Malisor and N Albanian clans and their origin

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At least back it up with some minimal proves

Hes an Apricity t-roll. Ignore that budal. Boletini was most likely R1b, being those tested near his place of origin with the same Fis relation came out we such. And he was probably the most identifiable Albanian clades BY611
 
You're still using those same arguements despite I explained these things?

All ancient Balkan samples found in Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia were not I2a Din and those ancient Balkan markers are almost non existant among South Slavs but some are very common in Albanians therefor you cannot use YDNA frequency of those modern populations in those modern areas to claim some Albanian people did not come from there.


I am literally starting to believe that you are mentally disturbed or is there something I am missing ?
 
Hes an Apricity t-roll. Ignore that budal. Boletini was most likely R1b, being those tested near his place of origin with the same Fis relation came out we such. And he was probably the most identifiable Albanian clades BY611
In my opinion the Boletini were likely R-PF7563 like most from the Shala clan, people from nearby villages tested as such. So he would've been R1b but not BY611. Some Serbs believe that he was I2a1b because of how some Shala from Decan tested as such, though they forget that the Boletini moved from Isniq and not Decan itself. They originate from the Shala highlands of Dukagjin ultimately. Without testing Isa's family we won't know for sure, a family from a nearby village tested as J2b-PH1751 iirc so that could indicate something. But I personally think they were R-PF7563.

Even if he was I2a1b, Serbs claiming him as Serbian would be absurd. By this logic we could claim all Serbs that fall under Albanian clusters like the Serbian Kuci/Kuqi members for example and many other Serbs. Its stupid to claim someone as yours solely on Y-DNA, especially when that person was a nationalistic patriot that fought for his homeland.
 
In my opinion the Boletini were likely R-PF7563 like most from the Shala clan, people from nearby villages tested as such. So he would've been R1b but not BY611. Some Serbs believe that he was I2a1b because of how some Shala from Decan tested as such, though they forget that the Boletini moved from Isniq and not Decan itself. They originate from the Shala highlands of Dukagjin ultimately. Without testing Isa's family we won't know for sure, a family from a nearby village tested as J2b-PH1751 iirc so that could indicate something. But I personally think they were R-PF7563.

True. Check out Foleja! I just got that guy from Kosova as a match. Including my father. He most likely belongs to the Dibra Cluster. Shot him an email.
 
I cant believe the level of posting of some people...
Anyways lets get back to the important things.

Illyrians and ancient DNA is not not important in this case. As we are not talking about Bosnian Illyrians 2000 - 2500 years ago neither about some very ancient people, but rather about modern North Albanian clans that developed since 15 century and later. From 15-17 century (Berisha being oldest in 15 century according to Noel Malcolm book, history of Kosovo). So its people from 400 - 600 years ago.

Looks like some people are forgetting arrival of Slavs and that especially in that time but even for centuries before Bosnia was exclusively Slavic territory.
Looks like some people didnt read a single book before posting here.

Therefore how its possible that all these ancestors with classic Albanian haplogroups arrived from Bosnia and Hercegovina where as we stated I2a goes up to 70 % and other language then Albanian was spoken?

Even Noel Malcolm in his book concluded that clans were formed out of local and regular N Albanian and Malësia e Madhe population in order to protect their cattle lands.
And genetics fully agrees with this statement of Noel Malcolm in his history of Kosovo book.


I only dont know what is bigger stupidity when i hear Albanians say that 15 century Albanian clans formed out of Bosnian Illyrians (trying to ridiculously backup some fairy tale that has no logic at all), or Sanxhak Albanians when they are claiming that they are remains of 14 century rule of king Tvrtko of Bosnia that has actually had Sanxhak under his rule in that time.

Out of these two stupidities, i would have to say that Albanians claiming Bosnian Illyrians arrived here in 15 century and formed clans is absolutely most utter trash thing i heard in my life.
 
I cant believe the level of posting of some people...
Anyways lets get back to the important things.

Illyrians and ancient DNA is not not important in this case. As we are not talking about Bosnian Illyrians 2000 - 2500 years ago neither about some very ancient people, but rather about modern North Albanian clans that developed since 15 century and later. From 15-17 century (Berisha being oldest in 15 century according to Noel Malcolm book, history of Kosovo). So its people from 400 - 600 years ago.

Looks like some people are forgetting arrival of Slavs and that especially in that time but even for centuries before Bosnia was exclusively Slavic territory.
Looks like some people didnt read a single book before posting here.

Therefore how its possible that all these ancestors with classic Albanian haplogroups arrived from Bosnia and Hercegovina where as we stated I2a goes up to 70 % and other language then Albanian was spoken?

Even Noel Malcolm in his book concluded that clans were formed out of local and regular N Albanian and Malësia e Madhe population in order to protect their cattle lands.
And genetics fully agrees with this statement of Noel Malcolm in his history of Kosovo book.


I only dont know what is bigger stupidity when i hear Albanians say that 15 century Albanian clans formed out of Bosnian Illyrians (trying to ridiculously backup some fairy tale that has no logic at all), or Sanxhak Albanians when they are claiming that they are remains of 14 century rule of king Tvrtko of Bosnia that has actually had Sanxhak under his rule in that time.

Out of these two stupidities, i would have to say that Albanians claiming Bosnian Illyrians arrived here in 15 century and formed clans is absolutely most utter trash thing i heard in my life.

Sorry, I don't see anyone here yet claiming that northern Albanian clans descent from Bosnia. Some of them may have some Bosnian heritage as well. Vlach language was spoken till late in Croatia and Bosnia's territories , hence I don't see why Albanian couldn't have been spoken. Even if Slavic was the main and dominant language there, it doesn't mean that there weren't other languages spoken along Slavic.
Again, Slavic loanwords into Albanian predates the formation of serbo-croat language, which means that Albanians and Slavs lived side by side before 1000 ad. Bosnia could be part of that habitat.

Noel Malcolm don't understand very good Balkans and its cultural environment
 
Sorry, I don't see anyone here yet claiming that northern Albanian clans descent from Bosnia. Some of them may have some Bosnian heritage as well. Vlach language was spoken till late in Croatia and Bosnia's territories , hence I don't see why Albanian couldn't have been spoken. Even if Slavic was the main and dominant language there, it doesn't mean that there weren't other languages spoken along Slavic.
Again, Slavic loanwords into Albanian predates the formation of serbo-croat language, which means that Albanians and Slavs lived side by side before 1000 ad. Bosnia could be part of that habitat.

Noel Malcolm don't understand very good Balkans and its cultural environment


-There is no record about such event or migration. Not a single proof or logic. Bosnia, Hercegovina and Dinaric Alps are actually Slavic epicenter since Early Slavs arrival in 6-7 century CE.

-Albanian clans formed under Ottoman Empire borders late in 15 century with Berisha being oldest established clan. Its very well known they formed out of Malesia e Madhe and N Albania local population. No need for fairy tales.

-Why you mention year "1000 AD" ? In that time other haplogroups then these found in Albanian clans flourished in Hercegovina.

-You dont understand genetics neither history, and you didn't read Noel Malcolm, dont be ridiculous Piro the Ilir boy.
 
-There is no record about such event or migration. Not a single proof or logic. Bosnia, Hercegovina and Dinaric Alps are actually Slavic epicenter since Early Slavs arrival in 6-7 century CE.

-Albanian clans formed under Ottoman Empire borders late in 15 century with Berisha being oldest established clan. Its very well known they formed out of Malesia e Madhe and N Albania local population. No need for fairy tales.

-Why you mention year "1000 AD" ? In that time other haplogroups then these found in Albanian clans flourished in Hercegovina.

-You dont understand genetics neither history, and you didn't read Noel Malcolm, dont be ridiculous Piro the Ilir boy.

There is no proof of such migrations because history wasn't recorded well back then at such a times so its just a speculation nor am I saying that such migrations occured but the arguement you provided against it aren't arguements either which I have already explained. You don't seem to be able to understand anything no matter how much they are explained to you.

Nobody said those tribes came from those areas but supposedly their founders. Its possible some Malsors came from neighboring areas. Malsia served as a refugee place. Coon mentions this and so does Noel. Its no less credible than the Dacian or Thracian theory.


That some Malsors came from Montenegro, plains of Kosovo and Macedonia is very possible.

Some Dalmatian Latin also touchdd Northern Albania , maybe some migrations from Herzegovina and Bosnia also occured. Which also Noel does mention.

The arguements you provided against it aren't any arguements.


You should consider to get a new hobby.
 
There is no proof of such migrations because history wasn't recorded well back then at such a times so its just a speculation nor am I saying that such migrations occured but the arguement you provided against it aren't arguements either which I have already explained. You don't seem to be able to understand anything no matter how much they are explained to you.

Nobody said those tribes came from those areas but supposedly their founders. Its possible some Malsors came from neighboring areas. Malsia served as a refugee place. Coon mentions this and so does Noel. Its no less credible than the Dacian or Thracian theory.


That some Malsors came from Montenegro, plains of Kosovo and Macedonia is very possible.

Some Dalmatian Latin also touchdd Northern Albania , maybe some migrations from Herzegovina and Bosnia also occured. Which also Noel does mention.

The arguements you provided against it aren't any arguements.


You should consider to get a new hobby.


Hello Albert, did you take your medication?
 
Lol. There are almost no Albanian tribes that have tradition of coming from Bosnia or Hercegovina nor their founders so your thread was a fail from the very start. This is only said about one tribe or two , I think it was Hoti or something and some Montenigrin Vlach tribes like Piperi. Other than that most Albanian tribes don't have tradition of coming from there. It's possible those people could of come from there even during epicenter of Slavic rule , some natives could of survived in those areas. I don't understand why this is so important to you other than that you have no life and enjoy arguing on the internet about meaningless stuff.

It is said Shala or their founders came from plains of Kosovo which is very plausible. Many Malsors did come from neighboring areas, maybe not Bosnia.

What was nonsense is Dacians coming from Romania and into Albanian lands and replacing Ilyrians. People like you did not lift a finger about such theories but some tribes coming from here and there seems to bother you because you are a person with no life.

Get a job or something.
 
Lol. There are almost no Albanian tribes that have tradition of coming from Bosnia or Hercegovina nor their founders so your thread was a fail from the very start. This is only said about one tribe or two , I think it was Hoti or something and some Montenigrin Vlach tribes like Piperi. Other than that most Albanian tribes don't have tradition of coming from there. It's possible those people could of come from there even during epicenter of Slavic rule , some natives could of survived in those areas. I don't understand why this is so important to you other than that you have no life and enjoy arguing on the internet about meaningless stuff.

It is said Shala or their founders came from plains of Kosovo which is very plausible. Many Malsors did come from neighboring areas, maybe not Bosnia.

What was nonsense is Dacians coming from Romania and into Albanian lands and replacing Ilyrians. People like you did not lift a finger about such theories but some tribes coming from here and there seems to bother you because you are a person with no life.

Get a job or something.


Please Albert, you were among the first claiming this Hercegovinian origin, even tho i don't blame you, it is oral tradition after all, and you read that somewhere.
I remember explaining all this long ago to you, but you simply refuse to understand things and you are extremely stubborn.

You even raged so much over some stupid discussion (Guri Gashit - Krasniqi tribe STRs, TMRCA, difference, CDY value, etc..) we had on private that you started to lie that i was bothering you with Y-DNA upgrades and stuff.
When in fact we should have had just friendly conversation, your ego was too big to accept facts even tho i was right. I don't understand why people are like that. When someone proves me that they are right i always shake their hand and admit it. You are such a drama queen, i know you so good. But when we meet live you were completely the opposite. I dont get this online behavior tbh.

You were imagining things that someone is spying you, and searching your name online on social networks so you asked to be removed from Albanian project. You even contacted me over facebook claiming someone is spying on you. I just hope you are better.
I wont even comment stuff you were saying on Apricity because after all i still consider you good guy.

Dont forget that you even contacted FTDNA and asked your results and your sample ID to be deleted and your sample to be destroyed.

You used to be my closest autosomal relative, now your name vanished and they indeed destroyed your sample.

You claimed this long ago, in that time i didn't even hear for these oral traditions but it was clear by genetics and by history that it is virtually impossible.

You have some weird need to finally beat me in some argument so you can feel satisfied, which i fully support and i encourage you to beat me in argument and i will for sure shake your hand and congratulate you.
Just this Hercegovinian story is BS, just accept it and move on.


Whats up btw, are you better now? No one was spying you or anything, its all alright Albert, you are safe : )
 
The earliest attestation of any Albanian clan we have is Berisha in 1242, and also 1348. Way before the Ottoman empire.


In documents dated 1242, 22nd of April, Ragusa. Berisha is mentioned in the passage "Nobilibus Viris Dulcinensibus Berissa Comitis".

Also, in 1348 Tsar Dushan mentions Berisha's field (Berishin Dol) in West Kosovo, Peje region.

The thesis that all clans formed during the Ottoman Empire is neatly falsified by this information.



D4MqK4RW0AAW8nw.jpg:large

D4NAI0TWsAAHM2K.jpg:large
 
The earliest attestation of any Albanian clan we have is Berisha in 1242, and also 1348. Way before the Ottoman empire.


In documents dated 1242, 22nd of April, Ragusa. Berisha is mentioned in the passage "Nobilibus Viris Dulcinensibus Berissa Comitis".

Also, in 1348 Tsar Dushan mentions Berisha's field (Berishin Dol) in West Kosovo, Peje region.

The thesis that all clans formed during the Ottoman Empire is neatly falsified by this information.


D4MqK4RW0AAW8nw.jpg:large

D4NAI0TWsAAHM2K.jpg:large





You have unfortunately misunderstood also somewhat twisted things. No one is saying that Berisha surname was not mentioned earlier. Or in fact that Berisha family was not present in some positions in area, but when talking of Albanian tribes, only in 15 century they developed as such and gained tribal spirit. From 15 to 17 century to be more precise. You obviously dont understand that tribes were allowed to practice their laws and traditions under the Ottoman state and Ottomans did not interrupt them neither interfeire.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanun_(Albania)
 
The Kanun is further evidence that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire. Dusan's code was greatly influenced by the Kanun, and in the south there was "Pyrrhus' Kanun", and Leka's Kanun is attested before the existence of Lekë Dukagjini, whos kanun supposedly extends far beyond any of his possessions or territories. Many elements of the Kanun date back to the Bronze Age and dictate honour and tribal law, etc.

We can safely conclude that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire.

8aBMwGQ.jpg
 
We can safely conclude that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire.

Albanian clans surely did exist in pre-Ottoman times. Already in Venetian Cadastre of Scodra from 1416 multiple individuals with clearly tribal names are recorded. For example in 6 separate villages 6 individuals with second name Gruda. This is a clear indication of Gruda already then being a tribal designation. Same goes for Tuzi (Tusi, most of them in village Tuzi), Shkreli (Schereli/Scherelli/Schirelli, many from the village Schirelli), Bushat (19 Bussati and 2 Busati individuals as 2nd name exclusively), Kryezi (Cruessio, Cruesio), Kastrati (6, of those 5 Castrati from Castrati village) etc.
 
Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond
https://books.google.al/books?id=O9s...lt&redir_esc=y

Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas

Albanian Ethnogenesis

The Albanian is by habit and instinct a mountaineer, and the heart of Albania has always beaten most strongly in the tangle of very high mountains in the north of the country. That area has been impenetrable to many foreign armies, and its inhabitants have governed themselves and observed their own laws without paying much regard to the rulers of the lowlands; whether Greek, Roman, Turkish or Italian. The laws were traditional, and they were not written down until recently. The Albanians themselves say that their laws were codified, if one may use that word of oral composition, in the fifteenth century by Lek Dukagjini, and that he was an older contemporary and friend of George Skanderbeg (1403-67), the leader of the heroic resistance against the all-conquering Turks. The achievement of Lek Dukagjni was not to invent laws but to organise the traditional ones of the numerous tribes of the northern part of the country - his own home into a consistent system of law, and to persuade the tribes to adopt it. Since that time the laws have been handed down separately in tribes and in families by oral tradition; and the fact that they still belong recognisably to a codified system is a testimony to the accuracy and strength of an oral transmission, which continued until the mid-twentieth century, when ideological revolutions replaced the code of Lek Dukagjini with that of Enver Hoxha and his colleagues.
In the 1930s the Albanians of the modern state of Albania were only a portion of those who spoke Albanian. Quite apart from the emigrants in Egypt, America and elsewhere, there were large groups of Albanian-speakers in Greece, Italy and Yugoslavia. The most interesting are those who were indigenous to the country but were included in south-western Yugoslavia by the drawing of the frontier in 1912-13.
They have remained completely Albanian in the pre-war sense of the word, retaining their traditional customs and living close to the subsistence level in the hilly country, for instance to the north of Ochrid, where I talked with the peasants of Gorice.
What united this plethora of often warring families and often warring tribes as Albanians was a love of their land, a sense of family unity vis-a-vis Serbs, Bulgars, Greeks and Italians, and a unique language, which belongs, like Greek and Latin, to the Indo-European group of languages but is at a primitive stage of development. This language may be the direct descendant of the Illyrian language, which was spoken by the inhabitants of the north-western part of the Balkans from early in the second millennium B.C. down to the collapse of the Roman Empire If so, it provides an analogy to the survival of Greek today as the direct descendant of Mycenaean Greek.
The gap between Ptolemy and Acropolites is bridged by the mention of "Ducagini d'Arbania" in a seventh-century document at Ragusa (Dubrovnik). These Ducagini instigated a revolt against Byzantine rule in Bosnia and in particular at Ragusa, but they had to submit after the second unsuccessful intervention at Ragusa, to which they were said to have come "de terra ferma," i.e overland (15). The name 'Ducagini' is evidently derived from the Latin 'dux' and the common Albanian name 'Ghin'; indeed an Albanian chieftain in 1281 was referred to as "dux Ginius Tanuschus"(16). Moreover, the leading family of northern Albania from the thirteenth century to the Turkish invasion in the fifteenth century was called 'Dukagjin' (Lek Dukagjini the codifier was one of them), and their properties lay between Lesh (Lissus) and the bend of the Drin. It is here then that we should put the ‘Arbania' of the seventh century. The conclusion that 'Albanians' lived there continuously from the second century to the thirteenth century becomes, I think, unavoidable (17).

(15) Published by V. Makusev, Pamiatniki Dubrovnika (Petrograd, 1867), pp. 307.

main-qimg-d1d267cc52ddf00bbc38d474f1880429




main-qimg-0298fe0375c294cc9dd2c3829c166b21




main-qimg-58b3ead479cc8f186e8949754c596211
 
The Kanun is further evidence that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire. Dusan's code was greatly influenced by the Kanun, and in the south there was "Pyrrhus' Kanun", and Leka's Kanun is attested before the existence of Lekë Dukagjini, whos kanun supposedly extends far beyond any of his possessions or territories. Many elements of the Kanun date back to the Bronze Age and dictate honour and tribal law, etc.

We can safely conclude that clans pre-existed the ottoman empire.

8aBMwGQ.jpg


This proves nothing, and for sure not that tribes were formed before Ottoman Empire lol. This text proves nothing about anything we talked about here.

Wait what, is author of this text trying to connect Alexander the Macedon 350 BC, Pyrrhus the Greek general from 300 BC, and Lekë Dukagjini from 1400 AD from Ottoman period???

This author is a joke, this is something unbelievable to read and unrealistic, its closer to fairy tale then to anything realistic, i hope this is not really released by Albanian Institute of History lol. I mean i seen similar stupidities in Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian school books so this is not surprising me too much.

Author is practically shitting over all Albanian noble families and saying Dukagjini were the most worthy one and he connects them to Phyrrus and Alexander the Great haahahahahhaha , wait what is his name again, Kasem Biçoku, hahahhaa Kasem my dear Kasem, he must have eaten hallucogenic mushrooms before writing this text.

Author does not give a single reference to his ridiculously stupid claims unlike Noel Malcolm who is very very strict in giving references and explanations of additional material to enable further study.
This is so stupid that i am just curious into sources and references to see where he pulled this stupidity from, but i doubt that anyone is so naive to claim this, its more likely this funny guy just made up all this.

Why is this funny guy Kasem Biçoku comparing and trying in a senseless way to connect Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus and Leke Dukagjin who was born 1700 years later will probably remain forever mystery to me.

What most of you but also this "historian" dont understand is that history has its timeline, you cant jump from one place of history to another trying to connect dots that are 2000 years away one from another while ignoring all other dots in between. Do you understand that? This is written as SF roman rather then serious text about history. There is not one single person or serious historian who would consider text written like this serious. This reminds me of Croatian school book stories about Tuga and Buga and Slavic arrival to Dalmatian coast. Its pure SF story.

Truth is that Malesia and surroundings in pre-tribal/Ottoman time were ruled by Albanian and Serbian feudal lords and their principalities.

Only after death of Dušan who was ruler of Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians, after decay of his empire, these principalities managed to pop up like mushrooms and become stronger under lead of local feudal lords.

Dukagjini family actually first allied with Serbs and they begged to serve Serbs and particularly Stefan Lazarević, the Serbian despot and prince. But later they allied with Skenderbeg, only to betray Skenderbeg and in the end ally with Ottomans and serve Ottomans for centuries to come.

After Dukagjini and Arianiti families left League of Lezhe, as allies with Ottomans they fought against Skenderbeg.

Read this :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Lezhë#Background

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekë_Dukagjini


There was also Dukakinoğlu Ahmed Pasha, he is Dukagjini family member, but was proud member of Ottoman Empire ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukakinzade_Ahmed_Pasha


But never the less, Dukagjini was a noble Albanian family and it is Leke Dukagjini credit to codify Kanun that tribes will later use as law and codex principle.



Albanian principalities:





- Only after Dusan Empire started to decay most of these principalities and feudal noble land lords manage to pop up and become stronger.
- Only after these principalities and and local noble families started to decay and vanish under Ottoman conquer, clans formed inside of Ottoman Empire out of local villagers in order to protect their cattle lands.
- Dukagjini was not tribal but noble Albanian family, tribes later used its Kanun codex as law and codex hence why they call them tribes of Leke Dukagjini.



Albanian clans surely did exist in pre-Ottoman times. Already in Venetian Cadastre of Scodra from 1416 multiple individuals with clearly tribal names are recorded. For example in 6 separate villages 6 individuals with second name Gruda. This is a clear indication of Gruda already then being a tribal designation. Same goes for Tuzi (Tusi, most of them in village Tuzi), Shkreli (Schereli/Scherelli/Schirelli, many from the village Schirelli), Bushat (19 Bussati and 2 Busati individuals as 2nd name exclusively), Kryezi (Cruessio, Cruesio), Kastrati (6, of those 5 Castrati from Castrati village) etc.



Yes i agree with this, this only proves what i was initially claiming that tribes formed out of regular N Albania, Montenegro and Malësia e Madhe population rather then out of some magical emigration out of Bosnia or more specifically Hercegovina. These names that you mention are only some of the biggest and most dominant families in the area. But only after fall of Albanian and Serbian noble families where in fact most of them later joined with Ottomans. Only then tribes as we know them formed under the Ottoman Empire and were allowed to practice their laws and traditions. They formed out of local sheep handlers.

These are not "tribal names" as you say but rather local family names, thet will later develop into tribes that you know.
Similar thing was happening in Serbia and Montenegro also, until all of them finally fall and joined as vassals to Ottomans.

The crumbling Serbian Empire under Stefan Uroš V (called "the Weak") was to be of little resistance to the powerful Ottoman Empire. In light of conflicts and decentralization of the realm, the Ottomans defeated the Serbs at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371, making vassals of the southern governors, soon thereafter, the Emperor died. As Uroš was childless and the nobility could not agree on the rightful heir, the Empire was ruled by semi-independent provincial lords, who often were in feuds with each other. The most powerful of these, Tsar Lazar, a Duke of present-day central Serbia (which had not yet come under the Ottoman yoke), stood against
the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. The result was indecisive, but it resulted in the subsequent fall of Serbia.

The administration was divided in the following:





After both Albanian and Serbian nobilities fall down and started to serve Ottomans, clans (tribe, fis) formed in 15 century inside of Ottoman Empire out of local sheep handling population. They were allowed to practice their own laws from Kanun and traditions that were specific and native to that part of Ottoman Empire, more specific, Montenegro, Albania, Malesia e Madhe and surroundings. They are just regular Albanian and Montenegrin villagers that used Ottoman Empire to expand because until then they were under medieval feudal command and ownership of noble Albanian and Serbian families that used to ally and marry in between them while exploiting local population.
 
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Arvanites in greece that moved there in 1200's lived in clans (fara) and had almost identical tribal laws. Regardless, the statute of shkodra explicitly states alexander the great as source of laws of self governance. And Lekas kanun extends far beyond Dukagjini's territories, and inside territories of far more powerful families like Balsha, Kastriot, Thopia, Muzaka, and Lekas kanun appears even in deep south territories.
We have ample evidence to neatly conclude that tribal law pre-exists Ottomans. Ottoman revisionism doesnt have any weight against this conclusive evidence.
Also many aspects of the Kanun, date back to antiquity, making ottoman genesis impossible, see Margaret Hasluck.
The Ethical Structure of the Kanun and its Relationship with Homeric Epics and Greek Philosophy
https://www.researchgate.net/public...zAD-YsALjRx5MEgW1giKwp6r1FaHvRnP6h8JDEKz3BRGQ
The Scene in The Iliad 18.497-508 (i.e. The Shield of Achilles ) and the Albanian Blood-feud / Kanun
by NGL Hammond.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/0...6HJEbo-UeDOul3f96okmiw3QfmFZV5bhqXcOc4V6rkjVg
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/0...GvKHMJ_GCEMom91q6hN8MKqFN6Qe8aRvByzq6zfvmVB18
 
Arvanites in greece that moved there in 1200's lived in clans (fara) and had almost identical tribal laws. Regardless, the statute of shkodra explicitly states alexander the great as source of laws of self governance. And Lekas kanun extends far beyond Dukagjini's territories, and inside territories of far more powerful families like Balsha, Kastriot, Thopia, Muzaka, and Lekas kanun appears even in deep south territories.
We have ample evidence to neatly conclude that tribal law pre-exists Ottomans. Ottoman revisionism doesnt have any weight against this conclusive evidence.
Also many aspects of the Kanun, date back to antiquity, making ottoman genesis impossible, see Margaret Hasluck.
The Ethical Structure of the Kanun and its Relationship with Homeric Epics and Greek Philosophy
https://www.researchgate.net/public...zAD-YsALjRx5MEgW1giKwp6r1FaHvRnP6h8JDEKz3BRGQ
The Scene in The Iliad 18.497-508 (i.e. The Shield of Achilles ) and the Albanian Blood-feud / Kanun
by NGL Hammond.
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/0...6HJEbo-UeDOul3f96okmiw3QfmFZV5bhqXcOc4V6rkjVg
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/b/basp/0...GvKHMJ_GCEMom91q6hN8MKqFN6Qe8aRvByzq6zfvmVB18



Well, i dont say Leke Dukagjini invented Kanun, after all Skendebeg version of Kanun is most and very similar to Leke one, so there was couple of versions to begin with.
Futhermore i believe that it has roots since Bronze Age or rather more civilised and also tribe like Iron Age.

Also i can agree that similar rules were also written since time of Alexander the Great.

It is even possible that Leke himself is direct paternal ancestor of Alexander the Great, just we dont know that and trying to connect dots like that is very unprofessional and unethical.
It is more realistic to compare it to Skenderbeg or even Dusan code then to Pyrro or Alexander which is way out of their time frame and league.


Albanian, Montenegrin and Serb noble families held territory in that particular time of period, clans as we know formed and expanded under Ottoman Empire. If you find tribal surname somewhere its just family member of these large families that will later develop into tribes as you know them and control the territory in that way under these laws.

I agree that they were guided by the laws coded by one until then noble Albanian family, Dukagjini one, and that these laws are probably ethnic and traditional heritage since ancient times.

I didn't say that all this was invented in Ottoman Period, i rather said its all native and it even existed inside of Ottoman Empire as a special law, culture and ethnic structure where Ottoman laws were not interfering.
It is very delicate and unique situation, not many people can be granted these rights, i believe Illyrians were granted similar rights under Roman Empire. They were for sure more spared and respected then other more geographically distant nations.

After all we know how many Illyrian emperors even ruled empire therefore it is no wonder no one dared to interfere into tribal laws deep inside of their ethnic territories once they accepted Roman Empire.
Similar thing happened within Ottoman Empire where after accepting it, they formed their secure ethnic zone where their own ethnic and traditional laws applied.

Where these laws originate? I dont know, Hellenic, Illyrian, Thracian, Italic and other tribes were probably also guided by similar sets of rules and laws. I am not denying that.
 
This proves nothing, and for sure not that tribes were formed before Ottoman Empire lol. This text proves nothing about anything we talked about here.

Wait what, is author of this text trying to connect Alexander the Macedon 350 BC, Pyrrhus the Greek general from 300 BC, and Lekë Dukagjini from 1400 AD from Ottoman period???

This author is a joke, this is something unbelievable to read and unrealistic, its closer to fairy tale then to anything realistic, i hope this is not really released by Albanian Institute of History lol. I mean i seen similar stupidities in Croatian, Bosnian and Serbian school books so this is not surprising me too much.

Author is practically shitting over all Albanian noble families and saying Dukagjini were the most worthy one and he connects them to Phyrrus and Alexander the Great haahahahahhaha , wait what is his name again, Kasem Biçoku, hahahhaa Kasem my dear Kasem, he must have eaten hallucogenic mushrooms before writing this text.

Author does not give a single reference to his ridiculously stupid claims unlike Noel Malcolm who is very very strict in giving references and explanations of additional material to enable further study.
This is so stupid that i am just curious into sources and references to see where he pulled this stupidity from, but i doubt that anyone is so naive to claim this, its more likely this funny guy just made up all this.

Why is this funny guy Kasem Biçoku comparing and trying in a senseless way to connect Alexander the Great, Pyrrhus and Leke Dukagjin who was born 1700 years later will probably remain forever mystery to me.

What most of you but also this "historian" dont understand is that history has its timeline, you cant jump from one place of history to another trying to connect dots that are 2000 years away one from another while ignoring all other dots in between. Do you understand that? This is written as SF roman rather then serious text about history. There is not one single person or serious historian who would consider text written like this serious. This reminds me of Croatian school book stories about Tuga and Buga and Slavic arrival to Dalmatian coast. Its pure SF story.

Truth is that Malesia and surroundings in pre-tribal/Ottoman time were ruled by Albanian and Serbian feudal lords and their principalities.

Only after death of Dušan who was ruler of Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and Bulgarians, after decay of his empire, these principalities managed to pop up like mushrooms and become stronger under lead of local feudal lords.

Dukagjini family actually first allied with Serbs and they begged to serve Serbs and particularly Stefan Lazarević, the Serbian despot and prince. But later they allied with Skenderbeg, only to betray Skenderbeg and in the end ally with Ottomans and serve Ottomans for centuries to come.

After Dukagjini and Arianiti families left League of Lezhe, as allies with Ottomans they fought against Skenderbeg.

Read this :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Lezhë#Background

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_principalities

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekë_Dukagjini


There was also Dukakinoğlu Ahmed Pasha, he is Dukagjini family member, but was proud member of Ottoman Empire ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukakinzade_Ahmed_Pasha


But never the less, Dukagjini was a noble Albanian family and it is Leke Dukagjini credit to codify Kanun that tribes will later use as law and codex principle.



Albanian principalities:





- Only after Dusan Empire started to decay most of these principalities and feudal noble land lords manage to pop up and become stronger.
- Only after these principalities and and local noble families started to decay and vanish under Ottoman conquer, clans formed inside of Ottoman Empire out of local villagers in order to protect their cattle lands.
- Dukagjini was not tribal but noble Albanian family, tribes later used its Kanun codex as law and codex hence why they call them tribes of Leke Dukagjini.







Yes i agree with this, this only proves what i was initially claiming that tribes formed out of regular N Albania, Montenegro and Malësia e Madhe population rather then out of some magical emigration out of Bosnia or more specifically Hercegovina. These names that you mention are only some of the biggest and most dominant families in the area. But only after fall of Albanian and Serbian noble families where in fact most of them later joined with Ottomans. Only then tribes as we know them formed under the Ottoman Empire and were allowed to practice their laws and traditions. They formed out of local sheep handlers.

These are not "tribal names" as you say but rather local family names, thet will later develop into tribes that you know.
Similar thing was happening in Serbia and Montenegro also, until all of them finally fall and joined as vassals to Ottomans.

The crumbling Serbian Empire under Stefan Uroš V (called "the Weak") was to be of little resistance to the powerful Ottoman Empire. In light of conflicts and decentralization of the realm, the Ottomans defeated the Serbs at the Battle of Maritsa in 1371, making vassals of the southern governors, soon thereafter, the Emperor died. As Uroš was childless and the nobility could not agree on the rightful heir, the Empire was ruled by semi-independent provincial lords, who often were in feuds with each other. The most powerful of these, Tsar Lazar, a Duke of present-day central Serbia (which had not yet come under the Ottoman yoke), stood against
the Ottomans at the Battle of Kosovo in 1389. The result was indecisive, but it resulted in the subsequent fall of Serbia.

The administration was divided in the following:





After both Albanian and Serbian nobilities fall down and started to serve Ottomans, clans (tribe, fis) formed in 15 century inside of Ottoman Empire out of local sheep handling population. They were allowed to practice their own laws from Kanun and traditions that were specific and native to that part of Ottoman Empire, more specific, Montenegro, Albania, Malesia e Madhe and surroundings. They are just regular Albanian and Montenegrin villagers that used Ottoman Empire to expand because until then they were under medieval feudal command and ownership of noble Albanian and Serbian families that used to ally and marry in between them while exploiting local population.

You are totally wrong in everything you say in this post. You don't know the history of Albania, at least not this part that we are talking, the middle age. The problem is that you like many other Albanians of diaspora learn the history of Albania and Albanians reading crapipedia.
And to illustrate that you are wrong i will make you one single question. When Araniti joined the Ottomans and fought against Scanderbeg?

P. S
Kasem Biçoku is used as a reference in one of the articles cited by you. I start to doubt that you don't even read Wikipedia but simply copy-paste from it.
 
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