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Thread: Malisor and N Albanian clans and their origin

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    Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond
    https://books.google.al/books?id=O9s...lt&redir_esc=y

    Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas

    Albanian Ethnogenesis

    The Albanian is by habit and instinct a mountaineer, and the heart of Albania has always beaten most strongly in the tangle of very high mountains in the north of the country. That area has been impenetrable to many foreign armies, and its inhabitants have governed themselves and observed their own laws without paying much regard to the rulers of the lowlands; whether Greek, Roman, Turkish or Italian. The laws were traditional, and they were not written down until recently. The Albanians themselves say that their laws were codified, if one may use that word of oral composition, in the fifteenth century by Lek Dukagjini, and that he was an older contemporary and friend of George Skanderbeg (1403-67), the leader of the heroic resistance against the all-conquering Turks. The achievement of Lek Dukagjni was not to invent laws but to organise the traditional ones of the numerous tribes of the northern part of the country - his own home into a consistent system of law, and to persuade the tribes to adopt it. Since that time the laws have been handed down separately in tribes and in families by oral tradition; and the fact that they still belong recognisably to a codified system is a testimony to the accuracy and strength of an oral transmission, which continued until the mid-twentieth century, when ideological revolutions replaced the code of Lek Dukagjini with that of Enver Hoxha and his colleagues.
    In the 1930s the Albanians of the modern state of Albania were only a portion of those who spoke Albanian. Quite apart from the emigrants in Egypt, America and elsewhere, there were large groups of Albanian-speakers in Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. The most interesting are those who were indigenous to the country but were included in south-western Yugoslavia by the drawing of the frontier in 1912-13.
    They have remained completely Albanian in the pre-war sense of the word, retaining their traditional customs and living close to the subsistence level in the hilly country, for instance to the north of Ochrid, where I talked with the peasants of Gorice.
    What united this plethora of often warring families and often warring tribes as Albanians was a love of their land, a sense of family unity vis-a-vis Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks and Italians, and a unique language, which belongs, like Greek and Latin, to the Indo-European group of languages but is at a primitive stage of development. This language may be the direct descendant of the Illyrian language, which was spoken by the inhabitants of the north-western part of the Balkans from early in the second millennium B.C. down to the collapse of the Roman Empire If so, it provides an analogy to the survival of Greek today as the direct descendant of Mycenaean Greek.
    The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable (17).

    (15) Published by V. Makusev, Pamiatniki Dubrovnika (Petrograd, 1867), pp. 307.









    17 Dec.
    Paget to the Council.

    Now the Council's letters seem to imply (words quoted) that the King will keep no strangers save the Albanoys.

    Cales, 17 Dec. 1545. Signed.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    The Kanun is further evidence that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire. Dusan's code was greatly influenced by the Kanun, and in the south there was "Pyrrhus' Kanun", and Leka's Kanun is attested before the existence of Lekë Dukagjini, whos kanun supposedly extends far beyond any of his possessions or territories. Many elements of the Kanun date back to the Bronze Age and dictate honour and tribal law, etc.

    We can safely conclude that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire.


    This proves nothing, and for sure not that tribes were formed before Ottoman Empire lol. This text proves nothing about anything we talked about here.

    Wait what, is author of this text trying to connect Alexander the Macedon 350 BC, Pyrrhus the Greek general from 300 BC, and Lekë Dukagjini from 1400 AD from Ottoman period???

    This author is a joke, this is something unbelievable to read and unrealistic, its closer to fairy tale then to anything realistic, i hope this is not really released by Albanian Institute of History lol. I mean i seen similar stupidities in Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian school books so this is not surprising me too much.

    Author is practically shitting over all Albanian noble families and saying Dukagjini were the most worthy one and he connects them to Phyrrus and Alexander the Great haahahahahhaha , wait what is his name again, Kasem Biçoku, hahahhaa Kasem my dear Kasem, he must have eaten hallucogenic mushrooms before writing this text.

    Author does not give a single reference to his ridiculously stupid claims unlike Noel Malcolm who is very very strict in giving references and explanations of additional material to enable further study.
    This is so stupid that i am just curious into sources and references to see where he pulled this stupidity from, but i doubt that anyone is so naive to claim this, its more likely this funny guy just made up all this.

    Why is this funny guy Kasem Biçoku comparing and trying in a senseless way to connect Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus and Leke Dukagjin who was born 1700 years later will probably remain forever mystery to me.

    What most of you but also this "historian" dont understand is that history has its timeline, you cant jump from one place of history to another trying to connect dots that are 2000 years away one from another while ignoring all other dots in between. Do you understand that? This is written as SF roman rather then serious text about history. There is not one single person or serious historian who would consider text written like this serious. This reminds me of Croatian school book stories about Tuga and Buga and Slavic arrival to Dalmatian coast. Its pure SF story.

    Truth is that Malesia and surroundings in pre-tribal/Ottoman time were ruled by Albanian and Serbian feudal lords and their principalities.

    Only after death of Dušan who was ruler of Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians, after decay of his empire, these principalities managed to pop up like mushrooms and become stronger under lead of local feudal lords.

    Dukagjini family actually first allied with Serbs and they begged to serve Serbs and particularly Stefan Lazarević, the Serbian despot and prince. But later they allied with Skenderbeg, only to betray Skenderbeg and in the end ally with Ottomans and serve Ottomans for centuries to come.

    After Dukagjini and Arianiti families left League of Lezhe, as allies with Ottomans they fought against Skenderbeg.

    Read this :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League...%AB#Background

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lek%C3%AB_Dukagjini


    There was also Dukakinoğlu Ahmed Pasha, he is Dukagjini family member, but was proud member of Ottoman Empire ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukakinzade_Ahmed_Pasha


    But never the less, Dukagjini was a noble Albanian family and it is Leke Dukagjini credit to codify Kanun that tribes will later use as law and codex principle.



    Albanian principalities:





    - Only after Dusan Empire started to decay most of these principalities and feudal noble land lords manage to pop up and become stronger.
    - Only after these principalities and and local noble families started to decay and vanish under Ottoman conquer, clans formed inside of Ottoman Empire out of local villagers in order to protect their cattle lands.
    - Dukagjini was not tribal but noble Albanian family, tribes later used its Kanun codex as law and codex hence why they call them tribes of Leke Dukagjini.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Albanian clans surely did exist in pre-Ottoman times. Already in Venetian Cadastre of Scodra from 1416 multiple individuals with clearly tribal names are recorded. For example in 6 separate villages 6 individuals with second name Gruda. This is a clear indication of Gruda already then being a tribal designation. Same goes for Tuzi (Tusi, most of them in village Tuzi), Shkreli (Schereli/Scherelli/Schirelli, many from the village Schirelli), Bushat (19 Bussati and 2 Busati individuals as 2nd name exclusively), Kryezi (Cruessio, Cruesio), Kastrati (6, of those 5 Castrati from Castrati village) etc.


    Yes i agree with this, this only proves what i was initially claiming that tribes formed out of regular N Albania, Montenegro and Malësia e Madhe population rather then out of some magical emigration out of Bosnia or more specifically Hercegovina. These names that you mention are only some of the biggest and most dominant families in the area. But only after fall of Albanian and Serbian noble families where in fact most of them later joined with Ottomans. Only then tribes as we know them formed under the Ottoman Empire and were allowed to practice their laws and traditions. They formed out of local sheep handlers.

    These are not "tribal names" as you say but rather local family names, thet will later develop into tribes that you know.
    Similar thing was happening in Serbia and Montenegro also, until all of them finally fall and joined as vassals to Ottomans.

    The crumbling Serbian Empire under Stefan Uroš V (called "the Weak") was to be of little resistance to the powerful Ottoman Empire. In light of conflicts and decentralization of the realm, the Ottomans defeated the Serbs at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371, making vassals of the southern governors, soon thereafter, the Emperor died. As Uroš was childless and the nobility could not agree on the rightful heir, the Empire was ruled by semi-independent provincial lords, who often were in feuds with each other. The most powerful of these, Tsar Lazar, a Duke of present-day central Serbia (which had not yet come under the Ottoman yoke), stood against
    the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. The result was indecisive, but it resulted in the subsequent fall of Serbia.

    The administration was divided in the following:





    After both Albanian and Serbian nobilities fall down and started to serve Ottomans, clans (tribe, fis) formed in 15 century inside of Ottoman Empire out of local sheep handling population. They were allowed to practice their own laws from Kanun and traditions that were specific and native to that part of Ottoman Empire, more specific, Montenegro, Albania, Malesia e Madhe and surroundings. They are just regular Albanian and Montenegrin villagers that used Ottoman Empire to expand because until then they were under medieval feudal command and ownership of noble Albanian and Serbian families that used to ally and marry in between them while exploiting local population.
    Last edited by Dema; 16-04-19 at 13:30.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Arvanites in greece that moved there in 1200's lived in clans (fara) and had almost identical tribal laws. Regardless, the statute of shkodra explicitly states alexander the great as source of laws of self governance. And Lekas kanun extends far beyond Dukagjini's territories, and inside territories of far more powerful families like Balsha, Kastriot, Thopia, Muzaka, and Lekas kanun appears even in deep south territories.
    We have ample evidence to neatly conclude that tribal law pre-exists Ottomans. Ottoman revisionism doesnt have any weight against this conclusive evidence.
    Also many aspects of the Kanun, date back to antiquity, making ottoman genesis impossible, see Margaret Hasluck.
    The Ethical Structure of the Kanun and its Relationship with Homeric Epics and Greek Philosophy
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...P6h8JDEKz3BRGQ
    The Scene in The Iliad 18.497-508 (i.e. The Shield of Achilles ) and the Albanian Blood-feud / Kanun
    by NGL Hammond.
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/05...hqXcOc4V6rkjVg
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/05...vByzq6zfvmVB18
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Arvanites in greece that moved there in 1200's lived in clans (fara) and had almost identical tribal laws. Regardless, the statute of shkodra explicitly states alexander the great as source of laws of self governance. And Lekas kanun extends far beyond Dukagjini's territories, and inside territories of far more powerful families like Balsha, Kastriot, Thopia, Muzaka, and Lekas kanun appears even in deep south territories.
    We have ample evidence to neatly conclude that tribal law pre-exists Ottomans. Ottoman revisionism doesnt have any weight against this conclusive evidence.
    Also many aspects of the Kanun, date back to antiquity, making ottoman genesis impossible, see Margaret Hasluck.
    The Ethical Structure of the Kanun and its Relationship with Homeric Epics and Greek Philosophy
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...P6h8JDEKz3BRGQ
    The Scene in The Iliad 18.497-508 (i.e. The Shield of Achilles ) and the Albanian Blood-feud / Kanun
    by NGL Hammond.
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/05...hqXcOc4V6rkjVg
    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/05...vByzq6zfvmVB18


    Well, i dont say Leke Dukagjini invented Kanun, after all Skendebeg version of Kanun is most and very similar to Leke one, so there was couple of versions to begin with.
    Futhermore i believe that it has roots since Bronze Age or rather more civilised and also tribe like Iron Age.

    Also i can agree that similar rules were also written since time of Alexander the Great.

    It is even possible that Leke himself is direct paternal ancestor of Alexander the Great, just we dont know that and trying to connect dots like that is very unprofessional and unethical.
    It is more realistic to compare it to Skenderbeg or even Dusan code then to Pyrro or Alexander which is way out of their time frame and league.


    Albanian, Montenegrin and Serb noble families held territory in that particular time of period, clans as we know formed and expanded under Ottoman Empire. If you find tribal surname somewhere its just family member of these large families that will later develop into tribes as you know them and control the territory in that way under these laws.

    I agree that they were guided by the laws coded by one until then noble Albanian family, Dukagjini one, and that these laws are probably ethnic and traditional heritage since ancient times.

    I didn't say that all this was invented in Ottoman Period, i rather said its all native and it even existed inside of Ottoman Empire as a special law, culture and ethnic structure where Ottoman laws were not interfering.
    It is very delicate and unique situation, not many people can be granted these rights, i believe Illyrians were granted similar rights under Roman Empire. They were for sure more spared and respected then other more geographically distant nations.

    After all we know how many Illyrian emperors even ruled empire therefore it is no wonder no one dared to interfere into tribal laws deep inside of their ethnic territories once they accepted Roman Empire.
    Similar thing happened within Ottoman Empire where after accepting it, they formed their secure ethnic zone where their own ethnic and traditional laws applied.

    Where these laws originate? I dont know, Hellenic, Illyrian, Thracian, Italic and other tribes were probably also guided by similar sets of rules and laws. I am not denying that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    This proves nothing, and for sure not that tribes were formed before Ottoman Empire lol. This text proves nothing about anything we talked about here.

    Wait what, is author of this text trying to connect Alexander the Macedon 350 BC, Pyrrhus the Greek general from 300 BC, and Lekë Dukagjini from 1400 AD from Ottoman period???

    This author is a joke, this is something unbelievable to read and unrealistic, its closer to fairy tale then to anything realistic, i hope this is not really released by Albanian Institute of History lol. I mean i seen similar stupidities in Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian school books so this is not surprising me too much.

    Author is practically shitting over all Albanian noble families and saying Dukagjini were the most worthy one and he connects them to Phyrrus and Alexander the Great haahahahahhaha , wait what is his name again, Kasem Biçoku, hahahhaa Kasem my dear Kasem, he must have eaten hallucogenic mushrooms before writing this text.

    Author does not give a single reference to his ridiculously stupid claims unlike Noel Malcolm who is very very strict in giving references and explanations of additional material to enable further study.
    This is so stupid that i am just curious into sources and references to see where he pulled this stupidity from, but i doubt that anyone is so naive to claim this, its more likely this funny guy just made up all this.

    Why is this funny guy Kasem Biçoku comparing and trying in a senseless way to connect Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus and Leke Dukagjin who was born 1700 years later will probably remain forever mystery to me.

    What most of you but also this "historian" dont understand is that history has its timeline, you cant jump from one place of history to another trying to connect dots that are 2000 years away one from another while ignoring all other dots in between. Do you understand that? This is written as SF roman rather then serious text about history. There is not one single person or serious historian who would consider text written like this serious. This reminds me of Croatian school book stories about Tuga and Buga and Slavic arrival to Dalmatian coast. Its pure SF story.

    Truth is that Malesia and surroundings in pre-tribal/Ottoman time were ruled by Albanian and Serbian feudal lords and their principalities.

    Only after death of Dušan who was ruler of Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians, after decay of his empire, these principalities managed to pop up like mushrooms and become stronger under lead of local feudal lords.

    Dukagjini family actually first allied with Serbs and they begged to serve Serbs and particularly Stefan Lazarević, the Serbian despot and prince. But later they allied with Skenderbeg, only to betray Skenderbeg and in the end ally with Ottomans and serve Ottomans for centuries to come.

    After Dukagjini and Arianiti families left League of Lezhe, as allies with Ottomans they fought against Skenderbeg.

    Read this :

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League...%AB#Background

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lek%C3%AB_Dukagjini


    There was also Dukakinoğlu Ahmed Pasha, he is Dukagjini family member, but was proud member of Ottoman Empire ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukakinzade_Ahmed_Pasha


    But never the less, Dukagjini was a noble Albanian family and it is Leke Dukagjini credit to codify Kanun that tribes will later use as law and codex principle.



    Albanian principalities:





    - Only after Dusan Empire started to decay most of these principalities and feudal noble land lords manage to pop up and become stronger.
    - Only after these principalities and and local noble families started to decay and vanish under Ottoman conquer, clans formed inside of Ottoman Empire out of local villagers in order to protect their cattle lands.
    - Dukagjini was not tribal but noble Albanian family, tribes later used its Kanun codex as law and codex hence why they call them tribes of Leke Dukagjini.







    Yes i agree with this, this only proves what i was initially claiming that tribes formed out of regular N Albania, Montenegro and Malësia e Madhe population rather then out of some magical emigration out of Bosnia or more specifically Hercegovina. These names that you mention are only some of the biggest and most dominant families in the area. But only after fall of Albanian and Serbian noble families where in fact most of them later joined with Ottomans. Only then tribes as we know them formed under the Ottoman Empire and were allowed to practice their laws and traditions. They formed out of local sheep handlers.

    These are not "tribal names" as you say but rather local family names, thet will later develop into tribes that you know.
    Similar thing was happening in Serbia and Montenegro also, until all of them finally fall and joined as vassals to Ottomans.

    The crumbling Serbian Empire under Stefan Uroš V (called "the Weak") was to be of little resistance to the powerful Ottoman Empire. In light of conflicts and decentralization of the realm, the Ottomans defeated the Serbs at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371, making vassals of the southern governors, soon thereafter, the Emperor died. As Uroš was childless and the nobility could not agree on the rightful heir, the Empire was ruled by semi-independent provincial lords, who often were in feuds with each other. The most powerful of these, Tsar Lazar, a Duke of present-day central Serbia (which had not yet come under the Ottoman yoke), stood against
    the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. The result was indecisive, but it resulted in the subsequent fall of Serbia.

    The administration was divided in the following:





    After both Albanian and Serbian nobilities fall down and started to serve Ottomans, clans (tribe, fis) formed in 15 century inside of Ottoman Empire out of local sheep handling population. They were allowed to practice their own laws from Kanun and traditions that were specific and native to that part of Ottoman Empire, more specific, Montenegro, Albania, Malesia e Madhe and surroundings. They are just regular Albanian and Montenegrin villagers that used Ottoman Empire to expand because until then they were under medieval feudal command and ownership of noble Albanian and Serbian families that used to ally and marry in between them while exploiting local population.
    You are totally wrong in everything you say in this post. You don't know the history of Albania, at least not this part that we are talking, the middle age. The problem is that you like many other Albanians of diaspora learn the history of Albania and Albanians reading crapipedia.
    And to illustrate that you are wrong i will make you one single question. When Araniti joined the Ottomans and fought against Scanderbeg?

    P. S
    Kasem Biçoku is used as a reference in one of the articles cited by you. I start to doubt that you don't even read Wikipedia but simply copy-paste from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    You are totally wrong in everything you say in this post. You don't know the history of Albania, at least not this part that we are talking, the middle age. The problem is that you like many other Albanians of diaspora learn the history of Albania and Albanians reading crapipedia.
    And to illustrate that you are wrong i will make you one single question. When Araniti joined the Ottomans and fought against Scanderbeg?

    P. S
    Kasem Biçoku is used as a reference in one of the articles cited by you. I start to doubt that you don't even read Wikipedia but simply copy-paste from it.

    After the Dukagjini family left the League of Lezhë in 1450, together with Arianiti family, they concluded a peace with Ottoman Empire and started their actions against Skanderbeg.[25]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjini_family

    https://books.google.hr/books/conten...hG2o0uw&edge=0



    Laberia boy im busy now i deal with u later, in meanwhile you are free to type, you know that i have special love for you



    BTW im not from Diaspora, im hard core Balkan lived thru 3 wars and im still here. Never emigrated, i was in Shkodra 2 days ago and perhaps i am starting to work in Tirana soon, i was always around my Laberia boy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    After the Dukagjini family left the League of Lezhë in 1450, together with Arianiti family, they concluded a peace with Ottoman Empire and started their actions against Skanderbeg.[25]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjini_family

    https://books.google.hr/books/conten...hG2o0uw&edge=0



    Laberia boy im busy now i deal with u later, in meanwhile you are free to type, you know that i have special love for you



    BTW im not from Diaspora, im hard core Balkan lived thru 3 wars and im still here. Never emigrated, i was in Shkodra 2 days ago and perhaps i am starting to work in Tirana soon, i was always around my Laberia boy.
    Dema, my dear Wiki boy. Read what your source say:
    Frashëri 1964, p. 78: "In 1450 two powerful aristocratic families, Arianits and Dukagjins, left the league.... Skanderbeg tried to keep them near him. But his efforts failed. The Dukagjins not only did not accede, but on the contrary, concluded peace with Sultan and began to plot against Skanderbeg
    And i want to repeat my question again:
    When Araniti joined the Ottomans and fought against Scanderbeg?
    P. S.
    You are from diaspora, you live in Croatia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Dema, my dear Wiki boy. Read what your source say:

    And i want to repeat my question again:


    P. S.
    You are from diaspora, you live in Croatia.


    That is not true, Croatia and Kosovo only recently separated and therefore Croatia become "Diaspora" lol. Until 28 years ago it was all one state with no borders.
    My father was against his own will sent to furthest part near borders with Slovenia. Where i was born under the circumstances.

    I was always aware of my people and nation and ethnicity and while even Croats were emigrating i lived thru 3 wars and stayed here.
    Shit i witnessed you cant even imagine. I dont care about Wikipedia if you dont agree with something write them complain.

    Dont you diaspora this and that me, have you heard me ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    That is not true, Croatia and Kosovo only recently separated and therefore Croatia become "Diaspora" lol. Until 28 years ago it was all one state with no borders.
    My father was against his own will sent to furthest part near borders with Slovenia. Where i was born under the circumstances.

    I was always aware of my people and nation and ethnicity and while even Croats were emigrating i lived thru 3 wars and stayed here.
    Shit i witnessed you cant even imagine. I dont care about Wikipedia if you dont agree with something write them complain.

    Dont you diaspora this and that me, have you heard me ?
    Well, forget the post scriptum. Concentrate in what we are discussing here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    Well, forget the post scriptum. Concentrate in what we are discussing here.
    Year 1450 is mentioned. And that is not even relevant did they fight or not against Skanderbeg, there is so much noble families and things going on most of them were Ottoman Vassals and backstabbing one another.

    What was important for me to win is in two arguments,

    1. Albanian and Montenegrin clans formed out of local population rather then from Bosnian or Hercegovinian migrants.

    2. Second one is bonus that clans were formed and founctioned as such under Ottoman Empire, which logically until then territory was held among various noble families, as for example long Ottoman resisting one Kastrioti noble family.

    The rest is less important to me, if you think i am mistaking somewhere you are free to quote me and fully elaborate with your explanation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    Year 1450 is mentioned. And that is not even relevant did they fight or not against Skanderbeg, there is so much noble families and things going on most of them were Ottoman Vassals and backstabbing one another.
    It's important Dema because you are repeating the same error, you are trying to generalize. Even Brenton Tarrant knew who was Arianiti.
    What was important for me to win is in two arguments,
    1. Albanian and Montenegrin clans formed out of local population rather then from Bosnian or Hercegovinian migrants.
    I agree with this. This theory of migration from BH it's a BS. History is a different thing from the folktales of the grandfather told to the kids before sleeping. I want to add only something, Montenegrin tribes are basically slavized Albanian tribes with some Vlach and slav influence.
    2. Second one is bonus that clans were formed and founctioned as such under Ottoman Empire, which logically until then territory was held among various noble families, as for example long Ottoman resisting one Kastrioti noble family.
    The rest is less important to me, if you think i am mistaking somewhere you are free to quote me and fully elaborate with your explanation.
    No, clans were not formed under Ottoman Empire. There is a reason why Albanians survived until in our days. We didn't had our Kingdoms or Empires, our church(we were divided in Catholic and Orthodox) and as a consequence we didn't had an written language. The reason why we survived, apart the geography of the territory, is exactly in this clan organization system and in this set of laws called in Albanian doket. These clans existed in North and South Albania. And these people refuted to obey to any foreign rule and preferred to govern themselves with their laws.
    This system of tribes produced the feudal elite that ruled in Albanian territories and outside these territories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    It's important Dema because you are repeating the same error, you are trying to generalize. Even Brenton Tarrant knew who was Arianiti.

    I agree with this. This theory of migration from BH it's a BS. History is a different thing from the folktales of the grandfather told to the kids before sleeping. I want to add only something, Montenegrin tribes are basically slavized Albanian tribes with some Vlach and slav influence.

    No, clans were not formed under Ottoman Empire. There is a reason why Albanians survived until in our days. We didn't had our Kingdoms or Empires, our church(we were divided in Catholic and Orthodox) and as a consequence we didn't had an written language. The reason why we survived, apart the geography of the territory, is exactly in this clan organization system and in this set of laws called in Albanian doket. These clans existed in North and South Albania. And these people refuted to obey to any foreign rule and preferred to govern themselves with their laws.
    This system of tribes produced the feudal elite that ruled in Albanian territories and outside these territories.


    I liked your post but you are wrong. I know there was pre Ottoman tribes. But tribes we are debating here expanded under Ottoman Empire and in fact entire Albania and all these territories were in that time under Ottomans, including entire Serbia, Bosnia, Greece and so on.

    These tribes were barely anywhere mentioned except of few family members but under Ottomans their took large portions of territories and started to rapidly expand all the way to Macedonia, Kosovo, Greece, Serbia and so on.

    You have no clue about genetics neither about history, even tho i agree about you that Wikipedia is usually trash, there is quite enough also good texts, i seen many of your references they are also fairy tales.
    What magic mushrooms have you take? Or perhaps you visited Lazarat lately which would actually positively rehabilitate you?

    It is not Church fault neither Catholic or Orthodox, neither Ottomans but rather sometimes is good to look at yourself in mirror or from third perspective and think about everything.


    You know things yourself, you seen this 1997 revolt and how everything looked like. You are probably still stressed out, hence why you dont go outside of house hjehehehe.

    Im joking Laberia, you know i like you, when i come to Lazarat i will invite you for coffee.

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    3 out of 3 members found this post helpful.
    Out of the Albanian clans that made it to the middle of the 20th century, the great majority formed during the first 2 centuries of the Ottoman rule. The Ottoman authorities even played a role in the establishment of these clans as political entities.

    However, Albanian clans existed before the Ottoman Empire, and there are clear historical sources for this. Two examples:

    1- Hoti. They existed as a political formation at least since they fought the Balshaj principality and negotiated with Venice since the decade of 1410: https://books.google.com/books/about...page&q&f=false.

    2- Berisha. They have also been recorded to have reached an agreement with Venice between 1464 and 1468: https://poj.peeters-leuven.be/conten...93&url=article.

    There are many other clans that did not survive until the 20th century, but have been attested as such in the pre-Ottoman period, such as Tuzi. The clans of today's Montenegro, many of which had not been fully slavicized yet, due to being closer to Venetian controlled lands as well as Ragusa, have historical records at least since the 13th century.

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    Dema, i am not from Lazarat and this part of your post about mushrooms, etc, it's not serious. Probably you are confusing me with other people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I liked your post but you are wrong. I know there was pre Ottoman tribes. But tribes we are debating here expanded under Ottoman Empire and in fact entire Albania and all these territories were in that time under Ottomans, including entire Serbia, Bosnia, Greece and so on.
    These tribes were barely anywhere mentioned except of few family members but under Ottomans their took large portions of territories and started to rapidly expand all the way to Macedonia, Kosovo, Greece, Serbia and so on.
    Ok, since you insist. Can you explain this expansion of this Northern tribes? Where is their original tribal region and how these tribes expanded Macedonia, Kosovo, Greece, Serbia and so on?
    You have no clue about genetics
    Yes it's true, because i don't see how much genetics will help in understanding history, especially if we take in consideration some recent genetic studies who are far from being scientific papers.
    neither about history,
    Well, i have some modest knowledge about certain periods of history.
    even tho i agree about you that Wikipedia is usually trash, there is quite enough also good texts,
    And why than you quote Wikipedia in this discussion, without even controlling the accuracy of the article?
    i seen many of your references they are also fairy tales.
    Nobody is perfect. But you will help me if you show me one example of these fairy tales.
    What magic mushrooms have you take? Or perhaps you visited Lazarat lately which would actually positively rehabilitate you?
    Dema, why are you so obsessed with mushrooms?
    It is not Church fault neither Catholic or Orthodox, neither Ottomans but rather sometimes is good to look at yourself in mirror or from third perspective and think about everything.
    Why you put in my mouth words that i never said? If you don't understand my post, ask me to explain it better.
    You know things yourself, you seen this 1997 revolt and how everything looked like. You are probably still stressed out, hence why you dont go outside of house hjehehehe.
    What have to do Lek Dukagjini with Zani Çaushi?
    Im joking Laberia,
    Meanwhile i am very serious.
    you know i like you, when i come to Lazarat i will invite you for coffee.
    It will be a pleasure Dema but i am not from Lazarat and i have never been in Lazarat and if you are interested for mushrooms, sorry but i can't help you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    BTW im not from Diaspora, im hard core Balkan lived thru 3 wars and im still here. Never emigrated, i was in Shkodra 2 days ago and perhaps i am starting to work in Tirana soon, i was always around my Laberia boy.
    This M205* intruder is becoming an eyesore. Stay quiet and beg to be accepted as you're the last one to decide when our tribes were formed and where they originated. OUR tribes, not yours.

    I hope you're never coming to Tirana.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    We got our first Saudi Arabian sample who is CTS1969 positive!
    Looks like he upped the entire J2-M205 TMRCA to 6000 years together with CTS1969 TMRCA, also looks like he is basal CTS1969?

    As it can be seen on Yfull he is from Mekkah, Saudi Arabia. Mashallah! https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M205/
    We have enough people like you there.

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    Nvm i wont deal with low people, but dont forget that! Be quiet now.
    Last edited by Dema; 17-04-19 at 13:38.

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    I am an inch from permanently closing this thread. Just keep it up.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    You have unfortunately misunderstood also somewhat twisted things. No one is saying that Berisha surname was not mentioned earlier. Or in fact that Berisha family was not present in some positions in area, but when talking of Albanian tribes, only in 15 century they developed as such and gained tribal spirit. From 15 to 17 century to be more precise. You obviously dont understand that tribes were allowed to practice their laws and traditions under the Ottoman state and Ottomans did not interrupt them neither interfeire.



    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanun_(Albania)
    How though? Tribalism is literally one of the oldest things there is. Albanians were in clan systems long before the Ottomans. Sure, certain aspects to tribal practice may evolve. Yet, it doesn’t negate its existence. There’s also plenty that existed we have no record for. It does not negate its existence since we didn’t write it down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dibran View Post
    How though? Tribalism is literally one of the oldest things there is. Albanians were in clan systems long before the Ottomans. Sure, certain aspects to tribal practice may evolve. Yet, it doesn’t negate its existence. There’s also plenty that existed we have no record for. It does not negate its existence since we didn’t write it down.


    I agree with everything you said, i never claimed the opposite.

    But tribes of Leke Dukagjini and later tribes for sure developed as such under Ottoman Empire borders, also their main expansion and success happened under Ottoman Empire borders.

    Before that period these tribes were barely known and they were local Albanian/Montenegrin population under control of until then noble families that ruled the area, noble families which are very well known. I aint repeat everything as parrot now.


    Anyways, my best regards Dibran !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ownstyler View Post
    Out of the Albanian clans that made it to the middle of the 20th century, the great majority formed during the first 2 centuries of the Ottoman rule. The Ottoman authorities even played a role in the establishment of these clans as political entities.

    However, Albanian clans existed before the Ottoman Empire, and there are clear historical sources for this. Two examples:

    1- Hoti. They existed as a political formation at least since they fought the Balshaj principality and negotiated with Venice since the decade of 1410: https://books.google.com/books/about...page&q&f=false.

    2- Berisha. They have also been recorded to have reached an agreement with Venice between 1464 and 1468: https://poj.peeters-leuven.be/conten...93&url=article.

    There are many other clans that did not survive until the 20th century, but have been attested as such in the pre-Ottoman period, such as Tuzi. The clans of today's Montenegro, many of which had not been fully slavicized yet, due to being closer to Venetian controlled lands as well as Ragusa, have historical records at least since the 13th century.


    I agree with this also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LABERIA View Post
    It's important Dema because you are repeating the same error, you are trying to generalize. Even Brenton Tarrant knew who was Arianiti..


    I gave you very specific answer and you said nothing but commented on some stupidity about that New Zealand massacre which is obviously your top in understanding anything in life.


    So let me repeat my answer since you were so stubborn to hear it:



    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    After the Dukagjini family left the League of Lezhë in 1450, together with Arianiti family, they concluded a peace with Ottoman Empire and started their actions against Skanderbeg.[25]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjini_family

    https://books.google.hr/books/conten...hG2o0uw&edge=0

    You asked 5 times in what year it happened and it clearly says in 1450 after they abandoned League of Lezhe.
    Here you can read how Arianiti and Dukagjini allied with Ottomans and fought against Skenderbeg, and dont forget that Dukagjini was before that allied with Serbian prince/despot...


    And how Albanian tribes expanded, i suggest you start reading books, wikipedia, or google rather then asking stupid questions here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I am an inch from permanently closing this thread. Just keep it up.
    This thread is useless Angela. IMO you should close it as it's creating only confusion and not solving anything.

    This Dema guy is using haplogroups to prove if specific tribes moved from point A to point B 500-600 years ago. As if yDna is a GPS.

    Plus, he has an agenda and is desperately trying to prove that Slavs entered Bosnia and split the old Balkan into 2 parts and because he believes his haplogroup was forced split into 2 parts by the incoming Slavs and almost doesnt exist in the middle (Bosnia) then he is of Paleo Balkan origin.




    But on the other hand, he has a hardcore pro-Ottoman agenda and cherishes the good ol' times under Baba (daddy Ottoman) and tries to convince US that OUR tribes benefited and grew strong under them, while reality is that we were forced to live like savages in steep mountains with our population mostly massacred, women and children mostly sent to Italy (eventually becoming Arbereshe), and remained backward while Europe was advancing.

    Little does he know that only in my region (Shkodra county) there were 7 towns/cities before the Ottomans and nowadays there's just 1 desperate town (Shkodra) and several scattered mountain and lowland villages living in extreme poverty.

    P.S. At least his fake maps will serve the purpose of reminding people that the theory that some people came from Bosnia and set up their own families/clans in Montenegro isn't so far fetched and nor it is such an exodus. Look at the distance of Podgorica from the Bosnian border and compare it with the distance to Kosovo. They made it from there to Kosovo and further but they couldn't have made it from Herzegovina to Montenegro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    ....



    I suggest to everyone to ignore this emigrant kid, he escaped in Switzerland with his parents and even Albanian and Kosovar populations are often ashamed of some examples like this extremely vulgar person.
    He is no Albanian by no means but rather Suisse emigrant that is role-playing Albanian online. He lives in his mother apartment and she pays his internet bills.

    However there are great examples of our diaspora people so i wont generalise but everyone knows what am i talking about.

    He has no clue about genetics neither history, and he is just butthurt because i said on other forum that E-v13 have potato noses, which was obvious joke but seems his ego cant take it.
    He thinks that i hate E-v13 because i said that they have Potato neses when he is too stupid to understand tr0lling and joke, which was btw said few years ago.

    My best friends are E-v13, he is E-v13 probably by accident, he should ask his mom rather then his dad. She would know better : )

    He is trying to accuse me for being a Muslim when in fact i am just a normal regular Albanian guy, i am neither extremist, but rather very scientific. He has mental issues because over 80 % of Albanians are Muslims and he cant stand to hear word Ottoman Empire because he connects it with Islam while if there was no Ottomans Albanians would all be servicised just as Skenderbeg was half Serb with all his brothers, sisters and nephews bearing Slavic Serbian names.


    This guy even begged Aspurg Bosnian/Montenegrin Serb to be accepted and called him brother and kissed his ass because they are same clade of E-v13, while last thing in life Montenegrin Serb Aspurg wanted is to hear Šiptar calling him a brother.
    He was rather interested into Huno-Avar theory of origin rather then having anything with Albanians.


    This guy lives in Switzerland and is probably Muslim himself, just as more them 90 % of these fake Albanian Christians on internet which are mostly Albanian Muslim emigrants with identity crisis and self hate.


    We have at least few complexed emigrants like this guy in our anthropological community, i can name them easily. If he is not one of them he should join into their wild-pack since he would fit there and they are strong only attacking in packs like some wild dogs.


    BTW both maps he quoted were not made by me, one was made by Albanian community member from Foleja, and J2-M205 map was made by Serbian community member. I just copy pasted both maps. What a imbecile... There is nothing wrong with maps btw, its just samples mapped.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dema View Post
    I suggest to everyone to ignore this emigrant kid, he escaped in Switzerland with his parents and even Albanian and Kosovar populations are often ashamed of some examples like this extremely vulgar person.
    He is no Albanian by no means but rather Suisse emigrant that is role-playing Albanian online. He lives in his mother apartment and she pays his internet bills.

    However there are great examples of our diaspora people so i wont generalise but everyone knows what am i talking about.

    He has no clue about genetics neither history, and he is just butthurt because i said on other forum that E-v13 have potato noses, which was obvious joke but seems his ego cant take it.
    He thinks that i hate E-v13 because i said that they have Potato neses when he is too stupid to understand tr0lling and joke, which was btw said few years ago.

    My best friends are E-v13, he is E-v13 probably by accident, he should ask his mom rather then his dad. She would know better : )

    He is trying to accuse me for being a Muslim when in fact i am just a normal regular Albanian guy, i am neither extremist, but rather very scientific. He has mental issues because over 80 % of Albanians are Muslims and he cant stand to hear word Ottoman Empire because he connects it with Islam while if there was no Ottomans Albanians would all be servicised just as Skenderbeg was half Serb with all his brothers, sisters and nephews bearing Slavic Serbian names.


    This guy even begged Aspurg Bosnian/Montenegrin Serb to be accepted and called him brother and kissed his ass because they are same clade of E-v13, while last thing in life Montenegrin Serb Aspurg wanted is to hear Šiptar calling him a brother.
    He was rather interested into Huno-Avar theory of origin rather then having anything with Albanians.


    This guy lives in Switzerland and is probably Muslim himself, just as more them 90 % of these fake Albanian Christians on internet which are mostly Albanian Muslim emigrants with identity crisis and self hate.


    We have at least few complexed emigrants like this guy in our anthropological community, i can name them easily. If he is not one of them he should join into their wild-pack since he would fit there and they are strong only attacking in packs like some wild dogs.


    BTW both maps he quoted were not made by me, one was made by Albanian community member from Foleja, and J2-M205 map was made by Serbian community member. I just copy pasted both maps. What a imbecile... There is nothing wrong with maps btw, its just samples mapped.
    I didn't escape to Switzerland as I grew up in Shkodra then in Tirana and there was no war there. My parents have never left Albania and still live there. I could have said that it's actually me who supports my family and even though I earn more than them luckily they don't need my help at all.

    And no, after my studies and the first 2 years of work I don't live in Switzerland per se but I work for a Swiss based international company so I get to see Switzerland and Albania every 2 months, as well as Latin America, Middle East, Singapore, and Hong Kong. Again, not escaping from anyone. You confuse my people with your people. We're not the kind to accept orders and settle in Turkey or get an option by Tito and abandon our homes and the elderly for the sweet rich West.

    I don't care about your potato nose and African lips ideas, I care about people like you pretending to be Albanian and spreading their propaganda among us.

    Even the least educated Albanian knows that the Ottomans didn't "save" us from becoming Slavicized but rather facilitated the assimilation. My numbers can be slightly wrong but any other Albanian that currently holds the figure can correct me. In 3000 schools in Albanian lands, 1500 were Greek, 1000 were Turkish, 500 were Serbian, 30 were Vlach, and only 1 was in Albanian (which was closed down immediately). Like I said I might have gotten some numbers slightly wrong because I can't remember, but what matters is ONLY ONE ALBANIAN SCHOOL. So much about saving us from getting assimilated.

    As if we don't know how many Albanians became Bosnians in Montenegro and South Serbia.

    My family and my entire region is 100% Catholic but I am simply Albanian and I don't identify with anything else.

    Anyone who calls me brother (as Aspurg did) will receive the same in return and everyone that shows kindness and peaceful intentions towards me will receive the same and even more from my side, be them Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosnians, Greeks, etc. I believe in manly values and honour and I pride myself for having great friends from across the border.

    In the J2b1 thread you stated that it wasn't you who created the maps but rather some guy called Peter Demic. Hmmmm...Dema, Demic. You were born in Slovenia and live in Croatia. Suspicious!

    So, why you bothered answering everything non important but didn't stay on topic and argue why some Albanians couldn't have come from Herzegovina to Montenegro when the distance is the same as with Kosovo?

    I mean your family made it all the way from Middle East to Balkans, then recently from Kosovo to Croatia. Don't you know that people move around and are surprisingly skilled in covering long distances?!

  25. #100
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Country: Albania



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nik View Post
    I didn't escape to Switzerland as I grew up in Shkodra then in Tirana and there was no war there. My parents have never left Albania and still live there. I could have said that it's actually me who supports my family and even though I earn more than them luckily they don't need my help at all.

    And no, after my studies and the first 2 years of work I don't live in Switzerland per se but I work for a Swiss based international company so I get to see Switzerland and Albania every 2 months, as well as Latin America, Middle East, Singapore, and Hong Kong. Again, not escaping from anyone. You confuse my people with your people. We're not the kind to accept orders and settle in Turkey or get an option by Tito and abandon our homes and the elderly for the sweet rich West.

    I don't care about your potato nose and African lips ideas, I care about people like you pretending to be Albanian and spreading their propaganda among us.

    Even the least educated Albanian knows that the Ottomans didn't "save" us from becoming Slavicized but rather facilitated the assimilation. My numbers can be slightly wrong but any other Albanian that currently holds the figure can correct me. In 3000 schools in Albanian lands, 1500 were Greek, 1000 were Turkish, 500 were Serbian, 30 were Vlach, and only 1 was in Albanian (which was closed down immediately). Like I said I might have gotten some numbers slightly wrong because I can't remember, but what matters is ONLY ONE ALBANIAN SCHOOL. So much about saving us from getting assimilated.

    As if we don't know how many Albanians became Bosnians in Montenegro and South Serbia.

    My family and my entire region is 100% Catholic but I am simply Albanian and I don't identify with anything else.

    Anyone who calls me brother (as Aspurg did) will receive the same in return and everyone that shows kindness and peaceful intentions towards me will receive the same and even more from my side, be them Montenegrins, Serbs, Bosnians, Greeks, etc. I believe in manly values and honour and I pride myself for having great friends from across the border.

    In the J2b1 thread you stated that it wasn't you who created the maps but rather some guy called Peter Demic. Hmmmm...Dema, Demic. You were born in Slovenia and live in Croatia. Suspicious!

    So, why you bothered answering everything non important but didn't stay on topic and argue why some Albanians couldn't have come from Herzegovina to Montenegro when the distance is the same as with Kosovo?

    I mean your family made it all the way from Middle East to Balkans, then recently from Kosovo to Croatia. Don't you know that people move around and are surprisingly skilled in covering long distances?!

    Be even Rastafari if you want, your religion is your private thing, that's why i said 90 %, you are these 10 %. What are you bragging about Shkodra when i was there 3 days ago, strongest clans in Shkodra and Tuzi are my friends.

    You are nobody, just some emigrant kid wanting some attention.


    J2-M205 has 1700 BCE Sidonian aDNA, we have even older nearby Jordanian mountain 2500 BCE aDNA.
    Alphabet you are using now is based on ancient Phoenician alphabet. You little illiterate and stubborn Illyrian, its no wonder you refuse to read and write, Illyrians were just like that.

    We mummified ourselves in pre-Ptolemy 700 BCE Egypt inside of pyramid while you were handling sheeps.

    We fought battles inside of Roman arena in middle of England (100-400 CE aDNA) while you handled sheeps.

    Each time you hear J2-M205 you need to stand up on your feet and be silent 1 minute in sign of respect.

    Now stop raging and behaving like some jealous spoiled kid.

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