Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 34

Thread: Dairy consumption and height

  1. #1
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

    Dairy consumption and height



    The article highlights the Dutch, and proposes that the Dutch, once among the shortest people in Europe, became among the tallest if not the tallest people in Europe through a change in diet, i.e. the consumption of vast amounts of dairy products, particularly cheese.

    See:
    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34380895

    "In the Netherlands, however, cheese is a serious business. For the Dutch, cheeses, milk, yoghurts and other dairy products are not only staple foods but national symbols, and the bedrock of a major export industry."

    "
    Four hundred years ago, much of the country lay under water, and much of the rest was swampy marshland. "The buttock of the world", was how one 17th-Century visitor described it, "full of veines and bloud, but no bones". Over the next few centuries though, the Dutch embarked on an extraordinary project to rebuild their country. Thousands of canals were dug, and bogs were drained by hundreds of water-pumping windmills.Some of the new land was built on, but large areas were also allocated to help feed the growing population of cities like Amsterdam. Silty reclaimed soil proved perfect for growing rich, moist grass, and that grass in turn made perfect food for cows. Thousands of the creatures soon were grazing happily on reclaimed land. The country's most popular breed - the black and white Friesian - became world famous. At one point, a Friesian called Pauline Wayne even lived at the White House, providing fresh milk for President William Howard Taft and giving personal "interviews" to the Washington Post."

    "In the Netherlands, milk became a popular drink at a time when clean water was in short supply. Any that wasn't drunk was churned into butter or cheeses, often named after the towns where they were traded, such as Gouda (pronounced, to the confusion of cheese-lovers worldwide, "How-da"). In a neat circularity, stacks of tough cow hides were even used as foundations for buildings in Amsterdam: the cows which grazed on reclaimed land providing the foundations for further reclamation. By the 20th Century, the Dutch had fallen head over heels in love with the cow.

    Today, the country's affection for all things bovine continues. The Netherlands now has more than 1.6 million dairy cows - roughly as many as Belgium, Denmark and Sweden combined. (The UK has slightly more, but is roughly six times the size). Dutch cattle produce more than 12 million tonnes of milk each year and some 800,000 tonnes of cheese - more than twice as much as the UK."

    "To the Dutch, milk and cheese are staples, as essential a part of the weekly shop as rice is for a Chinese shopper or teabags are for an Englishman. It's said that about a sixth of the average Dutch food shopping bill goes on dairy products. In a typical year, the average Dutch person consumes more than 25% more milk-based products than their British, American or German counterparts.

    Dutch cuisine is not especially renowned internationally. Popular dishes tend to rely heavily on simple, earthy stodge such as cabbage and potatoes. Cheese, though, is a major exception, a foodstuff which can transform even the humblest Dutchman into a fussy gourmand. Markets throughout the Netherlands sell an astonishing range of different sizes, ages and flavours, from Maasdammer with its Swiss-style holes, to wagon wheel-sized Komijnekaas speckled with cumin seeds."

    "In today's Netherlands, piles of cheese cubes make a popular bar snack, and nothing is more likely to get Dutch lips licking than a kaasplankje cheese platter. But cheese also makes a popular breakfast. Cereal isn't as popular as elsewhere in Europe, and morning trains are filled with commuters eating homemade brown-bread-and-cheese sandwiches for breakfast, often with milk or yoghurt on the side. Urban legend tells of a wealthy executive who complained to the national airline KLM about the food provided in business class. There was no need for all the fancy hot food and champagne, he said. A tasty cheese sandwich and a glass of milk would do just fine."

    "In the mid-1800s, the average Dutchman was about 5ft 4in tall (1m 63cm) - 3in (7.5cm) shorter than the average American. In 150-odd years of scoffing milk and cheese, however, the Dutch soared past the Americans and everyone else. These days, the average Dutchman is more than 6ft tall (1m 83cm), and the average Dutch woman about 5ft 7in (1m 70cm). The Dutch have gone from being among the shortest people in Europe to being the tallest in the world."

    "Scientists continue to debate the causes of this growth spurt - improved nutrition, democratisation of wealth, genetic factors and the natural selection of tall men are all thought to play a role. One important clue is that the fact that growing tall appears to be contagious: immigrants who move to the Netherlands usually end up taller than people who remain in their home countries. So it's perfectly possible that the Dutch dairy addiction played a major role in turning one of the world's flattest places into a land of giants."


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #2
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    366
    Points
    5,982
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,982, Level: 22
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 68
    Overall activity: 38.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Do the Dutch also have higher incidences of heart disease or is that another myth (consumption of cheese leads to heart disease)?

    Hmmm, according to this table: https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/...se/by-country/ they have one of the lowest death rates in the world. Of course that could be because they have a very good health care system.

  3. #3
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    With the caveat that I don't know how reliable any particular statistic is versus another one, their levels aren't at all bad, although they're not the best.
    Their death rate from other causes might be lower to compensate.




    Their cholesterol levels are a little worse:


    I suppose to really learn the effect you'd have to look at the other aspects of their diet. Maybe they don't eat as much actual animal protein?

    How much salt do they use? I've always thought that some of the problem with CHD in Italy has to do with how much salt we use. I'm guilty of it too. I cook with quite a bit, and then add more. It just makes food taste so much better, not just more salty.

    Then there are other factors:


    Then there are genetic factors to be considered.

    It's the truth, however, that the lowest levels of heart disease are in countries in East Asia that traditionally ate much more fish than meat, and no dairy. They're also among the shortest people in the world.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    366
    Points
    5,982
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,982, Level: 22
    Level completed: 87%, Points required for next Level: 68
    Overall activity: 38.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    With the caveat that I don't know how reliable any particular statistic is versus another one, their levels aren't at all bad, although they're not the best.
    Their death rate from other causes might be lower to compensate.




    Their cholesterol levels are a little worse:


    I suppose to really learn the effect you'd have to look at the other aspects of their diet. Maybe they don't eat as much actual animal protein?

    How much salt do they use? I've always thought that some of the problem with CHD in Italy has to do with how much salt we use. I'm guilty of it too. I cook with quite a bit, and then add more. It just makes food taste so much better, not just more salty.

    Then there are other factors:


    Then there are genetic factors to be considered.

    It's the truth, however, that the lowest levels of heart disease are in countries in East Asia that traditionally ate much more fish than meat, and no dairy. They're also among the shortest people in the world.
    The death rates that I quoted and linked are from Cardio vascular disease.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registeredTagger Second Class1000 Experience Points
    edulofter's Avatar
    Join Date
    07-11-18
    Posts
    21
    Points
    1,027
    Level
    8
    Points: 1,027, Level: 8
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 123
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: China



    Really incredible.
    Cheese has such a big influence on the height of the Dutch.
    I investigated some Dutch friends around me. They do have a soft spot for cheese and drink cheese almost every day.
    Attachment 10910
    pic @source

  6. #6
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    Vandemonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-04-19
    Posts
    66
    Points
    698
    Level
    6
    Points: 698, Level: 6
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 52
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Australia



    I'm very fond of the Dutch. They are among the most feminine cultures of the world - "feminine" in the sense of putting a much higher value on friendship and coziness than work and self-aggrandizement. In fact it was Geert Hofstede, a Dutchman, who first used factor analysis to uncover national differences in masculinity/femininity, as wall as others; for instance, the Dutch are quite sincere to the point of bluntness, but equally so have a rather thick skin and aren't easily ruffled. Prostitution is legal, psilocybin truffles are legal, and they have some absolutely phenomenal art - give me Vermeer's Girl With a Pearl Earring over Leonardo's Mona Lisa any day of the week.

    Holland rocks.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,435
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,435, Level: 23
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    What does " High Cholesterol " even means? It would be counterevolutive for a mostly Carnivore specie such as Humans to die because of an high amount of absolutely necessary fat for our organism.

    Dietetic studies are the most doubtfully studies out there and should always be taken with " salt " and reevaluate with multiple factors. That's that way that the Mass are creating useless diet with Low Cholesterol ( meaning Low fatty acid diet ) and will more likely developp sickeness. Fats and especially Animal fats ( wich are high in cholesterol ) are one of the most important macro for humans. Animal Fats are the original form of calorie we used to have before Neolithic and for thousands of millenia. Taking all this in an evolutionary way, if cholesterol really give heart deceases, then heart deceases are a natural feature to help regulating human populations ( who believes it? ).

    Dairys are probably the most nutritious aliments out there for humans, and could sustain an entire country.

  8. #8
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,216
    Points
    11,163
    Level
    31
    Points: 11,163, Level: 31
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    ^^ An excess of anything can be harmful. If you eat anything beyond moderation, you could get health issues
    mmmmmmmmm dooouuughhhnuuuutz

  9. #9
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    Vandemonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-04-19
    Posts
    66
    Points
    698
    Level
    6
    Points: 698, Level: 6
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 52
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Australia



    "Moderation" varies with biology. Many people tell me they get an upset stomach from too much dairy; my digestion suffers when I abstain. I'm no Dutchman, but we are Northern Europeans in my family of six, and we buy seven gallons of milk and a big block of cheese every time we go to the store - once every 4 days. This is how I grew up, and I'm over six feet.

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    10-06-17
    Posts
    113
    Points
    1,689
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,689, Level: 11
    Level completed: 47%, Points required for next Level: 161
    Overall activity: 29.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Kosovar Albanian
    Country: Kosovo



    I think this is because dairy has growth hormones. It makes you taller but it's also cancer promoting or something.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    Vandemonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-04-19
    Posts
    66
    Points
    698
    Level
    6
    Points: 698, Level: 6
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 52
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    I think this is because dairy has growth hormones. It makes you taller but it's also cancer promoting or something.
    That may well be part of the story, but growth hormones are a modern development. Dutch heights were increasing long before the 1970's.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-18
    Posts
    842
    Points
    10,677
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,677, Level: 31
    Level completed: 19%, Points required for next Level: 573
    Overall activity: 76.0%


    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by Vandemonian View Post
    That may well be part of the story, but growth hormones are a modern development. Dutch heights were increasing long before the 1970's.
    Much of the GH in milk is non-synthetic.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-02-19
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    198
    Points
    2,619
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,619, Level: 14
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 131
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Ethnic group
    Northern European
    Country: United States



    My son and I drink approximately two gallons of milk a week. My Ostfriesian great grandfather (closely related to the Dutch) was 6-7. I’m the shortest grandson on that side of the family and I’m 6-2. In my past dealings a banker, the dairy producers all seemed to be taller on average than the rest of the populace, with the exception of the guys that milked the smaller Jersey cows vs the giant Holsteins. Hmm interesting...

  14. #14
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Don't know whether it's just a coincidence or if milk played a role, but my tallest bro, 195 cm, used to drink lots of it in his youth (similar to matty74 above). He just loved it. However, my sis is also pretty tall for a woman (179 cm), but she didn't use to drink it that much. Curiously, my mother has just 160 cm. That's what happens when you grow up eating just polenta, at breakfast, lunch and dinner. lol

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    All they used to eat in my father's mountains was polenta, pasta, cheese, cream, some game or chicken or pork, the hardier of the vegetables, especially cabbage, and whatever grew wild, like mushrooms and chestnuts. Risotto when they could get the rice from the plain, too. 😊

    In my father's immediate family the heights varied: a couple of my uncles were about 6 feet tall, and my father and a few others were about 5'9 or 5'10. However, my nonno was short. My nonna was taller than he was, about 5'10 or more. Her whole family was very tall. I was told that in the 1920s and 1930s the royal family used to recruit up there for their royal guard and some of her cousins were selected.

    Was it all the dairy consumption? I don't know. I would think genetics has something to do with it.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=Val+Parmense

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-02-19
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    198
    Points
    2,619
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,619, Level: 14
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 131
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Ethnic group
    Northern European
    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Vandemonian View Post
    I'm very fond of the Dutch. They are among the most feminine cultures of the world - "feminine" in the sense of putting a much higher value on friendship and coziness than work and self-aggrandizement. In fact it was Geert Hofstede, a Dutchman, who first used factor analysis to uncover national differences in masculinity/femininity, as wall as others; for instance, the Dutch are quite sincere to the point of bluntness, but equally so have a rather thick skin and aren't easily ruffled. Prostitution is legal, psilocybin truffles are legal, and they have some absolutely phenomenal art - give me Vermeer's Girl With a Pearl Earring over Leonardo's Mona Lisa any day of the week.

    Holland rocks.
    We spent a couple days studying Geert Hofstede in law school. Interesting stuff. The Germans next door are one of the more “masculine” societies out there

  17. #17
    Princess Achievements:
    Overdrive10000 Experience PointsVeteranThree Friends
    davef's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-06-16
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    2,216
    Points
    11,163
    Level
    31
    Points: 11,163, Level: 31
    Level completed: 88%, Points required for next Level: 87
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Italian,Irish,Jewish
    Country: USA - New York



    I started getting bad reactions to milk when I was 14 (though to this day cheese never bothers me at all...I can eat any cheese in existence). I'm also 5'9, and totally unashamed of that fact. Height means nothing (especially when stools are available)

  18. #18
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class

    Join Date
    18-08-15
    Posts
    1,386
    Points
    6,435
    Level
    23
    Points: 6,435, Level: 23
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 115
    Overall activity: 7.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R-L2
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c5a

    Ethnic group
    Swiss
    Country: Switzerland



    Quote Originally Posted by davef View Post
    I started getting bad reactions to milk when I was 14 (though to this day cheese never bothers me at all...I can eat any cheese in existence). I'm also 5'9, and totally unashamed of that fact. Height means nothing (especially when stools are available)
    Mongols are heavy dairy users, and they are not tall. Milk and Lactase have complexe behavior, it's even possible that if you dont drink milk for 2-4 months long, you will lose the persistence to digest it. Cheese and Yogurt dont have much Lactose, it's mainly eated by the bacteria, so i guess most humans can digest cheese and yogurt, only allergia to lactose could become problematic.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    All they used to eat in my father's mountains was polenta, pasta, cheese, cream, some game or chicken or pork, the hardier of the vegetables, especially cabbage, and whatever grew wild, like mushrooms and chestnuts. Risotto when they could get the rice from the plain, too. 😊
    In my father's immediate family the heights varied: a couple of my uncles were about 6 feet tall, and my father and a few others were about 5'9 or 5'10. However, my nonno was short. My nonna was taller than he was, about 5'10 or more. Her whole family was very tall. I was told that in the 1920s and 1930s the royal family used to recruit up there for their royal guard and some of her cousins were selected.
    Was it all the dairy consumption? I don't know. I would think genetics has something to do with it.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...t=Val+Parmense
    Yeah, besides diet, surely genetics play a role. In my case, abt. half great-grandparents' families were taller, and the diet must have been virtually the same of the others' - in theory. I know all regions have variations, sometimes big, but I wonder if there may be a relevant geographical correlation inside the same (not so big) area, regarding averages of height. All the relatively tall families of mine came from East (one gg) and North TV (three ggs), while those from West TV, PD, BL and MN were average or relatively short, depending on whom we're talking about. So, mainly paternal relatives. Plus, my mother has a brother relatively tall (don't know exactly how tall, but above 180 cm), while the other brothers are not. Same diet, or almost (I know some of them might prefer one kind of food to another).

    As for the diet specifically, my joking should not be taken literally, of course, but it certainly has an element of truth. :) According to her, they did eat polenta everyday, and anytime of the day. It was the main item by far, and the one they could eat a lot, together with vegetables of all kinds (fruits, green leaves, legumes etc.) and likely wheat flour derivatives, as bread and bigoli. They lived at countryside. Naturally they used to eat also other things, but not that much, as soups (like agnolini - you must call it cappelletti), tortei, some cheese, cow milk, salame (to give some foods a taste), chicken, eggs etc. So with more restriction... Some foods were conserved at pork fat, btw. Oh! And no risotto. :)
    The new generation is clearly bigger, an evidence that diet is also important.

  20. #20
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Regio X View Post
    Yeah, besides diet, surely genetics play a role. In my case, abt. half great-grandparents' families were taller, and the diet must have been virtually the same of the others' - in theory. I know all regions have variations, sometimes big, but I wonder if there may be a relevant geographical correlation inside the same (not so big) area, regarding averages of height. All the relatively tall families of mine came from East (one gg) and North TV (three ggs), while those from West TV, PD, BL and MN were average or relatively short, depending on whom we're talking about. So, mainly paternal relatives. Plus, my mother has a brother relatively tall (don't know exactly how tall, but above 180 cm), while the other brothers are not. Same diet, or almost (I know some of them might prefer one kind of food to another).

    As for the diet specifically, my joking should not be taken literally, of course, but it certainly has an element of truth. :) According to her, they did eat polenta everyday, and anytime of the day. It was the main item by far, and the one they could eat a lot, together with vegetables of all kinds (fruits, green leaves, legumes etc.) and likely wheat flour derivatives, as bread and bigoli. They lived at countryside. Naturally they used to eat also other things, but not that much, as soups (like agnolini - you must call it cappelletti), tortei, some cheese, cow milk, salame (to give some foods a taste), chicken, eggs etc. So with more restriction... Some foods were conserved at pork fat, btw. Oh! And no risotto. :)
    The new generation is clearly bigger, an evidence that diet is also important.
    It has to be the genetics as well, or some of my uncles wouldn't be so much taller than the others. It's as if there are two strains of people up there: one mid-height, gracile boned, and one very tall, very big boned. Sometimes they show up in the same family. We even have women like that, my nonna included. She towered over her husband. My father used to say that a slap from her would send him flying when he was a boy. She took no prisoners, as they say in the U.S. :) I never saw that side of her. The grandchildren saw a different nonna: she was my protector, my ally, my confidant. Of course, by the time I knew her she wasn't being harrassed by being the mother of eleven children and trying to run their properties as well.

    They did have a diet very, very high in cream and cheese consumption, however. As my mother used to say, there were more cows than people up there. There was dairy in the form of cheese at almost every meal, and my father remembers drinking milk also when he would go up to see relatives, sometimes right from the cow, which my mother found disgusting. :) You're right about polenta at most meals, probably at least two a day. My father said breakfast was polenta up there, with cream or melted cheese and some greens or an egg if there were enough that day. They did grow some grain up there, and so made pasta, with chestnut flour if need be if the wheat flour ran out, and rice did come up from the plain as well, even when it was by mule train. I think some of the girls went down to work in the rice fields as well.

    You've inspired me: I'm going to add some of my pictures of meals I've eaten up there to my thread on the cuisine of the parmense. This always happens to me in the spring: I start to get more homesick, even if the Parmense isn't really "home" in the deepest sense. Even my father, born in Sarzana when his parents returned from America, and raised right over the border in the Lunigiana, thought of himself more as a Spezzino than as an Emilian, even if his parents spoke Pramzan to each other and to them.:)

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    31 days registered500 Experience Points
    Vandemonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    06-04-19
    Posts
    66
    Points
    698
    Level
    6
    Points: 698, Level: 6
    Level completed: 74%, Points required for next Level: 52
    Overall activity: 4.0%


    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by matty74 View Post
    We spent a couple days studying Geert Hofstede in law school. Interesting stuff. The Germans next door are one of the more “masculine” societies out there
    Really? Good for you! I do have to admit that Inglehart's findings are more solid - Hofstede played it fast and loose with the data in order to fit a preconceived theory, which is why (for instance) power distance and individualism correlate negatively with one another even when controlling for wealth. But whatever one may say about Hofstede's methods, he clearly had a good intuitive understanding of different cultures, and many of Hofstede's anecdotes and observations are fascinating in their own right.

  22. #22
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    12-03-14
    Posts
    500
    Points
    10,821
    Level
    31
    Points: 10,821, Level: 31
    Level completed: 39%, Points required for next Level: 429
    Overall activity: 20.0%


    Country: Italy



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It has to be the genetics as well, or some of my uncles wouldn't be so much taller than the others. It's as if there are two strains of people up there: one mid-height, gracile boned, and one very tall, very big boned. Sometimes they show up in the same family. We even have women like that, my nonna included. She towered over her husband. My father used to say that a slap from her would send him flying when he was a boy. She took no prisoners, as they say in the U.S. :) I never saw that side of her. The grandchildren saw a different nonna: she was my protector, my ally, my confidant. Of course, by the time I knew her she wasn't being harrassed by being the mother of eleven children and trying to run their properties as well.

    They did have a diet very, very high in cream and cheese consumption, however. As my mother used to say, there were more cows than people up there. There was dairy in the form of cheese at almost every meal, and my father remembers drinking milk also when he would go up to see relatives, sometimes right from the cow, which my mother found disgusting. :) You're right about polenta at most meals, probably at least two a day. My father said breakfast was polenta up there, with cream or melted cheese and some greens or an egg if there were enough that day. They did grow some grain up there, and so made pasta, with chestnut flour if need be if the wheat flour ran out, and rice did come up from the plain as well, even when it was by mule train. I think some of the girls went down to work in the rice fields as well.

    You've inspired me: I'm going to add some of my pictures of meals I've eaten up there to my thread on the cuisine of the parmense. This always happens to me in the spring: I start to get more homesick, even if the Parmense isn't really "home" in the deepest sense. Even my father, born in Sarzana when his parents returned from America, and raised right over the border in the Lunigiana, thought of himself more as a Spezzino than as an Emilian, even if his parents spoke Pramzan to each other and to them.:)
    I'm a bit upset. I typed a long text through smartphone and lost the draft accidentally. In summary:

    I forgot to mention that my grandparents used to give wine with water and sugar to their little children. Sounds weird today. :)
    I also forgot to mention a very, very important item of the diet of virtually all Italian immigrants who settled some "plateaus" of South Brazil, as Serra Gaúcha (which in fact is not a "sierra" technically). If my memory serves, I read somewhere that some of them - probably few -, at the beginning, didn't starve to death at winter thanks to it. It's called "pinhão", a seed of the conifer Araucaria angustifolia. Native forests with this species exist mainly in South Brazil, but there are spots also in NE Argentina and high altitude areas in SE Brazil. The gender Araucaria exists just in South hemisphere AFAIK, but not all species of Araucaria have eatable seeds. Here you have an Araucaria angustifolia, its pine cone and seeds:




    Time ago I sent seeds to a man in Rome. They grew up, but some of them suffered vandalism. Just one survived, and it was transplanted to a safer place. The process had a negative effect on it, unfortunately. But at least it's there.

    As for diet etc., I was the biggest at birth, with 3 cm more than my tallest brother, and also the most "carnivorous" of all, while he used to consume much more milk. :) Still, he's 10 cm taller than me, and another one has 5 cm more, while I'm taller than the eldest. Anyway, it exemplifies that height at birth is not exactly a good reference of height at adulthood, as some people may think. The generation of last decade seems even bigger. Some of my nephews and nieces, for instance, are pretty tall (not as much as that bro of mine; still...). My little one, also a "meat eater", is on percentile 95 so far, and his mom has just 168 cm. :)
    Not sure what kind of food is producing this effect, since my generation was pretty well feeded too.

    I knew some "Italian" women as your nonna, physically. :) My mother-in-law, for example, must be like her more or less. Just 170 cm, but "robust". However, I'm still hoping to know the other side of her, if you know what I mean. je je je Just kidding.

    Coinxidently, I tried milk right from the cow this year for the first time in my life. Not bad, but... If you haven't tried it, you didn't lost anything imo.
    Well, they say raw milk is healthier, 'cause the enzymes are preserved and the proteins are not denatured. I don't know. Even so, it would pose some risks.

    Good to known you were inspired to post pictures of meals, except that they are "torturing", in the good sense. :)
    I checked them. Unfortunately, there is not this kind of food where I live. At leadt not that I know.

  23. #23
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    I don't know if they grow near the Veneto, but in Toscana and Liguria we eat a lot of pine nuts. They cost a fortune nowadays. :) If they didn't have them in Italy perhaps at least they heard of them?

    They're an essential ingredient of pesto, and we make cookies with them, my absolute favorites. :)







    You have to find an Emilian restaurant, or better yet go there. If you like nature, there's nowhere better than the Parco dei Cento Laghi, for example.

    I got wine at mealtimes when I was little, although usually "baptized" wine with some water. There's even a picture of me tipping a straw wine bottle to my mouth. That kind of wine is about 4 % alcohol, so mixed with water it's harmless. It certainly did me no harm. :) Fwiw, I don't ever drink more than two glasses of wine at a time, and I abhor drunkenness. I think you either have a predisposition toward alcoholism, in which case you shouldn't drink, or you don't.

    I had coffee too although I didn't drink it. It went into my zabaglione every morning. Did I mention I was horribly spoiled? :) Yes, by my nonna as well. She would see to it I got mostly everything I wanted. No switch from the willow tree for me, which she used to keep her seven rambunctious boys in line. To be fair I would never have dreamed of doing the kinds of things her boys had done. Even more so than most little girls in my world, I was very proper and well behaved. :)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1000 Experience Points3 months registered

    Join Date
    02-02-19
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    198
    Points
    2,619
    Level
    14
    Points: 2,619, Level: 14
    Level completed: 57%, Points required for next Level: 131
    Overall activity: 42.0%


    Ethnic group
    Northern European
    Country: United States



    Pine nuts and pasta is delicious. I think I had a pasta dish with pine nuts at a northern Italian restaurant years ago in the Minneapolis suburbs.

  25. #25
    Advisor Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends50000 Experience PointsRecommendation Second Class
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Angela's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-01-11
    Posts
    15,301
    Points
    278,809
    Level
    100
    Points: 278,809, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 99.6%


    Ethnic group
    Italian
    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by matty74 View Post
    Pine nuts and pasta is delicious. I think I had a pasta dish with pine nuts at a northern Italian restaurant years ago in the Minneapolis suburbs.
    I like them with pasta too, but also on cookies. They have such a delicate, sweet taste, and a lovely smell.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •