Bronze Age Vucedol Culture R1b Z2103 / L23

[Gash]

Found in modern Croatia , dates back to the Bronze Age Proto Ilyrian culture around 2000 BC supposedly. its extremely close to modern Albanians IMO and carries a typical Albanian YDNA , only its more West ... West of me and some Albanians











Its gedmatch kit JM8436604




Its puntdnal k13





Its results are very similar to mine , compare

[Gash]

Credit goes to Tomenable ... I wonder what the DNA LAND of this one would look

[Angela]

Closest to Tuscans, North Italians and then Albanians it seems to me, which makes sense to me.

[Nik]

North Italians have got to be the closest people to the original Indo-Europeans.

So much for them being "Celtic", "Germanic", "recent arrivals from the North", "closer to French than South Italians", bla bla bla.

All the Bronze Age and Iron Age Illyrians and Thracians show the same results.

[Angela]

Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.

[Carlos]

Already in themselves the Indo-Europeans were not pure either if there was a huge diversity of mitochondrial DNA should also be composed of various ethnic groups to put it in some way.

[Gash]

Largest segment = 3.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 113.0 cM (3.170 Pct)

66 shared segments found for this comparison.

145170 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.323 Pct SNPs are full identical

[Angela]

Fwiw, Gash, I'm half Bergamo and half Tuscan on most calculators, and the ancient populations which consistently come up, are Vucedol and Hungarian Bronze Age, as well as various EEF and Anatolian Neolithic populations.

[Nik]

Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.

Being "pure" doesn't make much sense in this case as Carlos said and I didn't claim that Illyrians and Thracians were pure.

Obviously the very early Illyrians and Thracians were much closer to the "original" IEans and perhaps those original IEans had similar degrees of EEF and WHG admixture.

But compared to other modern populations, North Italians seem like one of the closest group.

It gives me the idea of a strip of land starting from the Pontian Steppe - Hallstatt - Alps - Catalonia, with the Pontian Steppes and Hallstatt peoples having been much heavily admixed while the area from North Italy to Catalonia changed much less.

[Salento]

Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.

I also get Bergamo but not as much as you.

I look Eastwards to find the Puglia-Illyria connection in my results.

Besides North-East Italy, are you saying that Bergamo has a connection with the Illyrians too?

[Gash]

Closest to Tuscans, North Italians and then Albanians it seems to me, which makes sense to me.

Yeah but I am closer to Italians than this sample is

It has Tuscany at a distance of 5 while I have it at around 3 ... Bergamo it has at 6.73 while I got it at 5.99 .. even though I dont plot with Italians , I plot more East of this sample between Bulgarian and North Italy.


Check my sig, my results are almost identical to this sample, its just a bronze age sample from 3000-2000 BC but no doubt I am looking at some of my ancestors . I also got one of the highest matched segments with this one from what I saw. If they used Albanians like me , I asume it would be closer to us.

Its just more West , I asume it scores west europe ... bronze age from montenegro was more east due to scoring east europe ... but overall these samples and us clearly have genetic overlap imo. I asume samples like the ones found in Montenegro shifted us more East , basically some ancient East European ancestry.

[Gash]

Not to mention that this sample has a typical Albanian YDNA, same as that J2b2 , though this one is closer autosomally to me.

I would of never though bronze age sample to be this close. I mean bronze age samples from same time frame from Bulgaria were like North euros compared.

[Ygorcs]

North Italians have got to be the closest people to the original Indo-Europeans.

So much for them being "Celtic", "Germanic", "recent arrivals from the North", "closer to French than South Italians", bla bla bla.

All the Bronze Age and Iron Age Illyrians and Thracians show the same results.

Well, there is no reason to believe that the BA and IA Illyrians and Thracians were very similar to the original Indo-Europeans, at least those that first spoke it and started its expansion, as opposed to those who actually brought it to the "core" of Europe west of the Carpathians.

[markod]

Yeah but I am closer to Italians than this sample is

It has Tuscany at a distance of 5 while I have it at around 3 ... Bergamo it has at 6.73 while I got it at 5.99 .. even though I dont plot with Italians , I plot more East of this sample between Bulgarian and North Italy.


Check my sig, my results are almost identical to this sample, its just a bronze age sample from 3000-2000 BC but no doubt I am looking at some of my ancestors . I also got one of the highest matched segments with this one from what I saw. If they used Albanians like me , I asume it would be closer to us.

Its just more West , I asume it scores west europe ... bronze age from montenegro was more east due to scoring east europe ... but overall these samples and us clearly have genetic overlap imo. I asume samples like the ones found in Montenegro shifted us more East , basically some ancient East European ancestry.

The Montenegrin samples are closest to Iberians and Czechs respectively. Albanians have a significant shift towards the Near East, so it is impossible they derive significant ancestry from the LBA/IA West Balkans unless the Romans settled the place with Syrians. If you mix BA/IA West Balkans with Czechs you get Austrians/Slovenians not Albanians or Serbs.

I've tried to explain befotr that this is exactly what you'd expect given the linguistic evidence, but the reaction wasn't positive to say the least

[Ygorcs]

Already in themselves the Indo-Europeans were not pure either if there was a huge diversity of mitochondrial DNA should also be composed of various ethnic groups to put it in some way.

Virtually no ethnicity is/was "pure", but it still remains a fact that a specific ethnic group that first spoke Proto-Indo-European and had Indo-European culture must've existed and lived somewhere, and only later did it absorb and mix with other ethnicities. We're talking of populations, ethnically (i.e. culturally and linguistically) defined people, and not about race. The fact that every population is mixed does not lead us to state that "it's all the same, nobody is pure anyway". Populations with a certain ethnic identity did exist in some place and time before expanding and changing, we just have to identify them

[Carlos]

^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

[Ygorcs]

^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

Yes, I get what you mean, but if we want to understand history and population genetics and be able to compare populations, cultures and periods one with another we inevitably have to cut some specific moment and place in that continuous evolution and establish a fixed point so that it can be compared with what came before and after. Otherwise things will get completely muddled and fuzzy, and no analysis of the processes and movements of change, and ultimately no conclusion will be achieved. We can and do need to set a date and population that represented the last relatively homogeneous point before the main expansion of PIE-speaking people to distant lands. That does not deny that, of course, there was a continuous evolution of language, genetics and culture, but it helps clarify what processes happened before or after the main expansion and split of PIE-derived languages.

[Jovialis]

Yes, I get what you mean, but if we want to understand history and population genetics and be able to compare populations, cultures and periods one with another we inevitably have to cut some specific moment and place in that continuous evolution and establish a fixed point so that it can be compared with what came before and after. Otherwise things will get completely muddled and fuzzy, and no analysis of the processes and movements of change, and ultimately no conclusion will be achieved. We can and do need to set a date and population that represented the last relatively homogeneous point before the main expansion of PIE-speaking people to distant lands. That does not deny that, of course, there was a continuous evolution of language, genetics and culture, but it helps clarify what processes happened before or after the main expansion and split of PIE-derived languages.

Wow! I literally just had this conversation with someone, last night IRL.

[Fatherland]

The Montenegrin samples are closest to Iberians and Czechs respectively. Albanians have a significant shift towards the Near East, so it is impossible they derive significant ancestry from the LBA/IA West Balkans unless the Romans settled the place with Syrians. If you mix BA/IA West Balkans with Czechs you get Austrians/Slovenians not Albanians or Serbs.

I've tried to explain befotr that this is exactly what you'd expect given the linguistic evidence, but the reaction wasn't positive to say the least

What makes you think samples from Albania proper within the same timeframe wouldnt plot more similarily to modern Albanians?

Seems like proto-Albanians were more north-western shifted and gradually mixed with Greek women more or less. It's no surprise here, we border the Greeks for several millenias now. Illyrians had contact with Greeks, and also the Dorics were said to be related to the Illyrians.

Plenty of modern Scando, Slav, French, German samples, and so on, are more Near-Eastern shifted than their Bronze Age IE counterparts.

[Duarte]

Sorry for my ignorance.

My question lies is in this fact: Why the Puntdnal K13 calculator was chosen for the study of that specific case.
According It's creator: "The impetus in creating this calculator was the release of the Southeast Asian study, which inspired me to create a calculator that included a Southeast Asian component and give my Southeast and Northeast asian people a more accurate calculator for their ancestry."

In my specific case, that am mainly an Iberian, the distances in the "1 population approximation"are very large, and only become smaller in the case of 4 populations approximation:

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spaniard @ 9.395582
2 Italian_Bergamo @ 10.434740
3 Italian_Tuscan @ 13.895406
4 Macedonian @ 15.314872
5 French @ 15.747106
6 French_Basque @ 16.059492
7 Albanian @ 16.189871
8 Puerto_Rican @ 16.203737
9 Bulgarian @ 16.428440
10 Kosovar @ 16.615946
11 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.111013
12 Serbian @ 17.448019
13 Montenegrin @ 17.732849
14 Romanian @ 18.374989
15 Belgian @ 19.437056
16 German_South @ 19.748306
17 Croatian @ 19.880758
18 Italian_Abruzzo @ 19.989098
19 Bosnian @ 20.218548
20 Greek_Central @ 22.063169

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% German_South +25% Moroccan @ 4.618662

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Serbian @ 4.517266
2 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South @ 4.555442
3 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 4.568152
4 Algerian + Croatian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.597589
5 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Moroccan @ 4.618662
6 Algerian + Bosnian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.622537
7 Puerto_Rican + Spaniard + Spaniard + Spaniard @ 4.655657
8 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian @ 4.683390
9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan + Scottish @ 4.708595
10 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Tunisian @ 4.725478
11 English + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan @ 4.731346
12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Scottish @ 4.742117
13 Algerian + English + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.764601
14 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.771196
15 Albanian + French_Basque + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.773725
16 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Slovene @ 4.776832
17 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Scottish @ 4.789011
18 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Orcadian @ 4.796102
19 Algerian + French_Basque + German_South + Spaniard @ 4.796734
20 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian + Mozabite @ 4.799528

Hugs to all :)

[markod]

What makes you think samples from Albania proper within the same timeframe wouldnt plot more similarily to modern Albanians?
Seems like proto-Albanians were more north-western shifted and gradually mixed with Greek women more or less. It's no surprise here, we border the Greeks for several millenias now. Illyrians had contact with Greeks, and also the Dorics were said to be related to the Illyrians.
Plenty of modern Scando, Slav, French, German samples, and so on, are more Near-Eastern shifted than their Bronze Age IE counterparts.

The difference between Iberians and Albanians/Tuscans is actually not trivial. It would require like 50% replacement with Greeks as source of admixture. I find this very unlikely.

[Fatherland]

The difference between Iberians and Albanians/Tuscans is actually not trivial. It would require like 50% replacement with Greeks as source of admixture. I find this very unlikely.

No, it is likely, doesn't have to be Greeks, but a EEF source.

The same way it happened to Iberia, almost completely replaced by Yamnaya R1b, yet largely EEF in admixture.

North Albanians have less Near Eastern admixture than South Albanians. It goes like a gradual line, increasing the more south.

[Angela]

A lot of my gedmatch results for two population mixes show approximately 50% Iberian/50% Greek.

It's not at all unusual for central/Northern Italians.

Just take a look at the map. It makes perfect sense.

[MOESAN]

^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

I agree for a part, but this process is not level and history knew periods of relative stability compared to other periods and by example between plain Middle Ages and 1900's it seems to me that a lot of regions stayed relatively stable, with a rather sedented basic population (agrculture); otherwise we could not see the current differences between European populations, even if these differences are not huge ones. AS says Ygorcs, we may try to find out these periods of stability and changes and try to link them to political/economical/ethnical/linguistic facts so history.

[Sile]

Sorry for my ignorance.
My question lies is in this fact: Why the Puntdnal K13 calculator was chosen for the study of that specific case.
According It's creator: "The impetus in creating this calculator was the release of the Southeast Asian study, which inspired me to create a calculator that included a Southeast Asian component and give my Southeast and Northeast asian people a more accurate calculator for their ancestry."
In my specific case, that am mainly an Iberian, the distances in the "1 population approximation"are very large, and only become smaller in the case of 4 populations approximation:
[FONT="]Using 1 population approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 Spaniard @ 9.395582[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Italian_Bergamo @ 10.434740[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Italian_Tuscan @ 13.895406[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Macedonian @ 15.314872[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 French @ 15.747106[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 French_Basque @ 16.059492[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Albanian @ 16.189871[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 Puerto_Rican @ 16.203737[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 Bulgarian @ 16.428440[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 Kosovar @ 16.615946[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.111013[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 Serbian @ 17.448019[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Montenegrin @ 17.732849[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 Romanian @ 18.374989[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 Belgian @ 19.437056[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 German_South @ 19.748306[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Croatian @ 19.880758[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 Italian_Abruzzo @ 19.989098[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Bosnian @ 20.218548[/FONT]
[FONT="]20 Greek_Central @ 22.063169
[/FONT][FONT="]Using 3 populations approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT="]1 50% French_Basque +25% German_South +25% Moroccan @ 4.618662[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]Using 4 populations approximation:
[/FONT][FONT="]1 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Serbian @ 4.517266[/FONT]
[FONT="]2 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South @ 4.555442[/FONT]
[FONT="]3 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 4.568152[/FONT]
[FONT="]4 Algerian + Croatian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.597589[/FONT]
[FONT="]5 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Moroccan @ 4.618662[/FONT]
[FONT="]6 Algerian + Bosnian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.622537[/FONT]
[FONT="]7 Puerto_Rican + Spaniard + Spaniard + Spaniard @ 4.655657[/FONT]
[FONT="]8 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian @ 4.683390[/FONT]
[FONT="]9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan + Scottish @ 4.708595[/FONT]
[FONT="]10 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Tunisian @ 4.725478[/FONT]
[FONT="]11 English + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan @ 4.731346[/FONT]
[FONT="]12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Scottish @ 4.742117[/FONT]
[FONT="]13 Algerian + English + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.764601[/FONT]
[FONT="]14 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.771196[/FONT]
[FONT="]15 Albanian + French_Basque + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.773725[/FONT]
[FONT="]16 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Slovene @ 4.776832[/FONT]
[FONT="]17 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Scottish @ 4.789011[/FONT]
[FONT="]18 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Orcadian @ 4.796102[/FONT]
[FONT="]19 Algerian + French_Basque + German_South + Spaniard @ 4.796734[/FONT]
20 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian + Mozabite @ 4.799528
Hugs to all :)

is this admixture correct as it states SW ( south West ) or do they mean SE
.
mine below
puntDNAL K13 Oracle
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 40.21
2 NE_Europe 31.47
3 West_Asia 15.60
4 SW_Asia 8.21
5 NE_Asia 1.68
6 South_Asia 1.20
7 West_Africa 1.10
Finished reading population data. 191 populations found.
13 components mode.
--------------------------------
Least-squares method.
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Italian_Bergamo @ 5.380587
2 Macedonian @ 5.615315
3 Italian_Tuscan @ 6.227891
4 Bulgarian @ 6.515718
5 Kosovar @ 7.404111
6 Albanian @ 7.734768
7 Montenegrin @ 8.686404
8 Greek_Thessaly @ 8.695016
9 Romanian @ 9.424124
10 Serbian @ 9.521023
11 Spaniard @ 10.405109
12 French @ 13.239509
13 Bosnian @ 13.569337
14 Italian_Abruzzo @ 14.127935
15 Croatian @ 14.418421
16 Greek_Central @ 14.897999
17 German_South @ 16.106207
18 Moldavian @ 16.144953
19 Belgian @ 16.758413
20 Hungarian @ 17.273235
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% Italian_Bergamo @ 2.879009
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Italian_Bergamo +25% French_Basque +25% Romanian @ 2.411094
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri + Utahn_European @ 1.902782
2 French_Basque + Hungarian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.002598
3 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish + Utahn_European @ 2.003595
4 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.010896
5 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.016394
6 French_Basque + Moldavian + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.043981
7 Croatian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.045027
8 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.058331
9 Azerbaijan_Azeri + Belgian + French_Basque + Spaniard @ 2.067628
10 French_Basque + Slovene + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.069413
11 French_Basque + Hungarian + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.078355
12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Slovene + Turkish @ 2.124298
13 French + French_Basque + Macedonian + Turkish @ 2.145992
14 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Orcadian + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.150871
15 Bosnian + French_Basque + Spaniard + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.156808
16 French_Basque + Irish + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.157369
17 English + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish @ 2.162531
18 Belgian + French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.173811
19 English + French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Turkish @ 2.182699
20 German_South + Spaniard + Spaniard + Turkish @ 2.183275