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Thread: 10/25 R1b-V88 in ancient Sardinia

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    Surely Songhai-Saharian must be quite young, and a result of the population movements that actually settled the regions in question. Where do autosomally Niger-Congo and Nilo-Saharan populations come from? I would think that if Green Sahara pastoralists had been involved in the population histories of those places to a significant degree Central Africa would have become genetically Berber-like.

    I don't know what kind of T it is - I'm aware of the diversity argument, but how strong is it? For instance, basal R1b/R1a tend to show up in weird places. What do you think about the phylogeny in Trombetta having NE African and European basal to the rest? Middle Eastern samples are not included unfortunately.

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    IMO the proto Nilo-Saharans were A-M13, TMRCA 11.1 ka

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    Do anyone have a full list of RV88 lineages?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Govan View Post
    What is Gajigana?.



    I have two hypothesis for RV88.

    Scenario 1 : EEF people in the Maghreb (yeah because there is alot of EEF ancestry in Africa #Iamnotanignorantanymore) received two Afro-Asiatic languages (Berber AND Chadic).
    Those North African Chadic speakers carrying a good chunk of RV88 and moved down the Green Sahara.

    Scenario 2 : Proto-Chadic received RV88 from an Eastern migration i.e Neoltihic Levant.

    I am so uneasy with that Arab theory. Arabs without any J1 input? Freaky weird. It's a 3rd scenario but uneasy really.

    Fully agree, the Arab theory seems completely weird and not supported by any substantial evidence. Too little J1 almost everywhere, too deep coalescence times, and one would need bottle neck effects in a short amount of time in pretty much every Central African population, and in the same direction.

    I think Scenario 2 has the problem that Neolithic and later Levant aDNA individuals have not brought up R1b-V88; whereas Neolithic Western Mediterranean definitely had it in substantial frequency (as this Sardinian paper and Els Trocs man show, and they even have the right branch: V2197).

    So Scenario 1 is more likely based on the evidence, but there is no smoking gun which definitely settles the question.

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    Could be ancient Europeans who settled on the shores of Libya and moved south during the Neolithic period. This would be my guess. I keep hearing "west Mediterranean" mentioned, but they aren't really west Mediterranean, as all the ancient Mediterranean V88 finds are within Cardial range. The origin of the Sardinian type probably went Balkans > Sardinia > NE Spain (all Cardial)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1981 View Post
    Could be ancient Europeans who settled on the shores of Libya and moved south during the Neolithic period. This would be my guess. I keep hearing "west Mediterranean" mentioned, but they aren't really west Mediterranean, as all the ancient Mediterranean V88 finds are within Cardial range. The origin of the Sardinian type probably went Balkans > Sardinia > NE Spain (all Cardial)
    Good observations. I think "Western Mediterranean Early European Farmer" is now mostly used as synonym with the Impressed Ware/Cardial/Epicardial branch of EEF (in contrast to the "Danubian" route of EEF which is archeologically and genetically quite different) - to avoid naming this whole branch after a more "local" archeological pottery style. Some archeologists define "Cardial" pretty narrowly (excluding the Adriatic coasts), and one does not want to step on their toes.

    "Mediterranean" makes somewhat sense as it is believed (based on Radiocarbon dates) that a rapid coastal expansion around 5500 BC with help of seafaring was involved.

    And yep, that's one plausible route of R1b-V88 and it would be also my guess if you press me. But let's see how well this hypothesis holds up!

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