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Thread: Malisor and N Albanian clans and their origin

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Are you from the northern Catholic part of Mati?
    My father is from there. As far as I know Mati is almost Sunny Muslim. Many still retained their earlier Christian names.
    Circa 400 years before my Y-dna ancestor came from Mirdita. And if we go deeper in times it came from the extreme north Albanian areas, but not sure from where exactly

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    Are you self-aware that you can't know everything and decide who is right and who is wrong? Among all Albanians here, you're the one with the least knowledge so do more reading and less posting.

    For me language means nothing as I've seen millions of my brothers join mostly the Montenegrin, Macedonian, Greek, Turkish, etc. ethnos while I see thousands that sell themselves as Pelasgians yet they're appearance and hidden family history points towards Egypt, Turkey, and Iran among others.

    I see square headed and blue/green eyed Sarandiots every summer speaking Greek and I feel pain and even anger towards them for hating us and joining another nation because of the situation created by the Ottoman Empire where Megali Idea and Nacertanije took advantage of.

    I feel closer to young Montenegrins, Serbs, and Greeks with a clear purpose in life (family, friends, honour, love, career, etc.) than to Elvis Naci and Shefqet Krasniqi and their pitiful followers.

    As for your dear friend Dema, I know how he and his wife look like as well as his obvious ideologies and an ancient Phoenician clade means nothing to me as I have nothing but respect for their history and the modern Levantine beauty ;)
    Certainly I don't know everything. Otherwise why I would be here. I hope I can learn something new here.

    Our language probably for you means nothing, but for me means everything as long as it is the language of my parents, and whether of my ancestors since unknown times. It is this language what makes us descendants of Illyrians not some random Y-dna. As for the guys from south whom claims false Greek identities, it is simply proving that Albanians are descendants of Illyrians. Albanians always have been mercenaries since the ancient times. For money Albanians claim any nationality useless for them.

    Dema isn't some Phoenician guy because of his Y-dna. Y-dna has nothing to do with one's ethnicity.

    Kujt po i rruhet per Y-dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    My father is from there. As far as I know Mati is almost Sunny Muslim. Many still retained their earlier Christian names.
    Yes, most are Muslim, but there are a few places with Catholics still, mainly around Ulez, clan Bushkash. It would be very interesting to have a result from there in the Albanian project, as there are none right now. This region might have some unique lines since its history is different from the rest of Mat and Mirdite. Also, the Mirdite clans are quite homogenous today so it is difficult to guess the ancestry of the old inhabitants.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    We cant take you seriously tho, we are aware of identity crisis our diaspora Albanians go thru.
    You know me, you seen my pics? Big deal, i posted them all around.

    You dont know anything about life, let alone about me. You are probably living out of still milking your mother and living in her apartment.
    You are just one meaningless internet-TR0LL, i dont even know who you are, and first time i seen you in my life was when you were trash talking me to defend your Serbicized brother Aspurg few days ago, which is alright i fully support it, but it was hilarious how you magically vanished after hearing his Avaro Cuman theory.

    Look i dont care about you kid, if you need psychiatric help or someone to talk to you, you can answer to me and i will gladly help you. But know that you are not talking to one of your school buddies that you used to handle sheeps together. I am older and show some respect.
    The true problem which really worries me , it's that there are guys in diaspora that don't speak any longer Albanian or they are born there and never did spoke a word of Albanian in their life. These guys still call themselves Albanians due to some Y-dna.
    We are still alive today because of our language, not because of some Y-dna. The only thing Y-dna is useful, is to understand better the history.
    How many ancient nations were lost and died! Their Y-dna is still around , but still they don't exists anymore because their language disappeared. What about Tracians, Phrygians, Hittites, Dacians, Luwians, Lucian's, Lydians, Bithynians, Hurrians, Hattias, etc etc? They are all wiped out. Meanwhile Albanians survived , and all due to their language not due to their Y-dna.

    You may have Y-dna J2b1, but you're a lot more Albanian than are the diaspora guys with Ev13 or even some other Serbs with Ev13 in them.
    Autosomal DNA is more relevant here if there's any

    I don't care which is my Y-dna. If I ever I'll do my test it would be for the purpose to help for a better understanding of the history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I don't care which is my Y-dna. If I ever I'll do my test it would be for the purpose to help for a better understanding of the history.
    That's exactly why it is useful, to understand history. I would recommend both Y-DNA and autosomal though. Keep in mind that Y-DNA is much more helpful in understanding distant ancestry, over 300 years ago.

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    0 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    Isa Boletini was probably I2a1b https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isa_Boletini


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    Is it possible that someone from the mods delete the post number 56 on this thread of this serb trolll Bachus?
    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Is it possible that someone from the mods delete the post number 56 on this thread of this serb trolll Bachus?
    I do not understand the context of this. Can someone clarify in a PM? If this is indeed a t-rolling, I will act accordingly.

    In the meantime, continue on with the thread topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Yes, most are Muslim, but there are a few places with Catholics still, mainly around Ulez, clan Bushkash. It would be very interesting to have a result from there in the Albanian project, as there are none right now. This region might have some unique lines since its history is different from the rest of Mat and Mirdite. Also, the Mirdite clans are quite homogenous today so it is difficult to guess the ancestry of the old inhabitants.
    Yes, I have heard there are some little areas in Mat , which are Catholics, even though many surnames all over Mat bears Catholic surnames, including mine. Hence it's not easy to make any division or having a better view

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bachus View Post
    Isa Boletini was probably I2a1b https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isa_Boletini

    At least back it up with some minimal proves

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    At least back it up with some minimal proves
    Hes an Apricity t-roll. Ignore that budal. Boletini was most likely R1b, being those tested near his place of origin with the same Fis relation came out we such. And he was probably the most identifiable Albanian clades BY611

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    You're still using those same arguements despite I explained these things?

    All ancient Balkan samples found in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia were not I2a Din and those ancient Balkan markers are almost non existant among South Slavs but some are very common in Albanians therefor you cannot use YDNA frequency of those modern populations in those modern areas to claim some Albanian people did not come from there.


    I am literally starting to believe that you are mentally disturbed or is there something I am missing ?

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    Hes an Apricity t-roll. Ignore that budal. Boletini was most likely R1b, being those tested near his place of origin with the same Fis relation came out we such. And he was probably the most identifiable Albanian clades BY611
    In my opinion the Boletini were likely R-PF7563 like most from the Shala clan, people from nearby villages tested as such. So he would've been R1b but not BY611. Some Serbs believe that he was I2a1b because of how some Shala from Decan tested as such, though they forget that the Boletini moved from Isniq and not Decan itself. They originate from the Shala highlands of Dukagjin ultimately. Without testing Isa's family we won't know for sure, a family from a nearby village tested as J2b-PH1751 iirc so that could indicate something. But I personally think they were R-PF7563.

    Even if he was I2a1b, Serbs claiming him as Serbian would be absurd. By this logic we could claim all Serbs that fall under Albanian clusters like the Serbian Kuci/Kuqi members for example and many other Serbs. Its stupid to claim someone as yours solely on Y-DNA, especially when that person was a nationalistic patriot that fought for his homeland.
    Ydna: J-ZS241

    mtDNA: T1a1l

    Maternal Ydna: E-V13>CTS5856*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    In my opinion the Boletini were likely R-PF7563 like most from the Shala clan, people from nearby villages tested as such. So he would've been R1b but not BY611. Some Serbs believe that he was I2a1b because of how some Shala from Decan tested as such, though they forget that the Boletini moved from Isniq and not Decan itself. They originate from the Shala highlands of Dukagjin ultimately. Without testing Isa's family we won't know for sure, a family from a nearby village tested as J2b-PH1751 iirc so that could indicate something. But I personally think they were R-PF7563.
    True. Check out Foleja! I just got that guy from Kosova as a match. Including my father. He most likely belongs to the Dibra Cluster. Shot him an email.

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    I cant believe the level of posting of some people...
    Anyways lets get back to the important things.

    Illyrians and ancient DNA is not not important in this case. As we are not talking about Bosnian Illyrians 2000 - 2500 years ago neither about some very ancient people, but rather about modern North Albanian clans that developed since 15 century and later. From 15-17 century (Berisha being oldest in 15 century according to Noel Malcolm book, history of Kosovo). So its people from 400 - 600 years ago.

    Looks like some people are forgetting arrival of Slavs and that especially in that time but even for centuries before Bosnia was exclusively Slavic territory.
    Looks like some people didnt read a single book before posting here.

    Therefore how its possible that all these ancestors with classic Albanian haplogroups arrived from Bosnia and Hercegovina where as we stated I2a goes up to 70 % and other language then Albanian was spoken?

    Even Noel Malcolm in his book concluded that clans were formed out of local and regular N Albanian and Malësia e Madhe population in order to protect their cattle lands.
    And genetics fully agrees with this statement of Noel Malcolm in his history of Kosovo book.


    I only dont know what is bigger stupidity when i hear Albanians say that 15 century Albanian clans formed out of Bosnian Illyrians (trying to ridiculously backup some fairy tale that has no logic at all), or Sanxhak Albanians when they are claiming that they are remains of 14 century rule of king Tvrtko of Bosnia that has actually had Sanxhak under his rule in that time.

    Out of these two stupidities, i would have to say that Albanians claiming Bosnian Illyrians arrived here in 15 century and formed clans is absolutely most utter trash thing i heard in my life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I cant believe the level of posting of some people...
    Anyways lets get back to the important things.

    Illyrians and ancient DNA is not not important in this case. As we are not talking about Bosnian Illyrians 2000 - 2500 years ago neither about some very ancient people, but rather about modern North Albanian clans that developed since 15 century and later. From 15-17 century (Berisha being oldest in 15 century according to Noel Malcolm book, history of Kosovo). So its people from 400 - 600 years ago.

    Looks like some people are forgetting arrival of Slavs and that especially in that time but even for centuries before Bosnia was exclusively Slavic territory.
    Looks like some people didnt read a single book before posting here.

    Therefore how its possible that all these ancestors with classic Albanian haplogroups arrived from Bosnia and Hercegovina where as we stated I2a goes up to 70 % and other language then Albanian was spoken?

    Even Noel Malcolm in his book concluded that clans were formed out of local and regular N Albanian and Malësia e Madhe population in order to protect their cattle lands.
    And genetics fully agrees with this statement of Noel Malcolm in his history of Kosovo book.


    I only dont know what is bigger stupidity when i hear Albanians say that 15 century Albanian clans formed out of Bosnian Illyrians (trying to ridiculously backup some fairy tale that has no logic at all), or Sanxhak Albanians when they are claiming that they are remains of 14 century rule of king Tvrtko of Bosnia that has actually had Sanxhak under his rule in that time.

    Out of these two stupidities, i would have to say that Albanians claiming Bosnian Illyrians arrived here in 15 century and formed clans is absolutely most utter trash thing i heard in my life.
    Sorry, I don't see anyone here yet claiming that northern Albanian clans descent from Bosnia. Some of them may have some Bosnian heritage as well. Vlach language was spoken till late in Croatia and Bosnia's territories , hence I don't see why Albanian couldn't have been spoken. Even if Slavic was the main and dominant language there, it doesn't mean that there weren't other languages spoken along Slavic.
    Again, Slavic loanwords into Albanian predates the formation of serbo-croat language, which means that Albanians and Slavs lived side by side before 1000 ad. Bosnia could be part of that habitat.

    Noel Malcolm don't understand very good Balkans and its cultural environment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    Sorry, I don't see anyone here yet claiming that northern Albanian clans descent from Bosnia. Some of them may have some Bosnian heritage as well. Vlach language was spoken till late in Croatia and Bosnia's territories , hence I don't see why Albanian couldn't have been spoken. Even if Slavic was the main and dominant language there, it doesn't mean that there weren't other languages spoken along Slavic.
    Again, Slavic loanwords into Albanian predates the formation of serbo-croat language, which means that Albanians and Slavs lived side by side before 1000 ad. Bosnia could be part of that habitat.

    Noel Malcolm don't understand very good Balkans and its cultural environment

    -There is no record about such event or migration. Not a single proof or logic. Bosnia, Hercegovina and Dinaric Alps are actually Slavic epicenter since Early Slavs arrival in 6-7 century CE.

    -Albanian clans formed under Ottoman Empire borders late in 15 century with Berisha being oldest established clan. Its very well known they formed out of Malesia e Madhe and N Albania local population. No need for fairy tales.

    -Why you mention year "1000 AD" ? In that time other haplogroups then these found in Albanian clans flourished in Hercegovina.

    -You dont understand genetics neither history, and you didn't read Noel Malcolm, dont be ridiculous Piro the Ilir boy.

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    2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    -There is no record about such event or migration. Not a single proof or logic. Bosnia, Hercegovina and Dinaric Alps are actually Slavic epicenter since Early Slavs arrival in 6-7 century CE.

    -Albanian clans formed under Ottoman Empire borders late in 15 century with Berisha being oldest established clan. Its very well known they formed out of Malesia e Madhe and N Albania local population. No need for fairy tales.

    -Why you mention year "1000 AD" ? In that time other haplogroups then these found in Albanian clans flourished in Hercegovina.

    -You dont understand genetics neither history, and you didn't read Noel Malcolm, dont be ridiculous Piro the Ilir boy.
    There is no proof of such migrations because history wasn't recorded well back then at such a times so its just a speculation nor am I saying that such migrations occured but the arguement you provided against it aren't arguements either which I have already explained. You don't seem to be able to understand anything no matter how much they are explained to you.

    Nobody said those tribes came from those areas but supposedly their founders. Its possible some Malsors came from neighboring areas. Malsia served as a refugee place. Coon mentions this and so does Noel. Its no less credible than the Dacian or Thracian theory.


    That some Malsors came from Montenegro, plains of Kosovo and Macedonia is very possible.

    Some Dalmatian Latin also touchdd Northern Albania , maybe some migrations from Herzegovina and Bosnia also occured. Which also Noel does mention.

    The arguements you provided against it aren't any arguements.


    You should consider to get a new hobby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    There is no proof of such migrations because history wasn't recorded well back then at such a times so its just a speculation nor am I saying that such migrations occured but the arguement you provided against it aren't arguements either which I have already explained. You don't seem to be able to understand anything no matter how much they are explained to you.

    Nobody said those tribes came from those areas but supposedly their founders. Its possible some Malsors came from neighboring areas. Malsia served as a refugee place. Coon mentions this and so does Noel. Its no less credible than the Dacian or Thracian theory.


    That some Malsors came from Montenegro, plains of Kosovo and Macedonia is very possible.

    Some Dalmatian Latin also touchdd Northern Albania , maybe some migrations from Herzegovina and Bosnia also occured. Which also Noel does mention.

    The arguements you provided against it aren't any arguements.


    You should consider to get a new hobby.

    Hello Albert, did you take your medication?

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Lol. There are almost no Albanian tribes that have tradition of coming from Bosnia or Hercegovina nor their founders so your thread was a fail from the very start. This is only said about one tribe or two , I think it was Hoti or something and some Montenigrin Vlach tribes like Piperi. Other than that most Albanian tribes don't have tradition of coming from there. It's possible those people could of come from there even during epicenter of Slavic rule , some natives could of survived in those areas. I don't understand why this is so important to you other than that you have no life and enjoy arguing on the internet about meaningless stuff.

    It is said Shala or their founders came from plains of Kosovo which is very plausible. Many Malsors did come from neighboring areas, maybe not Bosnia.

    What was nonsense is Dacians coming from Romania and into Albanian lands and replacing Ilyrians. People like you did not lift a finger about such theories but some tribes coming from here and there seems to bother you because you are a person with no life.

    Get a job or something.

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    0 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gash View Post
    Lol. There are almost no Albanian tribes that have tradition of coming from Bosnia or Hercegovina nor their founders so your thread was a fail from the very start. This is only said about one tribe or two , I think it was Hoti or something and some Montenigrin Vlach tribes like Piperi. Other than that most Albanian tribes don't have tradition of coming from there. It's possible those people could of come from there even during epicenter of Slavic rule , some natives could of survived in those areas. I don't understand why this is so important to you other than that you have no life and enjoy arguing on the internet about meaningless stuff.

    It is said Shala or their founders came from plains of Kosovo which is very plausible. Many Malsors did come from neighboring areas, maybe not Bosnia.

    What was nonsense is Dacians coming from Romania and into Albanian lands and replacing Ilyrians. People like you did not lift a finger about such theories but some tribes coming from here and there seems to bother you because you are a person with no life.

    Get a job or something.

    Please Albert, you were among the first claiming this Hercegovinian origin, even tho i don't blame you, it is oral tradition after all, and you read that somewhere.
    I remember explaining all this long ago to you, but you simply refuse to understand things and you are extremely stubborn.

    You even raged so much over some stupid discussion (Guri Gashit - Krasniqi tribe STRs, TMRCA, difference, CDY value, etc..) we had on private that you started to lie that i was bothering you with Y-DNA upgrades and stuff.
    When in fact we should have had just friendly conversation, your ego was too big to accept facts even tho i was right. I don't understand why people are like that. When someone proves me that they are right i always shake their hand and admit it. You are such a drama queen, i know you so good. But when we meet live you were completely the opposite. I dont get this online behavior tbh.

    You were imagining things that someone is spying you, and searching your name online on social networks so you asked to be removed from Albanian project. You even contacted me over facebook claiming someone is spying on you. I just hope you are better.
    I wont even comment stuff you were saying on Apricity because after all i still consider you good guy.

    Dont forget that you even contacted FTDNA and asked your results and your sample ID to be deleted and your sample to be destroyed.

    You used to be my closest autosomal relative, now your name vanished and they indeed destroyed your sample.

    You claimed this long ago, in that time i didn't even hear for these oral traditions but it was clear by genetics and by history that it is virtually impossible.

    You have some weird need to finally beat me in some argument so you can feel satisfied, which i fully support and i encourage you to beat me in argument and i will for sure shake your hand and congratulate you.
    Just this Hercegovinian story is BS, just accept it and move on.


    Whats up btw, are you better now? No one was spying you or anything, its all alright Albert, you are safe : )

  22. #72
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    5 out of 5 members found this post helpful.
    The earliest attestation of any Albanian clan we have is Berisha in 1242, and also 1348. Way before the Ottoman empire.


    In documents dated 1242, 22nd of April, Ragusa. Berisha is mentioned in the passage "Nobilibus Viris Dulcinensibus Berissa Comitis".

    Also, in 1348 Tsar Dushan mentions Berisha's field (Berishin Dol) in West Kosovo, Peje region.

    The thesis that all clans formed during the Ottoman Empire is neatly falsified by this information.




    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  23. #73
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    1 out of 2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The earliest attestation of any Albanian clan we have is Berisha in 1242, and also 1348. Way before the Ottoman empire.


    In documents dated 1242, 22nd of April, Ragusa. Berisha is mentioned in the passage "Nobilibus Viris Dulcinensibus Berissa Comitis".

    Also, in 1348 Tsar Dushan mentions Berisha's field (Berishin Dol) in West Kosovo, Peje region.

    The thesis that all clans formed during the Ottoman Empire is neatly falsified by this information.







    You have unfortunately misunderstood also somewhat twisted things. No one is saying that Berisha surname was not mentioned earlier. Or in fact that Berisha family was not present in some positions in area, but when talking of Albanian tribes, only in 15 century they developed as such and gained tribal spirit. From 15 to 17 century to be more precise. You obviously dont understand that tribes were allowed to practice their laws and traditions under the Ottoman state and Ottomans did not interrupt them neither interfeire.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanun_(Albania)

  24. #74
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    4 out of 6 members found this post helpful.
    The Kanun is further evidence that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire. Dusan's code was greatly influenced by the Kanun, and in the south there was "Pyrrhus' Kanun", and Leka's Kanun is attested before the existence of Lekë Dukagjini, whos kanun supposedly extends far beyond any of his possessions or territories. Many elements of the Kanun date back to the Bronze Age and dictate honour and tribal law, etc.

    We can safely conclude that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire.


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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    We can safely conclude that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire.
    Albanian clans surely did exist in pre-Ottoman times. Already in Venetian Cadastre of Scodra from 1416 multiple individuals with clearly tribal names are recorded. For example in 6 separate villages 6 individuals with second name Gruda. This is a clear indication of Gruda already then being a tribal designation. Same goes for Tuzi (Tusi, most of them in village Tuzi), Shkreli (Schereli/Scherelli/Schirelli, many from the village Schirelli), Bushat (19 Bussati and 2 Busati individuals as 2nd name exclusively), Kryezi (Cruessio, Cruesio), Kastrati (6, of those 5 Castrati from Castrati village) etc.

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