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Thread: Bronze Age Vucedol Culture R1b Z2103 / L23

  1. #26
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    I also get Bergamo but not as much as you.
    I look Eastwards to find the Puglia-Illyria connection in my results.
    Besides North-East Italy, are you saying that Bergamo has a connection with the Illyrians too?
    Well, bergamo was under the Rhaetic people, neighbours of venetic and illyrians
    oderzo and trieste are known illyrian cities before becoming venetic
    illyrians and celts created halstatt culture
    so, there could be some neighborly union
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    is this admixture correct as it states SW ( south West ) or do they mean SE
    .
    mine below
    puntDNAL K13 Oracle
    Admix Results (sorted):
    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 40.21
    2 NE_Europe 31.47
    3 West_Asia 15.60
    4 SW_Asia 8.21
    5 NE_Asia 1.68
    6 South_Asia 1.20
    7 West_Africa 1.10
    Finished reading population data. 191 populations found.
    13 components mode.
    --------------------------------
    Least-squares method.
    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Italian_Bergamo @ 5.380587
    2 Macedonian @ 5.615315
    3 Italian_Tuscan @ 6.227891
    4 Bulgarian @ 6.515718
    5 Kosovar @ 7.404111
    6 Albanian @ 7.734768
    7 Montenegrin @ 8.686404
    8 Greek_Thessaly @ 8.695016
    9 Romanian @ 9.424124
    10 Serbian @ 9.521023
    11 Spaniard @ 10.405109
    12 French @ 13.239509
    13 Bosnian @ 13.569337
    14 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.127935
    15 Croatian @ 14.418421
    16 Greek_Central @ 14.897999
    17 German_South @ 16.106207
    18 Moldavian @ 16.144953
    19 Belgian @ 16.758413
    20 Hungarian @ 17.273235
    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Bulgarian +50% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.879009
    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Italian_Bergamo +25% French_Basque +25% Romanian @ 2.411094
    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
    1 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri + Utahn_European @ 1.902782
    2 French_Basque + Hungarian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.002598
    3 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish + Utahn_European @ 2.003595
    4 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.010896
    5 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.016394
    6 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.043981
    7 Croatian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.045027
    8 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.058331
    9 Azerbaijan_Azeri + Belgian + French_Basque + Spaniard @ 2.067628
    10 French_Basque + Slovene + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.069413
    11 French_Basque + Hungarian + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.078355
    12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Slovene + Turkish @ 2.124298
    13 French + French_Basque + Macedonian + Turkish @ 2.145992
    14 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.150871
    15 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.156808
    16 French_Basque + Irish + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.157369
    17 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.162531
    18 Belgian + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.173811
    19 English + French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish @ 2.182699
    20 German_South + Spaniard + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.183275
    Thank you by the reply Sile :)

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    I'm not sure we can be too specific about Vucedol, as its DNA seems recently-mixed and diverse, both autosomally and in terms of its yDNA lineages. When it is so mixed, it is difficult to track where the bulk of its descendants might have ended up.

    Its Z2103 sample I3499 looks atypical of Z2103, and more like a cross between Central European Bell Beaker and North Iberian; but I see no signs in it of Yamnayan descent, nor of it being ancestral to Bell Beaker. However, samples around it do look either Yamnayan or undiluted EEF.

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    Ethnic group
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    This one is mine. I have much less W- Asia than the others. Does it mean that I am more Neolithic and I have very little or nothing of Yanamama? I am always 4, 5 or more away and my parents are from the same town.

    puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:


    puntDNAL K13 Oracle

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 SW_Europe 46.76
    2 NE_Europe 32.8
    3 West_Asia 7.54
    4 SW_Asia 6.1
    5 South_Asia 1.27
    6 NE_Asia 1.24
    7 East_Africa 1.09
    8 Siberia 0.99
    9 West_Africa 0.9
    10 South_Africa 0.77
    11 Oceania 0.29
    12 SE_Asia 0.27

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Spaniard 4.46
    2 Italian_Bergamo 7.89
    3 French_Basque 9.73
    4 French 11.28
    5 Italian_Tuscan 13.41
    6 Macedonian 14.12
    7 Belgian 15.02
    8 Bulgarian 15.28
    9 Serbian 15.29
    10 German_South 15.4
    11 Kosovar 16.02
    12 Montenegrin 16.07
    13 Albanian 16.08
    14 Croatian 16.61
    15 Greek_Thessaly 16.94
    16 Romanian 17.27
    17 Bosnian 17.54
    18 English 17.72
    19 Hungarian 18.45
    20 Scottish 18.84

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 83.9% French_Basque + 16.1% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 3.27
    2 81.1% French_Basque + 18.9% Nogay @ 3.39
    3 80.1% French_Basque + 19.9% Turkish_Aydin @ 3.41
    4 83.6% French_Basque + 16.4% Tadjik @ 3.68
    5 97% Spaniard + 3% Oroqen @ 3.74
    6 97.1% Spaniard + 2.9% Daur @ 3.77
    7 96.9% Spaniard + 3.1% Burmese @ 3.77
    8 97.2% Spaniard + 2.8% Xibo @ 3.77
    9 97.3% Spaniard + 2.7% Bulala @ 3.78
    10 97.1% Spaniard + 2.9% Hadza @ 3.79
    11 97.3% Spaniard + 2.7% Naxi @ 3.8
    12 96.8% Spaniard + 3.2% Mongolian @ 3.83
    13 97.5% Spaniard + 2.5% Anuak @ 3.83
    14 97.5% Spaniard + 2.5% Sudanese_South @ 3.84
    15 96.9% Spaniard + 3.1% Thai @ 3.84
    16 97.6% Spaniard + 2.4% Dinka @ 3.84
    17 97.5% Spaniard + 2.5% Korean @ 3.85
    18 97.5% Spaniard + 2.5% Han_North_China @ 3.85
    19 97.6% Spaniard + 2.4% Japanese @ 3.85
    20 97.6% Spaniard + 2.4% Biaka_Pygmy @ 3.85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    No, it is likely, doesn't have to be Greeks, but a EEF source.

    The same way it happened to Iberia, almost completely replaced by Yamnaya R1b, yet largely EEF in admixture.

    North Albanians have less Near Eastern admixture than South Albanians. It goes like a gradual line, increasing the more south.
    I thought this would be common knowledge by now, but the 'Balkanic' populations are defined by their divergence towards the Caucasus/Iran. EEF admixture doesn't suffice - the LBA/IA samples look Iberian because they don't have extra CHG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    Well, bergamo was under the Rhaetic people, neighbours of venetic and illyrians
    oderzo and trieste are known illyrian cities before becoming venetic
    illyrians and celts created halstatt culture
    so, there could be some neighborly union
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient:


    puntDNAL K10 Ancient:


    I'm not that mixed, on k13 p-dnal I get 5 Anc., you get 7, Carlos get 12.

  7. #32
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    Ethnic group
    España
    Country: Spain



    ^^
    I thought my parents were more sedentary. You and the rest get higher in W-Asia, me lower. What town or ethnic group does W-Asia represent?
    puntDNAL K12 Ancient Oracle

    1 Alberstedt_LN_I0118 15.95
    2 Nordic_LN_SG_RISE97 17.39
    3 Vatya_SG_RISE479 17.92
    4 Halberstadt_LBA_I0099 18.2
    5 Hungary_BA_I1502 18.22
    6 Unetice_EBA_I0117 18.49
    7 Hungary_CA_I1497 19.15
    8 Iceman_MN_SG 20.02
    9 Bell_Beaker_Czech_RISE569 20.73
    10 BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN_I0059 21.16
    11 Bell_Beaker_Germany_I1549 21.42
    12 Epserstedt_MN_I0172 21.43
    13 Baalberge_MN_I0560 21.49
    14 Hungary_EN_I0495 21.69
    15 Iberia_M_ I0406 21.91
    16 BattleAxe_Sweden_SG_RISE94 22.99
    17 Iberia_EN_I0412 23.64
    18 Iberia_Chalcolithic_I0300 24.44
    19 Potapovka_I0419 24.84
    20 LBK_EN_I0054 25.14

    puntDNAL K10 Ancient
    1 Italian_North 4.32
    2 Spanish_Southwest 7.03
    3 Tuscan 7.72
    4 Italian_South 7.91
    5 Spanish_Northeast 8.59
    6 Albanian 9.2
    7 French 10.05
    8 Bulgarian 10.08
    9 Greek 10.33
    10 German_South 14.27
    11 Sicilian 14.31
    12 Croatian 15.05
    13 Ashkenazi_Jew 16.43
    14 Utahn_white 16.91
    15 Hungarian 17.21
    16 Irish 18.22
    17 English_South 18.82
    18 Basque_Spanish 19.53
    19 Czech 20.47
    20 German_North 20.72

  8. #33
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Generally:
    West Asia = Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Iran, Iraq, and the Caucasus.
    Caucasus = Located between the Black and Caspian Seas. Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia.

  9. #34
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Since the Gedmatch was on I took advantage of it and I made a total Gedrosia for the same price and it is very decorative.

    gedrosia K6 Oracle


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 42.16
    2 Natufian 39.25
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 15.23
    4 Sub_Saharan 2.57

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Spanish @ 3.253918
    2 French @ 3.536413
    3 Croatian @ 4.155406
    4 Hungarian @ 4.755836
    5 English @ 6.161438
    6 Romanian @ 6.428096
    7 Czech @ 6.509709
    8 Scottish @ 7.430361
    9 Ukrainian @ 8.017553
    10 Bulgarian @ 8.058025
    11 Basque @ 8.199252
    12 Norwegian @ 8.529338
    13 Icelandic @ 9.744299
    14 Europe_LNBA @ 10.917182
    15 Albanian @ 11.921358
    16 Estonian @ 13.026413
    17 Lithuanian @ 13.567991
    18 Greek @ 13.771868
    19 Sardinian @ 14.285989
    20 Russian @ 14.887043

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Hungarian +50% Spanish @ 1.903018


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Italian_South +25% Palestinian +25% WHG @ 1.049433


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++
    1 Albanian + Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Palestinian @ 0.825008
    2 Albanian + Cypriot + Palestinian + WHG @ 0.825008



  10. #35
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    @Carlos
    Gedrosia 6 4 pop. (don’t laugh, LOL)


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    I heard somewhere that it doesn't make sense to use a Gedrosia calculator as an European because they are meant to be used by people from Greater Iran or India. Obviously the calculator gonna take the closest population between modern Gedrosia component and your Europeans component. I tried once, i had mostly Armenian and Caucasus ancestry. It skewed the results no?

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    The J2b2 sample of Croatia_EMBA is a Coastal sample, wich somehow makes sense with the Maritime CHG introgression in BA Mediterranean Sea that start to showing up in recent papers. While the Vucedol Z2103 sample is far inland in the Pannonian Plain, wich matches a Steppe or beyond-Tisza origin. Why modern Albanians have so much J2b ( 20%? ) and where is it found in Albania? Coast, Mountains or everywhere? As why the J2b2 Croatia_EMBA have a lot of Steppe ancestry, is the biggest mistery.

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    I ran some autosomal optimal fit calculations over modern Albanians.

    As you would expect, this yields a mix of many ancient populations - but with the major 'contributors' estimated as Vucedol and El Portalon.

    Vucedol and El Portalon are also good fits for each other, both seem to have early Steppe influences, and both have R1b-M269.

    I would hypothesise that Vucedol represents either a retreat point for some of the earliest (4th millennium BC) steppic migrators into Western Europe or an early staging point from which the earliest steppic migrators moved into Western Europe in the 4th millennium BC. It also looks like these people admixed there with Yamnayan-like invaders from the Southern Steppe/Western Caucasus, and later spread southwards.

    The other significant (although less significant) contributor to modern Albanians (and other Adriatic populations) looks to be Levantine DNA. I'm not sure what this represents or how it got there, but the bulk of it doesn't appear to be from Vucedol.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    I heard somewhere that it doesn't make sense to use a Gedrosia calculator as an European because they are meant to be used by people from Greater Iran or India. Obviously the calculator gonna take the closest population between modern Gedrosia component and your Europeans component. I tried once, i had mostly Armenian and Caucasus ancestry. It skewed the results no?
    Edit: Wait i redo it. And it gived me this:


    1 Natufian 41.35
    2 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 40.25
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.40

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Albanian +50% English @ 1.189248


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Basque +25% Georgian +25% Icelandic @ 1.066368


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Croatian + English + French + Italian_South @ 1.059244

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Edit: Wait i redo it. And it gived me this:


    1 Natufian 41.35
    2 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 40.25
    3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 18.40

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Albanian +50% English @ 1.189248


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Basque +25% Georgian +25% Icelandic @ 1.066368


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 Croatian + English + French + Italian_South @ 1.059244
    Ancient Eurasia K6 4-Ancestors Oracle - gedrosia K6 Oracle transforms me in a Sephardic Jew.
    Not bad :)


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% Jew_Moroccan +25% Motala12 +25% Saharawi @ 0.815850


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
    1 Jew_Libyan + Jew_Moroccan + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.459937
    2 Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Tunisian + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.527387
    3 Jew_Libyan + Jew_Moroccan + Saharawi + SHG @ 0.629628
    4 Hungarian_KO1 + Jew_Iranian + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan @ 0.753386
    5 Jew_Iranian + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan + WHG @ 0.753386
    6 Hungarian_KO1 + Jew_iraqi + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan @ 0.753880
    7 Jew_iraqi + Jew_Libyan + Moroccan + WHG @ 0.753880
    8 Armenia_ChL + Hungarian_KO1 + Jew_Yemenite + Saharawi @ 0.771465
    9 Armenia_ChL + Jew_Yemenite + Saharawi + WHG @ 0.771465
    10 Algerian + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Libyan + SHG @ 0.773988
    11 Jew_Libyan + Jew_Tunisian + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.779528
    12 Albanian + Motala12 + Saharawi + Saudi @ 0.782932
    13 Armenia_ChL + Hungarian_KO1 + Saharawi + Saudi @ 0.790886
    14 Armenia_ChL + Saharawi + Saudi + WHG @ 0.790886
    15 Jew_Moroccan + Jew_Moroccan + Motala12 + Saharawi @ 0.815850
    16 Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Jordanian + Moroccan @ 0.816294
    17 Cypriot + Jordanian + Moroccan + WHG @ 0.816294
    18 Cypriot + Hungarian_KO1 + Moroccan + Palestinian @ 0.831467
    19 Cypriot + Moroccan + Palestinian + WHG @ 0.831467
    20 Algerian + Jew_Libyan + Jew_Tunisian + Motala12 @ 0.842786

  16. #41
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    Anyway, i think for Europeans with not known foreign ancestry, it's best to just use K13 and K15. The Gedrosia calculator just saying that i'm basically EEF and WHG in majority with a little bit of Steppe/CHG. But why is EEF represented with Natufian dont sound accurate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Anyway, i think for Europeans with not known foreign ancestry, it's best to just use K13 and K15. The Gedrosia calculator just saying that i'm basically EEF and WHG in majority with a little bit of Steppe/CHG. But why is EEF represented with Natufian dont sound accurate.
    Thanks by reply halfalp. Have a nice weekend:)
    PS: You're right about the Gedrosia project of GEDmatch. See below:

    GedrosiaDNA
    This project focuses primarily Eurasian (especially Indian and Asian) and ancient DNA. There is no website, but for further questions, please contact the creator at [email protected]
    Last edited by Duarte; 31-03-19 at 00:26. Reason: Post scriptum added.

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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    The J2b2 sample of Croatia_EMBA is a Coastal sample, wich somehow makes sense with the Maritime CHG introgression in BA Mediterranean Sea that start to showing up in recent papers. While the Vucedol Z2103 sample is far inland in the Pannonian Plain, wich matches a Steppe or beyond-Tisza origin. Why modern Albanians have so much J2b ( 20%? ) and where is it found in Albania? Coast, Mountains or everywhere? As why the J2b2 Croatia_EMBA have a lot of Steppe ancestry, is the biggest mistery.
    The Ancient J2b2 sample is from the hinterlands, mountains near the coast.

    J2b2 peaks in north Albanians(Ghegs), with frequencies varying between 20-30%. Some Albanian regions up there contain as much as 35%.

    West Balkan South Slavics barely have any of it, I think Croats have 3-5% at most.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Carlos
    Gedrosia 6 4 pop. (don’t laugh, LOL)

    Whether in one part, or divided into two, three or four parts, all parts will always be from South Italy. This is what I call ethnic purity. LOL.
    Big hug dear friend Salento :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fatherland View Post
    The Ancient J2b2 sample is from the hinterlands, mountains near the coast.

    J2b2 peaks in north Albanians(Ghegs), with frequencies varying between 20-30%. Some Albanian regions up there contain as much as 35%.

    West Balkan South Slavics barely have any of it, I think Croats have 3-5% at most.
    I rewatched the map, and yes it's in the other side of those coastal mounts. But i feel Coastal roads makes still more sense than any Continental road. Like, from North Caucasus to Sardinia by Lands? Funny thing, J2b both in North Caucasus and in Sardinia, seems linked with some Megalithic technology. As Caucasus Dolem_MBA and Sardinian Nuraghs. Or is the Caucasus sample not related with Dolmen_MBA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    Whether in one part, or divided into two, three or four parts, all parts will always be from South Italy. This is what I call ethnic purity. LOL.
    Big hug dear friend Salento :)
    As long as I’m not the one saying that about myself, I’m OK with it.
    People might get the wrong idea.
    Thanks. LOL

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^
    I can not help it I laughed softly but with Duarte's I laughed out loud, but like some friends would laugh at a bar. It is true what you say that people are wrong when someone can say something and more on these issues.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carlos View Post
    ^^
    I can not help it I laughed softly but with Duarte's I laughed out loud, but like some friends would laugh at a bar. It is true what you say that people are wrong when someone can say something and more on these issues.
    ^^ LOL.
    I understand what you two (Carlos and Salento) want to say. There is always the patrol of the politically corrects to distort an innocent speech made in a jokingly between friends. Many people fail to contextualize the situation in which a phrase was said. But I believe that this is not our problem, but of those who do not make an effort minimally to understand things at all. I always reply from the following way: "All of you need to pay attention in what was said and revise your concepts." LOL.
    Kisses and Hugs dear friends :)

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    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Being "pure" doesn't make much sense in this case as Carlos said and I didn't claim that Illyrians and Thracians were pure.

    Obviously the very early Illyrians and Thracians were much closer to the "original" IEans and perhaps those original IEans had similar degrees of EEF and WHG admixture.

    But compared to other modern populations, North Italians seem like one of the closest group.

    It gives me the idea of a strip of land starting from the Pontian Steppe - Hallstatt - Alps - Catalonia, with the Pontian Steppes and Hallstatt peoples having been much heavily admixed while the area from North Italy to Catalonia changed much less.
    What an absurd comment, of course North Italians have ancestry from the north, at least from France, indirectly from central Europe. If you agree that southern Italians have Middle Eastern ancestry which arrived via island hopping, why would the less challenging route (across central Europe and around the Alps) not have happened? Italian ancestry is clinal, with the northern half being far closer to central and west Europeans in character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pip View Post
    I'm not sure we can be too specific about Vucedol, as its DNA seems recently-mixed and diverse, both autosomally and in terms of its yDNA lineages. When it is so mixed, it is difficult to track where the bulk of its descendants might have ended up.

    Its Z2103 sample I3499 looks atypical of Z2103, and more like a cross between Central European Bell Beaker and North Iberian; but I see no signs in it of Yamnayan descent, nor of it being ancestral to Bell Beaker. However, samples around it do look either Yamnayan or undiluted EEF.
    Every R1b-M269 I have seen in the aDNA record can be modeled as partly Yamnayan. This is because an early split of CHG prior to the Maykop culture was absorbed on the steppe. On the other side of the coin, there was Iran_Neo ancestry which remained mostly local to the Middle East and Caucasus and was part of the island hopping that moved across the Mediterranean during the Bronze Age. You could see this split on the old Dodecad calculators when Caucasus type of ancestry split as "West Asian" and "Gedrosia", at least, they were labeled as such. Even French Basque can be modeled as having Gedrosian ancestry, which is of course related to Yamnaya. In terms of West Asian ancestry (aka Iran-Neo), it's practically nil.

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