Bronze Age Vucedol Culture R1b Z2103 / L23

G

Gash

Guest
Found in modern Croatia , dates back to the Bronze Age Proto Ilyrian culture around 2000 BC supposedly. its extremely close to modern Albanians IMO and carries a typical Albanian YDNA , only its more West ... West of me and some Albanians

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Its gedmatch kit JM8436604




Its puntdnal k13


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Its results are very similar to mine , compare

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Credit goes to Tomenable ... I wonder what the DNA LAND of this one would look
 
Closest to Tuscans, North Italians and then Albanians it seems to me, which makes sense to me.
 
North Italians have got to be the closest people to the original Indo-Europeans.

So much for them being "Celtic", "Germanic", "recent arrivals from the North", "closer to French than South Italians", bla bla bla.

All the Bronze Age and Iron Age Illyrians and Thracians show the same results.
 
Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.
 
Already in themselves the Indo-Europeans were not pure either if there was a huge diversity of mitochondrial DNA should also be composed of various ethnic groups to put it in some way.
 
Largest segment = 3.2 cM

Total Half-Match segments (HIR) = 113.0 cM (3.170 Pct)

66 shared segments found for this comparison.

145170 SNPs used for this comparison.

53.323 Pct SNPs are full identical
 
Fwiw, Gash, I'm half Bergamo and half Tuscan on most calculators, and the ancient populations which consistently come up, are Vucedol and Hungarian Bronze Age, as well as various EEF and Anatolian Neolithic populations.
 
Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.
Being "pure" doesn't make much sense in this case as Carlos said and I didn't claim that Illyrians and Thracians were pure.

Obviously the very early Illyrians and Thracians were much closer to the "original" IEans and perhaps those original IEans had similar degrees of EEF and WHG admixture.

But compared to other modern populations, North Italians seem like one of the closest group.

It gives me the idea of a strip of land starting from the Pontian Steppe - Hallstatt - Alps - Catalonia, with the Pontian Steppes and Hallstatt peoples having been much heavily admixed while the area from North Italy to Catalonia changed much less.
 
Thracians and Illyrians weren't pure "Indo-Europeans" by any stretch of the imagination. They were mixed people, a product of the steppe people (the minority perhaps) and the "natives" of Late Neolithic Europe, who were themselved mostly EEF, with some WHG.

I guess you could describe Northern Italians the same way.

I also get Bergamo but not as much as you.

I look Eastwards to find the Puglia-Illyria connection in my results.

Besides North-East Italy, are you saying that Bergamo has a connection with the Illyrians too?


hHfnLKI.jpg
 
Closest to Tuscans, North Italians and then Albanians it seems to me, which makes sense to me.

Yeah but I am closer to Italians than this sample is :grin:

It has Tuscany at a distance of 5 while I have it at around 3 ... Bergamo it has at 6.73 while I got it at 5.99 .. even though I dont plot with Italians , I plot more East of this sample :tongue: between Bulgarian and North Italy.


Check my sig, my results are almost identical to this sample, its just a bronze age sample from 3000-2000 BC but no doubt I am looking at some of my ancestors . I also got one of the highest matched segments with this one from what I saw. If they used Albanians like me , I asume it would be closer to us.

Its just more West , I asume it scores west europe ... bronze age from montenegro was more east due to scoring east europe ... but overall these samples and us clearly have genetic overlap imo. I asume samples like the ones found in Montenegro shifted us more East , basically some ancient East European ancestry.
 
Not to mention that this sample has a typical Albanian YDNA, same as that J2b2 , though this one is closer autosomally to me.

I would of never though bronze age sample to be this close. I mean bronze age samples from same time frame from Bulgaria were like North euros compared.
 
North Italians have got to be the closest people to the original Indo-Europeans.

So much for them being "Celtic", "Germanic", "recent arrivals from the North", "closer to French than South Italians", bla bla bla.

All the Bronze Age and Iron Age Illyrians and Thracians show the same results.

Well, there is no reason to believe that the BA and IA Illyrians and Thracians were very similar to the original Indo-Europeans, at least those that first spoke it and started its expansion, as opposed to those who actually brought it to the "core" of Europe west of the Carpathians.
 
Yeah but I am closer to Italians than this sample is :grin:

It has Tuscany at a distance of 5 while I have it at around 3 ... Bergamo it has at 6.73 while I got it at 5.99 .. even though I dont plot with Italians , I plot more East of this sample :tongue: between Bulgarian and North Italy.


Check my sig, my results are almost identical to this sample, its just a bronze age sample from 3000-2000 BC but no doubt I am looking at some of my ancestors . I also got one of the highest matched segments with this one from what I saw. If they used Albanians like me , I asume it would be closer to us.

Its just more West , I asume it scores west europe ... bronze age from montenegro was more east due to scoring east europe ... but overall these samples and us clearly have genetic overlap imo. I asume samples like the ones found in Montenegro shifted us more East , basically some ancient East European ancestry.

The Montenegrin samples are closest to Iberians and Czechs respectively. Albanians have a significant shift towards the Near East, so it is impossible they derive significant ancestry from the LBA/IA West Balkans unless the Romans settled the place with Syrians. If you mix BA/IA West Balkans with Czechs you get Austrians/Slovenians not Albanians or Serbs.

I've tried to explain befotr that this is exactly what you'd expect given the linguistic evidence, but the reaction wasn't positive to say the least :rolleyes:
 
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Already in themselves the Indo-Europeans were not pure either if there was a huge diversity of mitochondrial DNA should also be composed of various ethnic groups to put it in some way.

Virtually no ethnicity is/was "pure", but it still remains a fact that a specific ethnic group that first spoke Proto-Indo-European and had Indo-European culture must've existed and lived somewhere, and only later did it absorb and mix with other ethnicities. We're talking of populations, ethnically (i.e. culturally and linguistically) defined people, and not about race. The fact that every population is mixed does not lead us to state that "it's all the same, nobody is pure anyway". Populations with a certain ethnic identity did exist in some place and time before expanding and changing, we just have to identify them
 
^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.
 
^^
To Ygorcs

"Some time" because this is a non-stop and we are already already faced with another change. The movement is that it produces the changes in a gear that never stops. It may be the time when the European knows more about himself and has longed for or longs for a fixed identity card but seeing what has been seen on the identity card of Europe is that non-stop.

Yes, I get what you mean, but if we want to understand history and population genetics and be able to compare populations, cultures and periods one with another we inevitably have to cut some specific moment and place in that continuous evolution and establish a fixed point so that it can be compared with what came before and after. Otherwise things will get completely muddled and fuzzy, and no analysis of the processes and movements of change, and ultimately no conclusion will be achieved. We can and do need to set a date and population that represented the last relatively homogeneous point before the main expansion of PIE-speaking people to distant lands. That does not deny that, of course, there was a continuous evolution of language, genetics and culture, but it helps clarify what processes happened before or after the main expansion and split of PIE-derived languages.
 
Yes, I get what you mean, but if we want to understand history and population genetics and be able to compare populations, cultures and periods one with another we inevitably have to cut some specific moment and place in that continuous evolution and establish a fixed point so that it can be compared with what came before and after. Otherwise things will get completely muddled and fuzzy, and no analysis of the processes and movements of change, and ultimately no conclusion will be achieved. We can and do need to set a date and population that represented the last relatively homogeneous point before the main expansion of PIE-speaking people to distant lands. That does not deny that, of course, there was a continuous evolution of language, genetics and culture, but it helps clarify what processes happened before or after the main expansion and split of PIE-derived languages.

Wow! I literally just had this conversation with someone, last night IRL.
 
The Montenegrin samples are closest to Iberians and Czechs respectively. Albanians have a significant shift towards the Near East, so it is impossible they derive significant ancestry from the LBA/IA West Balkans unless the Romans settled the place with Syrians. If you mix BA/IA West Balkans with Czechs you get Austrians/Slovenians not Albanians or Serbs.

I've tried to explain befotr that this is exactly what you'd expect given the linguistic evidence, but the reaction wasn't positive to say the least :rolleyes:

What makes you think samples from Albania proper within the same timeframe wouldnt plot more similarily to modern Albanians?

Seems like proto-Albanians were more north-western shifted and gradually mixed with Greek women more or less. It's no surprise here, we border the Greeks for several millenias now. Illyrians had contact with Greeks, and also the Dorics were said to be related to the Illyrians.

Plenty of modern Scando, Slav, French, German samples, and so on, are more Near-Eastern shifted than their Bronze Age IE counterparts.
 
Sorry for my ignorance.

My question lies is in this fact: Why the Puntdnal K13 calculator was chosen for the study of that specific case.
According It's creator: "The impetus in creating this calculator was the release of the Southeast Asian study, which inspired me to create a calculator that included a Southeast Asian component and give my Southeast and Northeast asian people a more accurate calculator for their ancestry."

In my specific case, that am mainly an Iberian, the distances in the "1 population approximation" are very large, and only become smaller in the case of 4 populations approximation:

[FONT=&quot]Using 1 population approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Spaniard @ 9.395582[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Italian_Bergamo @ 10.434740[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Italian_Tuscan @ 13.895406[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Macedonian @ 15.314872[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 French @ 15.747106[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 French_Basque @ 16.059492[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Albanian @ 16.189871[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Puerto_Rican @ 16.203737[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Bulgarian @ 16.428440[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Kosovar @ 16.615946[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 Greek_Thessaly @ 17.111013[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 Serbian @ 17.448019[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Montenegrin @ 17.732849[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 Romanian @ 18.374989[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Belgian @ 19.437056[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 German_South @ 19.748306[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Croatian @ 19.880758[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 Italian_Abruzzo @ 19.989098[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Bosnian @ 20.218548[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Greek_Central @ 22.063169

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Using 3 populations approximation:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 50% French_Basque +25% German_South +25% Moroccan @ 4.618662[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Using 4 populations approximation:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Serbian @ 4.517266[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South @ 4.555442[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian @ 4.568152[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 Algerian + Croatian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.597589[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Moroccan @ 4.618662[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Algerian + Bosnian + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.622537[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 Puerto_Rican + Spaniard + Spaniard + Spaniard @ 4.655657[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Hungarian @ 4.683390[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan + Scottish @ 4.708595[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 French_Basque + French_Basque + German_South + Tunisian @ 4.725478[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 English + French_Basque + French_Basque + Moroccan @ 4.731346[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Scottish @ 4.742117[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Algerian + English + French_Basque + French_Basque @ 4.764601[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 French_Basque + Italian_Tuscan + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.771196[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Albanian + French_Basque + Puerto_Rican + Spaniard @ 4.773725[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Slovene @ 4.776832[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Algerian + French_Basque + French_Basque + Scottish @ 4.789011[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 French_Basque + Italian_Bergamo + Mozabite + Orcadian @ 4.796102[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Algerian + French_Basque + German_South + Spaniard @ 4.796734[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 French_Basque + French_Basque + Moldavian + Mozabite @ 4.799528

Hugs to all :)
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