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Thread: Population history from the Neolithic to present on the Mediterranean island of Sardi

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    See:
    http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/r-v88/
    The link to the paper on the peopling of the Green Sahara is there. It's absolutely clear that Sardinian V88 is basal to the African varieties.
    I think it is pretty obvious. The V88 or the V2219 pré-V88 lived as HG in the Danube Gorge.
    They came along with the Cardium ware farmers and the LBK farmers, but the LBK farmer branch of V88 got extinct.
    The only V88 branch surviving today is the one that came with the Cardium ware farmers

    Check
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V2219/
    R-Y8451 is the branch that got into the Green Sahara, it's TMRCA is 7,6 ka, the exact time the Green Sahara recovered from the 8,2 ka climate event
    at that time there was a river flowing from lake Chad to the Mediterranean

    the most likely route R-Y8451 took was upstream that river, and maybe they came from Sicily while R-M18 moved further into Sardegna and Y7777* into Iberia (Els Trocs was V88)
    we also know that the first farmers in the British Isles did have a link with Iberia, hence Y7777* in GBR

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    they have added other samples in the final paper from 1000 bc to the medieval period..the first R1b M269 was found in a punic context, probably a nuragic man (?)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    the only plausible place of origin of these immigrants is north central italy, from Tuscany in particular Asciano facies is similar to Bonnanaro material culture

    I think that further researchs will find even some R1b M269 in Bronze Age Sardinia...same "dinaric" skulls as those found in mainland Europe appeared with the Bell Beakers

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    It is undeniable that between Neolithic and Bronze there are many contacts between Sardinia and Tuscany. The access route to Sardinia were the islands of the Tuscan archipelago leading to Corsica and from Corsica to Sardinia. Then certainly the phenomenon of the Bell Beaker that characterized in particular northern Italy has extensions up to the border between Liguria and north-west Tuscany, and then also in other areas of Tuscany that then will be typically Etruscan.

    The presence of J2b2a-L283 between the Etruscans and the Nuragics confirms, in my opinion, the important relations over the centuries between the two areas. The differentiation occurs more with the final Bronze Age when in Etruria the proto-Villanovan arrives and is instead absent in Sardinia.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Grugni et al 2019

    https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/20/22/5763/htm

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    This paper is full of mistakes, Cato, and like all papers based on modern samples it is full of unproven conclusions. The skills of the geneticists of the University of Pavia are really poor, as they have repeatedly demonstrated.

    For example, there is no sample from Pisa, it is always the same sample of 113 individuals from Volterra (which is located in the province of Pisa), analyzed by both Grugni and Di Cristofaro, but the latter analyzed less deeply the Y-DNA and labelled it as from Pisa, so we're at the paradox that the same sample gives different results. The very serious thing, and this reveals how Grugni is not very credible, is that she considers it two separate samples in the analysis when in reality they are the same sample. Modern Tuscan samples in this paper are the usual three that have been analyzed for at least 15 years: Volterra (Pisa), Casentino (Arezzo) and Murlo (Siena).


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    http://www.razib.com/wordpress/category/r-v88/

    The link to the paper on the peopling of the Green Sahara is there. It's absolutely clear that Sardinian V88 is basal to the African varieties.


    Indeed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post

    In any case very few steppe admixture circa 1-3% began to appear in the EBA (page 11) as suggested by archaeology (Bell Beaker, Polada-like Bonnanaro culture)

    It is very likely that early steppe admixture arrived in the EBA but perhaps it was only due to sporadic arrivals, and does not imply that the IE language speakers who are later known as Latino-Falisci and Osco-Umbri also arrived so soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    It is undeniable that between Neolithic and Bronze there are many contacts between Sardinia and Tuscany. The access route to Sardinia were the islands of the Tuscan archipelago leading to Corsica and from Corsica to Sardinia. Then certainly the phenomenon of the Bell Beaker that characterized in particular northern Italy has extensions up to the border between Liguria and north-west Tuscany, and then also in other areas of Tuscany that then will be typically Etruscan.

    The presence of J2b2a-L283 between the Etruscans and the Nuragics confirms, in my opinion, the important relations over the centuries between the two areas. The differentiation occurs more with the final Bronze Age when in Etruria the proto-Villanovan arrives and is instead absent in Sardinia.





    This paper is full of mistakes, Cato, and like all papers based on modern samples it is full of unproven conclusions. The skills of the geneticists of the University of Pavia are really poor, as they have repeatedly demonstrated.

    For example, there is no sample from Pisa, it is always the same sample of 113 individuals from Volterra (which is located in the province of Pisa), analyzed by both Grugni and Di Cristofaro, but the latter analyzed less deeply the Y-DNA and labelled it as from Pisa, so we're at the paradox that the same sample gives different results. The very serious thing, and this reveals how Grugni is not very credible, is that she considers it two separate samples in the analysis when in reality they are the same sample. Modern Tuscan samples in this paper are the usual three that have been analyzed for at least 15 years: Volterra (Pisa), Casentino (Arezzo) and Murlo (Siena).




    Indeed.
    clearly the passage in ancient times of sardinian to Tuscany was via Corsica .................why is corsica always left out when it is the closest island

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    clearly the passage in ancient times of sardinian to Tuscany was via Corsica .................why is corsica always left out when it is the closest island
    Torzio, Corsica is never left out. In texts that reconstruct prehistory is often mentioned.

    In Corsica during the Bronze Age this interesting facies, the Torrean culture, is documented.

    Torrean culture has relations with both Sardinia, northern Italy and central Italy.

    Torzio, do not take seriously what is written on the wikipedia page that many are simply unsourced fantasies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrean_civilization

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post

    The presence of J2b2a-L283 between the Etruscans and the Nuragics confirms, in my opinion, the important relations over the centuries between the two areas. The differentiation occurs more with the final Bronze Age when in Etruria the proto-Villanovan arrives and is instead
    i agree, it would be interesting to know how and when J2a L283 arrived in Tuscany and Italy in general

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    i agree, it would be interesting to know how and when J2a L283 arrived in Tuscany and Italy in general

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    J2b2-L283 was found in an Etruscan necropolis in Civitavecchia, so it is Lazio not Tuscany, so it arrived in an area larger than modern Tuscany.

    Hard to tell when J2b2-L283 arrived. J2b2-L283 today can be found a bit all over Italy, even in the north-west of Italy. If I remember correctly TMRCA estimated by Yfull is 5700 ybp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Torzio, Corsica is never left out. In texts that reconstruct prehistory is often mentioned.

    In Corsica during the Bronze Age this interesting facies, the Torrean culture, is documented.

    Torrean culture has relations with both Sardinia, northern Italy and central Italy.

    Torzio, do not take seriously what is written on the wikipedia page that many are simply unsourced fantasies.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrean_civilization
    I never take what is written , but always confirm with the links to other papers at bottom of the wiki page and then conclude info from there

    is that J marker in this paper ?
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    clearly the passage in ancient times of sardinian to Tuscany was via Corsica .................why is corsica always left out when it is the closest island
    Corsica has not Bell Beakers so it was probably bypassed in that period. However in the EBA the material culture was similiar to that of Polada and Bonnanaro culture

    According to some Radiocarbon date the Torri of Corsica predate the Nuraghe of Sardinia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Corsica has not Bell Beakers so it was probably bypassed in that period. However in the EBA the material culture was similiar to that of Polada and Bonnanaro culture

    According to some Radiocarbon date the Torri of Corsica predate the Nuraghe of Sardinia

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    you sure?

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar...l.pone.0200641

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    As far as i know we have only a Beaker fragment in the South of Corsica

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    Corsica has not Bell Beakers so it was probably bypassed in that period. However in the EBA the material culture was similiar to that of Polada and Bonnanaro culture

    According to some Radiocarbon date the Torri of Corsica predate the Nuraghe of Sardinia

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    In fact, I believe that Bell Beaker findings are more recently also documented in Corsica, although Corsica is still lacking compared to Sardinia and Tuscany.


    J. Cesari, Découverte d'un tesson campaniforme en Corse du Sud, «BSSHNC» 659, 1991, pp. 31-38


    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post

    How does Di Cristofaro's paper prove what Cato said was wrong? A disappointing paper based on the usual speculation with modern samples.

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