WHG-like ancestry (taked directly from Dzudzuana ancestors).

    By the way, Ygorcs, it would be really great if anyone of us could learn how to use qpAdm and other tools. This seems a good start:
    https://bodkan.net/admixr/articles/tutorial.html (check also D statistic and f4 statistic)

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    "Anyway, apparently this ~E-W flow continued, which could perhaps explain why Isparta prefers Tepecik over Barcin largely, while modern Sicilians seems to be a mix of a Barcin-like (supposedly arrived earlier) and a Tepecik-like (supposedly arrived in post-Neo and associated to ABA?). We'd be talking of an important influence of both SBA and ABA ancestries over South Italy in general."

    Highly unlikely for most of it, since the increased percentages are already present in both The Iceman and Remedello, and Kilinc et al specifically points out that this "Tepecik" like ancestry had probably traversed all of Anatolia, reaching therefore the Kumtepe jumping off point for the Balkans, BEFORE the Chalcolithic.

    For those who love to do their own models, see how much Levant Neolithic can be "PULLED OUT" of The Iceman and Remedello, the latter of which are ancestors of North Italians as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Modern Greeks show a stronger affinity with Myceaneans than Minoans, including Cretans. Minoans are more EEF shifted than Myceaneans. If you use Minoans instead the Middle Eastern component increases even higher.
    Good to know, thanks for the piece of information. Still, something jumps to my eyes: Crete, Greek central anatolia (cappadocian?) are in a straight line towards Haji Firuz. I have this personal theory of mine ( sure that many other must have thought the same) that before some event (the turkish migration? ) Anatolia was a bridge between Greece and the caucasus. This is a bit off topic, still...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    "Anyway, apparently this ~E-W flow continued, which could perhaps explain why Isparta prefers Tepecik over Barcin largely, while modern Sicilians seems to be a mix of a Barcin-like (supposedly arrived earlier) and a Tepecik-like (supposedly arrived in post-Neo and associated to ABA?). We'd be talking of an important influence of both SBA and ABA ancestries over South Italy in general."

    Highly unlikely for most of it, since the increased percentages are already present in both The Iceman and Remedello, and Kilinc et al specifically points out that this "Tepecik" like ancestry had probably traversed all of Anatolia, reaching therefore the Kumtepe jumping off point for the Balkans, BEFORE the Chalcolithic.

    For those who love to do their own models, see how much Levant Neolithic can be "PULLED OUT" of The Iceman and Remedello, the latter of which are ancestors of North Italians as well.
    Thanks for pointing this out. Later I'll explore the models using your post as reference.

    @Angela and all, btw, notice how these models may be delicate. Using Khvalynsk or Yamanaya Samara makes a big difference. Both results seem to be related to the so-called Italian cline, still...
    (I used 5 sources for WHG.)

    Using Khvalynsk


    Using Yamnaya Samara


    Using both Khvalynsk and Samara (without Karelia), as I did with Barcin and Tepecik, assuming there could be different sources for "Steppe ancestry". It chose Yamnaya Samara entirely.


    However, I noticed PPNB in Lazio for example seems too high, then I've tried to reproduce this last model using nMonte3 (penalty = 0.001) in R SW, rather than nMonte, just out of curiosity. (AFAIK pen = 0.001 instead pen = 0 in G25 is used by many.) Notice how PPNB drops, interestingly:

    - Lazio
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,40.6
    TUR_Barcin_N,29
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,15.8
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,4.6
    WHG,4.4
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,3.6
    GEO_CHG,1.4
    Levant_PPNB,0.6

    Total of 69.6 Anatolian Neo, 19.4 Steppe, 6.0 CHG/Iran, 4.4 WHG and 0.6 Levant PPNB only.

    - Now the same approach (pen = 0.001) for Sicilian East

    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,54.4
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,14.4
    TUR_Barcin_N,14.2
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,5.2
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,4.4
    Levant_PPNB,2.6
    WHG,2.2
    MAR_EN,1.4
    GEO_CHG,1.2

    Total of 68.6 Anatolian Neo, 18.8 Steppe, 6.4 CHG/Iran, 2.2 WHG, 2.6 Levant PPNB and 1.4 MAR EN. Also a big difference.

    Do you guys think that these few more Anatolian, Steppe and WHG in Lazio, compared to East Sicily, could explain their positions in PCA in relation to one another? I'm asking because I don't know. :)

    If you want me to run this model (in R SW) for any other Italian pop, just ask.

    You guys can read about nMonte3 (text of the author) here (search for introduction nMonte3.doc). It says nMonte3 addresses the problem of overfitting, so, importantly, it implies that nMonte has a problem with overfitting. Vahaduo should include also this adapted G25, I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    Good to know, thanks for the piece of information. Still, something jumps to my eyes: Crete, Greek central anatolia (cappadocian?) are in a straight line towards Haji Firuz. I have this personal theory of mine ( sure that many other must have thought the same) that before some event (the turkish migration? ) Anatolia was a bridge between Greece and the caucasus. This is a bit off topic, still...
    Cappodican Greeks are a little bit more eastern shifted than the Bronze Age Anatolians of the Cappadocia (they plot with Cyprus) but it probably has to do with some Armenian expansion before the Iron Age but for the rest of the Turks it's mostly the Turkic admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thanks for pointing this out. Later I'll explore the models using your post as reference.

    @Angela and all, btw, notice how these models may be delicate. Using Khvalynsk or Yamanaya Samara makes a big difference. Both results seem to be related to the so-called Italian cline, still...
    (I used 5 sources for WHG.)

    Using Khvalynsk


    Using Yamnaya Samara


    Using both Khvalynsk and Samara (without Karelia), as I did with Barcin and Tepecik, assuming there could be different sources for "Steppe ancestry". It chose Yamnaya Samara entirely.


    However, I noticed PPNB in Lazio for example seems too high, then I've tried to reproduce this last model using nMonte3 (penalty = 0.001) in R SW, rather than nMonte, just out of curiosity. (AFAIK pen = 0.001 instead pen = 0 in G25 is used by many.) Notice how PPNB drops, interestingly:

    - Lazio
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,40.6
    TUR_Barcin_N,29
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,15.8
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,4.6
    WHG,4.4
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,3.6
    GEO_CHG,1.4
    Levant_PPNB,0.6

    Total of 69.6 Anatolian Neo, 19.4 Steppe, 6.0 CHG/Iran, 4.4 WHG and 0.6 Levant PPNB only.

    - Now the same approach (pen = 0.001) for Sicilian East

    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,54.4
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,14.4
    TUR_Barcin_N,14.2
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,5.2
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,4.4
    Levant_PPNB,2.6
    WHG,2.2
    MAR_EN,1.4
    GEO_CHG,1.2

    Total of 68.6 Anatolian Neo, 18.8 Steppe, 6.4 CHG/Iran, 2.2 WHG, 2.6 Levant PPNB and 1.4 MAR EN. Also a big difference.

    Do you guys think that these few more Anatolina, Steppe and WHG in Lazio, compared to East Sicily, could explain their positions in PCA? I'm asking because I don't know. :)

    If you want me to run this model (in R SW) for any other Italian pop, just ask.

    You guys can read about nMonte3 (text of the author) here (search for introduction nMonte3.doc). It says nMonte3 addresses the problem of overfitting, so, importantly, it implies that nMonte has a problem with overfitting. Vahaduo should include also this adapted G25, I guess.
    Just my two cents: Khvalynsk_En usually works much better for partially steppe-derived Europeans (perhaps not so much in the Balkans, but certainly in the others regions). The kind of steppe people that expanded into Europe seems to have had a higher EHG:CHG ratio than Yamnaya_Samara, so that excessive CHG in relation to the actual source population and the EEF already embedded into Yamnaya_Samara (unlike Khvalynsk, which had no EEF) must skew results quite a bit.

    As for more "mixed" and "eastern" Tepecik vs. Barcin, it certainly began at least by the early-mid Neolithic in Greece and the MLN Italy, but very probably not in all areas and not in the same proportions everywhere in those regions. I'm sure genetic structure existed back then especially with the particular topography and the higher or lower "openness" of the Italian peninsula to influences from distinct parts of Europe depending on the region. In my models, which I think also parallel the K= admixture models I've seen in the Sicilian and Italian aDNA studies, some Tepecik-like admixture appears in the Neolithic and increases in varying proportions, but consistently, along the time until the LBA-IA interval, though, as I said before, that may just indicate we don't have samples from all the relevant areas involved and may lack a clear picture of the entire genetic structure of both Italy and the Balkans before the MLBA, with some of them having simply multiplied their population more than others.

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    Regio_X: Really really nice work there. I complemented YGORCS on his modeling skills with G25 and I compliment yours as well. But for me it kind of goes back to something that I said in other threads, if the model is valid or a good model, then the results that come from it that are totally out of line with what all the literature is saying is the result of sample selection and/or proxy variables chosen.

    Your work clearly indicate the sensitivity of some admixture sources just by what Steppe proxy source you use. But your models look very, very, plausible and are to me consistent with what I have seen in all the most recent papers on Italian genetics.

    Have you tried to model the Neolithic Romans from Antonio et al 2019? using the approach you did in post 186.

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    Bergamo, for comparison
    TUR_Barcin_N,41.4
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,25.2
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,20.2
    WHG,7.8
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,4.4
    GEO_CHG,0.8
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.2

    Total of 66.6 Anatolian Neo, 24.6 Steppe, 7.8 WHG and 1.0 CHG/Iran.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Just my two cents: Khvalynsk_En usually works much better for partially steppe-derived Europeans (perhaps not so much in the Balkans, but certainly in the others regions). The kind of steppe people that expanded into Europe seems to have had a higher EHG:CHG ratio than Yamnaya_Samara, so that excessive CHG in relation to the actual source population and the EEF already embedded into Yamnaya_Samara must skew results quite a bit.
    Yes, but the co-presence of both ancestries plus the penalty could not deal with it?
    I remember of an older post of yours (from months ago, maybe) in which you've tried to distinguish the kind of Steppe ancestry present in North and South Italy. If so, I thought both could be present in different parts of Italy at different degrees.

    Anyway, this is just a start. We surely can explore more models.

    Check what the author said regarding nMonte3 vs. nMonte.

    @Palermo
    Thanks. I haven't tried, but I can do it later, "if" I find time. It was already difficult to do the previous models, believe me. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Regio_X: Really really nice work there. I complemented YGORCS on his modeling skills with G25 and I compliment yours as well. But for me it kind of goes back to something that I said in other threads, if the model is valid or a good model, then the results that come from it that are totally out of line with what all the literature is saying is the result of sample selection and/or proxy variables chosen.
    Let me take this opportunity to answer the post you wrote complimenting me and my work before. Amidst the hot discussion I ended up reading it only later after many posts had been written. Thank you very much for your kind and generous words, but I'm just an amateur who has been reading about history and, more recently, about population genetics for a quite long time. Nothing more than that. I'm really flattered, though, you may have thought I knew better than I do. lol! I also thank you and compliment you for your generally polite, patient and moderate approach even when making criticisms. That's really remarkable and much needed in this internet era prone to easy misunderstandings and verbal excesses because of the distance and the lack of that face to face contact that humanizes us all. Cheers!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Anyway, this is just a start. We surely can explore more models.

    Check what the author said regarding nMonte3 vs. nMonte.
    Yes, surely, I'll keep trying to add the inferences and hints of several models compared to each other to what we can read in published papers.

    As for nMonte3, I did use it a few times, but I gave up after getting some strange results for some target samples I was analyzing. But maybe the problem was in my source samples chosen for the model. I'll give it a try again. I knew nMonte3 was designed to avoid overfitting. If it really works, it's great news.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Thanks for pointing this out. Later I'll explore the models using your post as reference.

    @Angela and all, btw, notice how these models may be delicate. Using Khvalynsk or Yamanaya Samara makes a big difference. Both results seem to be related to the so-called Italian cline, still...
    (I used 5 sources for WHG.)

    Using Khvalynsk


    Using Yamnaya Samara


    Using both Khvalynsk and Samara (without Karelia), as I did with Barcin and Tepecik, assuming there could be different sources for "Steppe ancestry". It chose Yamnaya Samara entirely.


    However, I noticed PPNB in Lazio for example seems too high, then I've tried to reproduce this last model using nMonte3 (penalty = 0.001) in R SW, rather than nMonte, just out of curiosity. (AFAIK pen = 0.001 instead pen = 0 in G25 is used by many.) Notice how PPNB drops, interestingly:

    - Lazio
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,40.6
    TUR_Barcin_N,29
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,15.8
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,4.6
    WHG,4.4
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,3.6
    GEO_CHG,1.4
    Levant_PPNB,0.6

    Total of 69.6 Anatolian Neo, 19.4 Steppe, 6.0 CHG/Iran, 4.4 WHG and 0.6 Levant PPNB only.

    - Now the same approach (pen = 0.001) for Sicilian East

    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,54.4
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,14.4
    TUR_Barcin_N,14.2
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,5.2
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,4.4
    Levant_PPNB,2.6
    WHG,2.2
    MAR_EN,1.4
    GEO_CHG,1.2

    Total of 68.6 Anatolian Neo, 18.8 Steppe, 6.4 CHG/Iran, 2.2 WHG, 2.6 Levant PPNB and 1.4 MAR EN. Also a big difference.

    Do you guys think that these few more Anatolian, Steppe and WHG in Lazio, compared to East Sicily, could explain their positions in PCA in relation to one another? I'm asking because I don't know. :)

    If you want me to run this model (in R SW) for any other Italian pop, just ask.

    You guys can read about nMonte3 (text of the author) here (search for introduction nMonte3.doc). It says nMonte3 addresses the problem of overfitting, so, importantly, it implies that nMonte has a problem with overfitting. Vahaduo should include also this adapted G25, I guess.
    I do indeed see the issue, but the problem is that it has never been made clear to me which steppe sample represents the people likeliest to actually have moved into central and southern Europe.

    It would seem that the amount of Caucasus like ancestry in the steppe sample is going to determine the outcome. People with different percentages might and probably did go to different places in Europe, as was the case with the Anatolia Neolithic samples.

    I heard talk that perhaps the Greek speakers actually came from around Yamnaya but I don't know if there's any hard evidence to support that.

    What are the most proximate samples, in your opinion, for the steppe people who actually entered southern Europe?

    If there's no evidence for a clear favorite, then perhaps they should be averaged, as Fernandes did for the Anatolian Neolithic.

    This is the kind of thing I have often talked about where if you know the calculator in question well enough, and the make up of the individual samples well enough, you can design a model to support your position.

    I hasten to say I'm not accusing anyone posting here of doing that.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Let me take this opportunity to answer the post you wrote complimenting me and my work before. Amidst the hot discussion I ended up reading it only later after many posts had been written. Thank you very much for your kind and generous words, but I'm just an amateur who has been reading about history and, more recently, about population genetics for a quite long time. Nothing more than that. I'm really flattered, though, you may have thought I knew better than I do. lol! I also thank you and compliment you for your generally polite, patient and moderate approach even when making criticisms. That's really remarkable and much needed in this internet era prone to easy misunderstandings and verbal excesses because of the distance and the lack of that face to face contact that humanizes us all. Cheers!
    YGORCS: No problem Well not to get theological, I like to think I have the spirit of Saint Francis of Assissi, but the reality is My American_Sicilian temper sometimes gets the best of me as well. In the other thread, before everything was moved here, I dropped an allegorical Bomb so to speak and when that happens, time to get away and cool off a bit. Like I said, I wish I would have worded my language more diplomatically and just said "Perhaps you were not aware that Morroco_LN is not 100% ANA or Berber" so I like to think when you screw up and your in the wrong, have the courtesy to apologize and admit your wrong.

    I agree about the internet, for its good, it does have the ability for people to dehumanize other people across the forum and say things that you would never say in public nor want to be said in public about you. I am still new here and of course the topic about Sicilian DNA is obviously one that hits close to me, and of course when some of the folks from "North of the Alps" start with the stuff about Antonio et al 2019 Ancient Roman study and how there were 2 to 3 Iron Age Romans Southern shifted, and 31 of the 48 Imperial Romans Central to southern Shifted, and thus something has to be wrong, no it can't be, etc, etc, etc, that crap does get me hot under the collar, I will confess (not that you were ever part of that cohort, but you know the types I am talking about). Still, I always strive to be civil and courteous and when I screw up and say something inappropriate (e.g., saying you were childish), I own up to it. Like I said, I could have expressed what I said with much better civility, while still holding to my beliefs and principals about the Morroco_LN variable and how it modeled admixture wise and thus how well it works for modeling Sicilian DNA. Like I said, if it is in fact 30% from the Maghreb, no way it can work, and I think we agree there.

    In the area of Genetics/DNA research and related fields, I am an amateur as well (I am not a Geneticist) nor I am a Archaeologist, which is another field important, as is history. But I love all 3 fields. However, I am trained well enough in research methods and statistics to read a research paper and catch faulty scholarship and in your case, as Regio_X, and others (Jovialis) appreciate someone who can take these data references and do a good job modeling populations and producing results that are consistent with the actual papers published in the extant Genetics literature.

    So my compliment to you is legit, I have my priors on things but nothing wrong with having your priors challenged to make sure your theories are solid. Same as for Regio_X and Jovialis who also have produced some nice graphs in posts since I have been here. Jovialis work with getting the coordinates for the Ancient Romans for various calculators, and others here at Eupedia who helped with that who I can't recall, hell of job.

    Regards, PT

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Bergamo, for comparison
    TUR_Barcin_N,41.4
    TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N,25.2
    Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,20.2
    WHG,7.8
    RUS_Khvalynsk_En,4.4
    GEO_CHG,0.8
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.2

    Total of 66.6 Anatolian Neo, 24.6 Steppe, 7.8 WHG and 1.0 CHG/Iran.

    Yes, but the co-presence of both ancestries plus the penalty could not deal with it?
    I remember of an older post of yours (from months ago, maybe) in which you've tried to distinguish the kind of Steppe ancestry present in North and South Italy. If so, I thought both could be present in different parts of Italy at different degrees.

    Anyway, this is just a start. We surely can explore more models.

    Check what the author said regarding nMonte3 vs. nMonte.

    @Palermo
    Thanks. I haven't tried, but I can do it later, "if" I find time. It was already difficult to do the previous models, believe me. :)
    Ok, Oh In understand. I appreciate your efforts. If you do try it, my opinion, and for the record, that is all it is!, I would suggest following the admixture graph in the Antonio et al 2019 paper. Start with the Local Roman_WHG and other Italian_HG (Villabruna) and then see if during Neolithic there are different sources of Anatolian_Neollithic, or just 1 source. The paper documents CHG/Iran_NEO that came in during the Neolithic so it seems logical that if one of the Neolithic sources used doesn't capture the Iran_NEO/CHG that Antonio et al 2019 found, might not be the best source of Anatolian_Neolithic for the Neolithic Romans.

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    North Africans are very pushed away from Levantines, so an actual 5% Northern African admixture could give a 15% Lebenase admixture in a genetic calculator, so one should be careful to use the appropriate samples this way it end up being an overfitted model.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    North Africans are very pushed away from Levantines, so an actual 5% Northern African admixture could give a 15% Lebenase admixture in a genetic calculator, so one should be careful to use the appropriate samples this way it end up being an overfitted model.
    That's why I think it's best to use the most diverged/least mixed samples that are best representative of what was distinctive in the genetic structure of several distinct regions (e.g. it's going to be a big problem if you use Steppe but no CHG-rich Near Eastern sample in any population that actually got CHG via independent routes) - and then, above all, anyone must avoid interpreting the results literally, i.e. if it says a certain % is linked to a certain sample from the Levant or from Russia it of course does not mean it must have necessarily come from there, not from intermediate mixed populations or even a completely different but closely related population due to high levels of shared ancestry.

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    Thought this might be of interest to some of you guys. From the look of it, I find it unlikely that Büyükkaya_EC, Kumtepe and Tepecik-Ciftlik really lacked any extra Levant_N/Natufian affinity higher than what you'd find in Barcin, Boncuklu or the earlier Pinarbasi_AHG and only had CHG/Iran added in an exclusively Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran cline. Unlike other ANF, who are consistently closest to Sardinians, those are strongly pulled much closer toward several individuals from groups that, even though today heavily admixed, are either Levantine (Lebanese), of Levantine origin (Jews) or living very close to the Levant (Cyprus, Kos), instead of any populations that are mainly just Anatolia+CHG/Iran with very no detectable (not already present in Barcin-like people) Levant_N. That tendency of comparatively closer affinity to partially Levant-derived populations is particularly strong in the majority (all but 1) of the Tepecik-Ciftlik samples. So, I keep my doubts that they are best modelled as simply part of an Anatolia:CHG/Iran cline without any even minor participation of the Levant in that history (though I'm sure they could be modelled without it, given how minor this admixture is and how relatively closely related it is to other ANF samples, so the fits won't get that worse just because you made your model without it).

    Also, comparing Levant_PPNB samples to Anatolia_N ones, Tepecik-Ciftlik and Kumtepe appear consistently much closer to them than Barcin_N and Boncuklu_N as well as Buyukkaya_EC, with most individuals not much more distant than the confirmed Levant_N-shifted (according to the authors of the paper) Tell Kurdu. The higher distance of Buyukkaya_EC is probably explained by the significant extra (beyond what was already in Tepecik-like people) CHG/Iran_N, which was a far more divergent and thus more distant admixture, because on the whole it was clearly more Tepecik-like than Barcin-like.

    CLOSEST GENETIC DISTANCES TO:

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    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
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    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
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    0.07600420 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese4AQ115
    0.07602093 Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
    0.07602826 Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4


    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.07949427 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08027154 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08327072 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08692853 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08862466 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08985020 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.09127246 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.09159680 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09189573 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09197428 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.09209790 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.09300752 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.09425037 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.09527881 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.09528242 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.09608390 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09701064 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.09724506 Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.09728082 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.09770383 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.09773373 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.09813541 Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_1
    0.09858622 Italian_Basilicata:PG25
    0.09866615 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7
    0.09885649 Greek_Crete:Crete7


    Distance to: TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.07448993 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.07483299 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.07576479 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.07619072 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.07665219 Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2
    0.07669434 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.07684932 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.07736460 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.07800805 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.07872851 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.07912070 Greek_Crete:Crete7
    0.07935267 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
    0.07947786 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.07956981 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.07985500 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.07998311 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.08011884 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3
    0.08058599 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.08059896 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9
    0.08072907 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5
    0.08083146 Maltese:Malta15AM91
    0.08129719 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.08171840 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.08187716 Italian_Calabria:ALP596
    0.08194836 Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.07842168 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08064705 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08275450 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08387873 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08451324 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08631972 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.08993507 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09310765 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09375059 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.09512188 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09669250 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.11127426 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.11290561 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.11386614 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.11653179 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.11713637 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.11817232 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.11820644 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.11832132 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.11856837 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.11896434 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.11980303 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.12000111 French_Corsica:Corsica29708
    0.12001038 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.12029216 Italian_Basilicata:PG20


    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.08267126 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08561970 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08620401 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08665795 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08942567 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.09193371 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09339714 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09432365 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.09704821 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09770569 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.10703229 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.11552969 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.11824071 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.11880621 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.11967892 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.12005339 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.12157303 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.12296745 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.12334248 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.12344677 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.12461101 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.12463992 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.12501007 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.12572558 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.12615685 Italian_Basilicata:PG20


    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.08173157 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08244882 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08261927 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08264346 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08661107 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08998998 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09033272 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.09172584 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09334882 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09347792 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.10404224 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.10964629 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.11159682 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.11185453 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.11301952 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.11428321 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.11676057 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.11678322 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.11776283 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.11788291 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.11858828 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.11923746 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.11978913 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.11997743 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.12023190 Italian_Basilicata:PG25


    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.07057967 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.07451939 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.07522570 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.07729441 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.07785505 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08140553 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.08334604 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.08729519 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.08767246 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.08886065 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09164748 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.09791283 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.10156992 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.10194984 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.10250347 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.10258455 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.10286484 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.10327320 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.10445641 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.10469991 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.10482746 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.10516255 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.10550685 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.10555527 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.10606162 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

    GENETIC DISTANCE: LEVANT VS. ANATOLIA

    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:BAJ001
    0.11467520 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.11596302 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.12337218 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.13064692 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.13099519 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.13152104 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.13864373 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.14137715 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.14802320 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.14802507 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.15121699 TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.15229100 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.15285341 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.15429851 TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018
    0.15471732 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.15620402 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.15631343 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.15878425 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.16030326 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.16035256 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.16047584 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.16098703 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.16224672 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.16260144 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.16294108 TUR_Barcin_N:I0709


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I0867
    0.08503868 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.08812055 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09477869 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.09566242 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.10648213 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10664054 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.10770789 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.10845840 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.11227904 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.11475981 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.11563090 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.11716518 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.11721502 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.11806050 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.12021710 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.12031092 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.12085351 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.12092333 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.12282823 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.12317659 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.12340227 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12375812 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.12414747 TUR_Barcin_N:I0723
    0.12604482 TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
    0.12762267 TUR_Barcin_N:I0744


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I1704
    0.08424608 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.08952674 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09265701 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.09887992 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.10350613 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10496203 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.10784249 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.11313852 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.11436927 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.11616284 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.11660952 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.12153944 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.12188064 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12265562 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.12321288 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.12327239 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.12352086 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.12369151 TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.12631843 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.12651497 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.12706754 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.12782611 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.12848199 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.12975291 TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
    0.12993585 TUR_Barcin_N:I0723


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I1707
    0.08824151 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.09088006 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09330426 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.10120114 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10764001 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.11323937 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.11432164 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.11517000 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.12008128 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.12026043 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.12593508 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.12743434 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12892241 TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.12971536 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.12976708 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.12992724 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.13021591 TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018
    0.13128965 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.13257008 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.13260941 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.13438090 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.13445362 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.13471279 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.13544604 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.13844636 TUR_Barcin_N:I1100


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I1710
    0.08183354 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.08870011 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09032972 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.09397471 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.09507766 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.09774276 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10031070 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.10058383 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.10347375 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.10400370 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.10483433 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.10521050 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.10583914 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.10769646 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.10896576 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.11069886 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.11135791 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.11186268 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.11204973 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.11209743 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.11427244 TUR_Barcin_N:I0724
    0.11526345 TUR_Barcin_N:I0723
    0.11565291 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.11592432 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.11752732 TUR_Barcin_N:I0744
    Last edited by Ygorcs; 17-07-20 at 10:37.

  24. #199
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I do indeed see the issue, but the problem is that it has never been made clear to me which steppe sample represents the people likeliest to actually have moved into central and southern Europe.

    It would seem that the amount of Caucasus like ancestry in the steppe sample is going to determine the outcome. People with different percentages might and probably did go to different places in Europe, as was the case with the Anatolia Neolithic samples.

    I heard talk that perhaps the Greek speakers actually came from around Yamnaya but I don't know if there's any hard evidence to support that.

    What are the most proximate samples, in your opinion, for the steppe people who actually entered southern Europe?

    If there's no evidence for a clear favorite, then perhaps they should be averaged, as Fernandes did for the Anatolian Neolithic.

    This is the kind of thing I have often talked about where if you know the calculator in question well enough, and the make up of the individual samples well enough, you can design a model to support your position.

    I hasten to say I'm not accusing anyone posting here of doing that.
    It's not clear, indeed, as far as I can see. Well, researchers have been working with Yamnaya as the main source of Steppe ancestry in Europe. Also, IIRC some people claim that CW would have been pretty Yamnaya-like at certain point; others, and not only Ygorcs, suggest the main source (comparatively poorer in CHG) was not sampled yet, and it could have been closer to Kvhalynsk than to Yamnaya, and on and on. There's also this possibility that there was more than one source, so...

    Anyway, that's also why I followed Ygorcs and added Khvalynsk, but I kept Yamnaya to see how the tool would behave when distant admixtures are penalized, in the hope it would be able to distinguish better the contributions. In this approach, the Steppe ancestry itself seemed more realistic, lower than using no penalty.

    However, Angela (and also Ygorcs), importantly, I noticed that sources that get no score may still slightly interfere with results, which seems strange. Even worst, each run generates different results in R when using pen = 0.001. I still have to check if the order in the file also matters.
    Well, not sure how to interpret it. The differences are not very big (we can have a notion of the contributions anyway), but they're there. This problem doesn't seem to happen with pen = 0. Perhaps a better approach would be working with averages from few runs when using pen = 0.001.

    @Palermo
    Ok. I'll see if I manage to do it later.

    @Ygorcs
    If you check my post, I suggested extra-Levant-related and extra-CHG/Iran-related forTepecik precisely (in relation to Barcin).
    Chronologically we"d have something like:
    AHG: no Levant-related and no CHG/Iran-related;

    AAF
    Boncuklu: no Levant-related, but with CHG/Iran-related;

    ACF
    Barcin: Levant-related and CHG/Iran-related;

    Tepecik: extra-Levant-related and extra-CHG/Iran-related, compared to Barcin.

    Levant PPNB samples were from between AAF and ACF periods. Levant PPNB must have received AAF-related ancestry.

  25. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygorcs View Post
    Thought this might be of interest to some of you guys. From the look of it, I find it unlikely that Büyükkaya_EC, Kumtepe and Tepecik-Ciftlik really lacked any extra Levant_N/Natufian affinity higher than what you'd find in Barcin, Boncuklu or the earlier Pinarbasi_AHG and only had CHG/Iran added in an exclusively Anatolia-Caucasus-Iran cline. Unlike other ANF, who are consistently closest to Sardinians, those are strongly pulled much closer toward several individuals from groups that, even though today heavily admixed, are either Levantine (Lebanese), of Levantine origin (Jews) or living very close to the Levant (Cyprus, Kos), instead of any populations that are mainly just Anatolia+CHG/Iran with very no detectable (not already present in Barcin-like people) Levant_N. That tendency of comparatively closer affinity to partially Levant-derived populations is particularly strong in the majority (all but 1) of the Tepecik-Ciftlik samples. So, I keep my doubts that they are best modelled as simply part of an Anatolia:CHG/Iran cline without any even minor participation of the Levant in that history (though I'm sure they could be modelled without it, given how minor this admixture is and how relatively closely related it is to other ANF samples, so the fits won't get that worse just because you made your model without it).

    Also, comparing Levant_PPNB samples to Anatolia_N ones, Tepecik-Ciftlik and Kumtepe appear consistently much closer to them than Barcin_N and Boncuklu_N as well as Buyukkaya_EC, with most individuals not much more distant than the confirmed Levant_N-shifted (according to the authors of the paper) Tell Kurdu. The higher distance of Buyukkaya_EC is probably explained by the significant extra (beyond what was already in Tepecik-like people) CHG/Iran_N, which was a far more divergent and thus more distant admixture, because on the whole it was clearly more Tepecik-like than Barcin-like.

    CLOSEST GENETIC DISTANCES TO:

    Distance to: TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018
    0.05619294 Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.05848623 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8
    0.05896804 Cypriot:Cyprus24AJ19
    0.06036881 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
    0.06168936 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.06244073 Cypriot:CYP19
    0.06252732 Cypriot:CYP5
    0.06313818 Greek_Crete:Crete7
    0.06327482 Cypriot:CYP2
    0.06413110 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.06430862 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese4AQ115
    0.06436686 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5
    0.06456939 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3
    0.06503770 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2
    0.06521063 Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2501
    0.06524364 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.06542570 Greek_Central_Anatolia:G2503
    0.06572279 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos7
    0.06588541 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5
    0.06596438 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.06605272 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese10AR37
    0.06606180 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos9
    0.06612712 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.06636724 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos4
    0.06708272 Italian_Campania:NaN275IS
    0.06720562 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.06724789 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos10
    0.06786895 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote1
    0.06789378 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos2
    0.06795773 Italian_Campania:NaN77FAM
    0.06810467 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.06870596 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.06903087 Italian_Campania:CMP_b001_2
    0.06927208 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.06928037 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2

    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.07783184 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.08119204 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.08383588 Cypriot:Cyprus24AJ19
    0.08582248 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1763
    0.08620921 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.08649028 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.08656127 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1531
    0.08712490 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3
    0.08853001 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew4
    0.08875517 Moroccan_Jew:MoroccanJew5126
    0.08900950 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
    0.08911637 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9
    0.08916056 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.08935670 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
    0.08936558 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.08951174 Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118122
    0.08961138 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.08969244 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.08990144 Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.09009642 Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118128
    0.09022338 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.09026641 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2
    0.09092755 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5
    0.09177845 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew8
    0.09206306 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1170


    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.08161905 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.08203562 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.08647044 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.08689151 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3
    0.08918307 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.08985923 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.09022619 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.09058792 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1763
    0.09062833 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1531
    0.09073282 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew4
    0.09078542 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.09123784 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.09128026 Cypriot:Cyprus24AJ19
    0.09174334 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.09175816 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9
    0.09180596 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
    0.09195126 Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.09237083 Tunisian_Jew:TunisianJew1421
    0.09306355 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.09312719 Moroccan_Jew:MoroccanJew5126
    0.09317281 Sephardic_Jew:GRC12118097
    0.09330190 Italian_Campania:NaN65DFG
    0.09372744 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2
    0.09398185 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5
    0.09407079 Italian_Calabria:ALP582


    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.06612069 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.06752017 Cypriot:Cyprus24AJ19
    0.06864480 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.07016443 Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.07054681 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.07145201 Greek_Crete:Crete7
    0.07206077 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.07261529 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5
    0.07270155 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3
    0.07302899 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
    0.07310681 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.07324888 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.07340100 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.07348141 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.07378319 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.07380864 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote2
    0.07406104 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote5
    0.07479388 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.07512701 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.07524743 Cypriot:CYP2
    0.07565588 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos2
    0.07580079 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos8
    0.07600420 Lebanese_Christian:Lebanese4AQ115
    0.07602093 Italian_Abruzzo:ALP205
    0.07602826 Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_4


    Distance to: TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.07949427 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08027154 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08327072 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08692853 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08862466 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08985020 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.09127246 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.09159680 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09189573 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09197428 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.09209790 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.09300752 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.09425037 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.09527881 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.09528242 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.09608390 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09701064 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.09724506 Cypriot:Cyprus22AJ19
    0.09728082 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.09770383 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.09773373 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.09813541 Ashkenazi_Germany:Ashk_DE_DE_1
    0.09858622 Italian_Basilicata:PG25
    0.09866615 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew7
    0.09885649 Greek_Crete:Crete7


    Distance to: TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.07448993 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.07483299 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.07576479 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.07619072 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.07665219 Italian_Campania:CMP_b005_2
    0.07669434 Sicilian_East:EastSicilian2H
    0.07684932 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.07736460 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.07800805 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.07872851 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.07912070 Greek_Crete:Crete7
    0.07935267 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos1
    0.07947786 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.07956981 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.07985500 Italian_Campania:NaN46TC
    0.07998311 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew5
    0.08011884 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote3
    0.08058599 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.08059896 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9
    0.08072907 Greek_Kos:GreeceKos5
    0.08083146 Maltese:Malta15AM91
    0.08129719 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew4953
    0.08171840 Italian_Apulia:Pu7
    0.08187716 Italian_Calabria:ALP596
    0.08194836 Italian_Campania:NaN275IS

    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.07842168 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08064705 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08275450 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08387873 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08451324 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08631972 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.08993507 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09310765 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09375059 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.09512188 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09669250 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.11127426 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.11290561 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.11386614 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.11653179 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.11713637 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.11817232 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.11820644 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.11832132 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.11856837 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.11896434 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.11980303 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.12000111 French_Corsica:Corsica29708
    0.12001038 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.12029216 Italian_Basilicata:PG20


    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.08267126 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08561970 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08620401 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08665795 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08942567 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.09193371 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09339714 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09432365 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.09704821 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09770569 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.10703229 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.11552969 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.11824071 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.11880621 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.11967892 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.12005339 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.12157303 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.12296745 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.12334248 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.12344677 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.12461101 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.12463992 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.12501007 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.12572558 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.12615685 Italian_Basilicata:PG20


    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.08173157 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.08244882 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.08261927 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.08264346 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.08661107 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08998998 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.09033272 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.09172584 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.09334882 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09347792 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.10404224 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.10964629 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.11159682 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.11185453 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.11301952 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.11428321 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.11676057 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.11678322 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.11776283 French_Corsica:Corsica19508
    0.11788291 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.11858828 French_Corsica:CorsicaS29908
    0.11923746 Italian_Basilicata:PG20
    0.11978913 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.11997743 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.12023190 Italian_Basilicata:PG25


    Distance to: TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.07057967 Sardinian:HGDP00672
    0.07451939 Sardinian:HGDP00665
    0.07522570 Sardinian:HGDP01075
    0.07729441 Sardinian:HGDP01063
    0.07785505 Sardinian:HGDP01067
    0.08140553 Sardinian:HGDP01073
    0.08334604 Sardinian:HGDP01066
    0.08729519 Sardinian:HGDP01078
    0.08767246 Sardinian:HGDP00671
    0.08886065 Sardinian:S_Sardinian-2
    0.09164748 Sardinian:HGDP00674
    0.09791283 Italian_Campania:CMP_b007_2
    0.10156992 French_Corsica:CorsicaS10208
    0.10194984 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
    0.10250347 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew2
    0.10258455 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew3
    0.10286484 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
    0.10327320 Romaniote_Jew:Romaniote4
    0.10445641 Italian_Apulia:Pu3
    0.10469991 Sephardic_Jew:SephardicJew24276
    0.10482746 Italian_Calabria:ALP582
    0.10516255 French_Corsica:corsica1308
    0.10550685 Sephardic_Jew:sephardic14bul
    0.10555527 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew10
    0.10606162 Italian_Jew:ItalyJew9

    GENETIC DISTANCE: LEVANT VS. ANATOLIA

    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:BAJ001
    0.11467520 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.11596302 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.12337218 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.13064692 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.13099519 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.13152104 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.13864373 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.14137715 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.14802320 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.14802507 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.15121699 TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.15229100 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.15285341 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.15429851 TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018
    0.15471732 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.15620402 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.15631343 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.15878425 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.16030326 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.16035256 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.16047584 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.16098703 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.16224672 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.16260144 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.16294108 TUR_Barcin_N:I0709


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I0867
    0.08503868 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.08812055 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09477869 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.09566242 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.10648213 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10664054 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.10770789 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.10845840 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.11227904 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.11475981 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.11563090 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.11716518 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.11721502 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.11806050 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.12021710 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.12031092 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.12085351 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.12092333 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.12282823 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.12317659 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.12340227 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12375812 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.12414747 TUR_Barcin_N:I0723
    0.12604482 TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
    0.12762267 TUR_Barcin_N:I0744


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I1704
    0.08424608 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.08952674 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09265701 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.09887992 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.10350613 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10496203 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.10784249 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.11313852 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.11436927 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.11616284 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.11660952 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.12153944 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.12188064 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12265562 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.12321288 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.12327239 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.12352086 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.12369151 TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.12631843 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.12651497 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.12706754 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.12782611 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.12848199 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.12975291 TUR_Barcin_N:I1100
    0.12993585 TUR_Barcin_N:I0723


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I1707
    0.08824151 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.09088006 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09330426 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.10120114 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10764001 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.11323937 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.11432164 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.11517000 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.12008128 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.12026043 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.12593508 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.12743434 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.12892241 TUR_Kumtepe_N:kum6
    0.12971536 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.12976708 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.12992724 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.13021591 TUR_Buyukkaya_EC:CBT018
    0.13128965 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.13257008 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.13260941 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.13438090 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.13445362 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.13471279 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.13544604 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.13844636 TUR_Barcin_N:I1100


    Distance to: Levant_PPNB:I1710
    0.08183354 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD006
    0.08870011 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD003
    0.09032972 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD001
    0.09397471 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_EC:KRD004
    0.09507766 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep002
    0.09774276 TUR_Tell_Kurdu_MC:KRD002
    0.10031070 TUR_Barcin_N:I1098
    0.10058383 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep006
    0.10347375 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep003
    0.10400370 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N:Tep004
    0.10483433 TUR_Barcin_N:I1581
    0.10521050 TUR_Barcin_N:I1103
    0.10583914 TUR_Barcin_N:I1580
    0.10769646 TUR_Barcin_N:I0736
    0.10896576 TUR_Barcin_N:I1583
    0.11069886 TUR_Barcin_N:I1099
    0.11135791 TUR_Barcin_N:I0708
    0.11186268 TUR_Barcin_N:I0707
    0.11204973 TUR_Barcin_N:I1101
    0.11209743 TUR_Barcin_N:I1097
    0.11427244 TUR_Barcin_N:I0724
    0.11526345 TUR_Barcin_N:I0723
    0.11565291 TUR_Barcin_N:I1102
    0.11592432 TUR_Barcin_N:I0745
    0.11752732 TUR_Barcin_N:I0744

    nice
    nice to see the short distance of some of those ancients to italian jews
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tepecik-%C3%87iftlik
    known ancestery:
    sefhardi / aschenazi/ mizrahi / bulgarian

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