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Thread: Population history from the Neolithic to present on the Mediterranean island of Sardi

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    Quote Originally Posted by berun View Post
    moreover in K4 some Nuraghe samples display 10% blue (Iran NEO)
    Where do you have that info from? They never report admixture proportions with individual labels (unfortunately). There are a few slightly "Eastern" individuals, but we don't know if it is them (they seem to be sorted by admixture fraction, not age).

    Their PCA dots are also quite in one close place. Paired with really low F_ST between Nuragic and Neolithic Sardinians would imply demographic continuity (with possible immigration from genetically similar EEF sources).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    archaeology suggest the coming of intrusive people between neolithic and nuragic...the monte claro culture and beaker/bonnanaro, but maybe they are "invisible" due to the fact that they were of the same stock of the native (EEF+Whg)

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    five nuragics are j2b2-l283 (4 in this study and 1 in Fernandes et al), eastern/steppe lineage ?

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    If the Romans were circa 20% steppe and considering that nuragics had none then modern Sardinians with about 10% steppe (Fernandes et al) are about 50% Italic/Romans
    This could explain why the Sardinian languages is the most similar to Latin according with some sources
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    If the Romans were circa 20% steppe and considering that nuragics had none then modern Sardinians with about 10% steppe (Fernandes et al) are about 50% Italic/Romans
    This could explain why the Sardinian languages is the most similar to Latin according with some sources
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    Which sources?

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    Important updates. Quoting Trojet:

    "The three J2b-L283's from the Nuragic culture, all dated to the Late Bronze Age, are as follows:


    ORC003 is J-L283+ Z627+ YP157+ Z585-
    ORC007 is J-L283+ YP157 NC Z585- Z615-
    ORC008 is J-L283+ Z627+ YP157 NC Z615-


    So ORC003 is surely J-YP157. The other two have no calls for J-YP157 clade, but most likely they belong there as well considering they are negative for Z585 and Z615. Not surprising here. Considering its distribution, J-YP157 subclade would've probably been my first choice to appear in ancient Sardinia:

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-YP157/ "
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Important updates. Quoting Trojet:

    "
    Also quoting Trojet:

    "After the Alsace and the Norway samples which are upstream, and since we have no J-L283 in Sardinia pre Bronze Age, I honestly think they likely made it to Sardinia through continental Europe (maybe NW Balkans>Italy>Sardinia).


    Also, as I posted elsewhere, recently an Armenian BigY splits the J-L283 node! He is negative for 7 L283 SNPs, among them Z622 and Z577. If we assume current J-L283 TMRCA at 5400 ybp, the Armenian should split at ~6000 ybp. This suggests that J-L283>Z622, where the two European branches stem from, migrated en masse from further east sometime between 6000-4400 ybp (J-Z597 TMRCA).


    I think the Sardinian branches likely represent some MBA migration that contained various clades and that got isolated there. I guess investigating the origin of the Nuragic culture should give us a clue.."

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    We can now say pretty confidently that the Sherden Sea Peoples were probably same J-L283 as these Nuragic people. See image:



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    I also noticed some cultural similarities between the Nuragics and bronze age Armenian kurgan finds. See image:


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    There is without a doubt a cultural connection between these artefacts. They are made in a similar way, and both depict the totemic animals, especially deers but also goats, at the front of the chariot/boat. These finds are a bit later than the 6000-4400 ybp window though, but point to a common mythology or belief system.


    This is a bit more speculative but supports your migration route through continental Europe. See image:





    This is a find from the Glasinac Culture in around the Illyrian coast.


    The birds from the bronze age Glasinac cult chariot resemble very closely the totemic bird that is depicted atop the top left Nuragic boat statue, and the composition is also similar.


    I think there is a cultural relation.


    Glasinac I culture supposedly begins around 1800BC, around the same time as beginning of Nuragic, and is associated with the Autariatae tribe. It also fits the J-L283 found in the Illyrian coast in Mathieson paper.


    A further remark. This type of Deer totem was also used as a chariot ornament by the Hittites. See image:


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    And the amazing Y-dna evidence for a mba-lba migration from europe into sardinia quoting Trojet:

    "For the migration, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania."


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/

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    Armenians seem to have a tradition of sacrificing Deers and Doves/Pigeons. This is very speculative but it could possibly be of the same religious substrate that we see in the deer and birds in those bronze figures.

    "Throughout the day, doves and deer would be sacrificed in the name of the gods. Usually the horns of the deer were painted colorfully. There also was set up a big bonfire at nighttime where kids and young adults would try to jump over and around it to scare and drive away bad spirits. The celebrating people would bring their first set of harvest of the year to share with others.

    Horseback riding races were done, as well as deer racing. The let go hundreds of doves into the air for good luck. Dancing, singing, intellectual and athletic competitive games were a big part of the celebrations, where competitors would try to impress the ones they admire in the audience."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navasard?oldformat=true

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    Population history from the Neolithic to present on the Mediterranean island of Sardi

    I really want to know the origin of these patterns, it looks kinda celtic, but i would love if the devs told where they got this idea from. I want a tattoo on my arm so i'm looking for some patterns on the internet and this one really caught my eye.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    there are more bots in this forum than posters
    "What I've seen so far after my entire career chasing Indoeuropeans is that our solutions look tissue thin and our problems still look monumental" J.P.Mallory

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    It's a big holiday week here, buddy, and people have families and lives, unlike on some other sites, which are full of paid up members of various nationalist groups or total losers who do nothing but sit in their mothers' basements and obsess on this stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    modern Sardinians have really a lot of Roman/Italian admixture ("Northern Mediterranean"), it's a surprise for me

    In any case very few steppe admixture circa 1-3% began to appear in the EBA (page 11) as suggested by archaeology (Bell Beaker, Polada-like Bonnanaro culture)

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    not a lot, in fact the y dna (patternal descend ) of sardininas is 40% hg I (bronce age), 20% hg R1b (iron age) in italy overall are I 10% r1b 40%. this makes a huge difference, taking in mind that are samples of more than 1000 males.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    And the amazing Y-dna evidence for a mba-lba migration from europe into sardinia quoting Trojet:

    "For the migration, we may have evidence in the J-Y21045 branch. It splits right at ~1900 BC: One subbranch defined by J-YP9 in Sardinia, while its "brother" J-Z38300 mostly in North Albania."


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21045/
    the only plausible place of origin of these immigrants is north central italy, from Tuscany in particular Asciano facies is similar to Bonnanaro material culture

    I think that further researchs will find even some R1b M269 in Bronze Age Sardinia...same "dinaric" skulls as those found in mainland Europe appeared with the Bell Beakers

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    error.....
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    error.....
    Could you provide a link to the source, Cato, I'm having a hard time reading the legend. Thanks in advance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Could you provide a link to the source, Cato, I'm having a hard time reading the legend. Thanks in advance.
    Grugni et al 2019

    https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/20/22/5763/htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    the only plausible place of origin of these immigrants is north central italy, from Tuscany in particular Asciano facies is similar to Bonnanaro material culture

    I think that further researchs will find even some R1b M269 in Bronze Age Sardinia...same "dinaric" skulls as those found in mainland Europe appeared with the Bell Beakers

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    the R-V88 is very old ...........some scholars in the past ( a few years ago ) state its travel is as follows
    south-caucasus - levant- egypt ....then splits .....one line to cameroon and other along north african coast to tunisia .....then to Sardinia from there
    Fathers mtdna T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna T1a1e
    Sons mtdna K1a4o
    Mum paternal line R1b-S8172
    Grandmum paternal side I1d1-P109
    Wife paternal line R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the R-V88 is very old ...........some scholars in the past ( a few years ago ) state its travel is as follows
    south-caucasus - levant- egypt ....then splits .....one line to cameroon and other along north african coast to tunisia .....then to Sardinia from there
    I have no idea where you got that. It's a complete misunderstanding of the genetics as the papers have shown.

    R1b-V88 is a WHG y line. It got to Africa from Europe, via the Near East, not the opposite

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I have no idea where you got that. It's a complete misunderstanding of the genetics as the papers have shown.

    R1b-V88 is a WHG y line. It got to Africa from Europe, via the Near East, not the opposite
    From an academia paper by smith about 3 years ago...i was chasing T1a-pages0011 which followed R-V88

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    From an academia paper by smith about 3 years ago...i was chasing T1a-pages0011 which followed R-V88
    As I said, you've completely misunderstood. Look up recent papers which discuss R-V88 in a genetics context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, you've completely misunderstood. Look up recent papers which discuss R-V88 in a genetics context.
    See:
    http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/r-v88/

    The link to the paper on the peopling of the Green Sahara is there. It's absolutely clear that Sardinian V88 is basal to the African varieties.

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